Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as Mario is concerned, I think he should have the Roll for Super Mario 3D Land onward as his side special and the Star Spin from Galaxy as his down special. Roll would be a forward-moving attack with an aerial variant where Mario bounces in an upward curve while rolling. Star Spin would be a "get off me" move that also reflects projectiles, in a way also serving as the spiritual successor to the Cape.

Essentially, Roll and Star Spin would be references to Mario's source material that also tie back into Mario's beginner-friendly design in Smash.

Roll seems more like a dash attack to me. Maybe if Dive was the aerial variant? I dunno.

Also, I actually really like Spin reflecting projectiles as a nod to fights like with King Kaliente. I do think it would feel kinda weird if they gave the Down Special air stalling properties though. Assuming your idea includes that. Hopefully I'm not projecting there.

 

[Garteam]

Your friend can't learn to press the X button?

I phrased that poorly, but he had a lot of trouble adapting to Smash's aerial combat. He specifically found it difficult to properly navigate through the air and land attacks on opponents simultaneously.

Don't worry, he knew how to make his character jump generally lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I phrased that poorly, but he had a lot of trouble adapting to Smash's aerial combat. He specifically found it difficult to properly navigate through the air and land attacks on opponents simultaneously.

Don't worry, he knew how to make his character jump generally lol.

It was funnier when I thought he couldn't press the X button, not gonna lie.

 

[Laniv]

Popping in to once again say that Peach's moveset could use a couple of touch-ups. Really lean into the heart motif she has, like replacing her neutral b

And on a smaller note, I think Ness and Lucas' up air moves should be swapped, so that Ness has the headbutt and Lucas has the wave of PSI. I always figured that since Lucas' normals used his powers while Ness used physical strikes for his, he should be the one sending out the wave

 

[StrangeKitten]

Besides, even if you personally don't care about the bells and whistles, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying just what you can grasp and not going to the deep-end. The people that do like the additional features of a character will appreciate it themselves. Casual smash fans aren't exactly pissed they took out tripping to appease the competitively minded and I don't think I've turned on singleplayer in years.

Kinda like how I don't touch the command input characters. I've never played enough of other fighting games to be used to doing that sort of thing, so if I wanted to pick up, say, Terry, it would add an extra learning curve to him that my brain isn't used to. I did dabble briefly to see how I'd do, and it just didn't feel very natural to me. Hero's menu also felt pretty cumbersome to me for the day or so I dabbled with him. As did Steve kinda generally. And that's pretty awesome! Others can enjoy these characters and I can enjoy ones on the simpler side :3

 

[Gorgonzales]

Popping in to once again say that Peach's moveset could use a couple of touch-ups. Really lean into the heart motif she has, like replacing her neutral b

Peach's moveset is quite good, but I do think there's always room for improvement and I would not mind seeing them go all in for the hearts/ribbons/rainbows. I feel like Neutral B is the only real stinker move she has and I wouldn't be sad seeing it go.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Popping in to once again say that Peach's moveset could use a couple of touch-ups. Really lean into the heart motif she has, like replacing her neutral b

Neutral B is fine.

I agree the heart and magic motifs could use more focus, but she's still the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom so having Toads back her up in some moves is still something very fitting for her, especially with how they changed the animations in Ultimate to not only make the Toads protect her willingly but also get them involved in throws.

Now, would I be okay with it being anything other than a counter? Maybe. But the idea of Toads being a core part of her moveset is just perfect.

And on a smaller note, I think Ness and Lucas' up air moves should be swapped, so that Ness has the headbutt and Lucas has the wave of PSI. I always figured that since Lucas' normals used his powers while Ness used physical strikes for his, he should be the one sending out the wave

Lucas has far more of a hand-to-hand combat flair than Ness does, actually. The moves that "use his powers" are animated in a way that show that his strikes aren't just him waving psychic powers around but rather using said powers to enhance his strikes.

Meanwhile, Ness has forward air.

 

[AreJay25]

I'm fine with Peach's moveset for the most part.

Just, uh... if you're going to bring back the short hop multiplier, maybe don't let Float just completely ignore it next time? It still boggles my mind to this day that she's the only character who can essentially bypass a core mechanic of the game lol.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

 

[Kirbeh]

Roll seems more like a dash attack to me. Maybe if Dive was the aerial variant? I dunno.

Also, I actually really like Spin reflecting projectiles as a nod to fights like with King Kaliente. I do think it would feel kinda weird if they gave the Down Special air stalling properties though. Assuming your idea includes that. Hopefully I'm not projecting there.

I'd be down for reinstating Mario Tornado as Down Special and giving it a reflector property on startup. In exchange, the rest of the move could be weaker and only deal a couple hits. Or just make it the Star Spin outright if they so choose. He keeps the reflector/aerial stall that way. (I don't think the air stall is that weird honestly. You could already use the Tornado/Cyclone moves to gain height before.) Then it frees up his Side Special to be changed to something else. I'd personally still like for this one to be the Cap Toss for the options it opens up for mobility and as a secondary projectile.

I think Ground Pound would work fine as a Down Air if they gave you the option to jump cancel it on contact with an opponent or off the ground with the right timing to cancel end lag. And going back to the Zair suggestion from earlier, I think that could be where you place his Dive. Using Zair to dive into Cap Toss would be both fun and useful imo.

And that's pretty much all I'd want for Mario tbh. 3 move changes and 1 addition. He technically only loses the ability to push people with FLUDD and the multi-hit D-Air, but I think the extra movement options and cap projectile offer more potential for player expression and overall utility.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

She could just use a big flower?

 

[Gorgonzales]

I agree the heart and magic motifs could use more focus, but she's still the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom so having Toads back her up in some moves is still something very fitting for her, especially with how they changed the animations in Ultimate to not only make the Toads protect her willingly but also get them involved in throws.

Now, would I be okay with it being anything other than a counter? Maybe. But the idea of Toads being a core part of her moveset is just perfect.

Having the move be repurposed would be fine by me. I do think Toad could be utilized in a cooler way, I'm just not sure what it could be.

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

I'd like it if Daisy threw forward a slowly moving energy wall in the shape of a spinning flower. Could eat projectiles and help her approach game.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd like it if Daisy threw forward a slowly moving energy wall in the shape of a spinning flower. Could eat projectiles and help her approach game.

Giving Daisy Aegis Reflector/Giganter Kai is not a suggestion I ever thought I'd see tbh

This is actually what I'd want for an additional StarFox character assuming they also get a Reflector.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Here is a reworked Mario moveset I made that implements more of his power ups and abilities.

Jab, down smash, get up attack, ledge attack, neutral special, pummel and throws are the same. Forward air is also the same, but now Mario’s fist is engulfed in flames like in his Smash Bros. Ultimate mural art.

Forward Tilt - Cat Swipe: Mario dons cat paws, raises up his arms and swipes down in front of him
Up Tilt - Jump Punch: Like Mario’s original up special, but height of jump is much shorter, doesn’t move forward, and is a single hit (1 coin comes out of an enemy when hit)

Down Tilt - Raccoon Tail Spin: Mario dons a raccoon tail and ears and does a quick crouching spin hitting opponents in front of you with the tail

Forward Smash - Hammer: Charges his hammer behind and above his head and slams it down when let go

Up Smash - Fire Brand: While charging Mario holds up his arm with a small flame emitting from his palm, slowly expands the longer you charge and bursts when let go

Dash Attack - Cat Slide: Mario dons cat paws, pounces forward, and slides a bit

Neutral Air - Star Spin: Mario does a quick spin, first time using it has Mario rise up a little bit

Back Air - Raccoon Tail Swipe: Mario dons Raccoon tail and ears, sticks out his bottom and performs a multi hit tail swipe


Up Air - Upward Cat Swipe: Mario dons cat paws and swipes one paw above him in an arc

Down Air - Ground Pound: Slams down to the ground, bottom first


Side Special - Cappy Throw: Mario throws his Cappy hat and will stay out spinning for a couple seconds causing slight damage and knock back

Side Special with Cappy out - Dive: While Cappy is out spinning you can press side special again to have Mario perform a dive, you can dive into Cappy to bounce off him helping with recovery, if you’re still in the air after bounce you can throw Cappy again, but can not bounce of him again


Up Special - Flight: Functions similarly to Pit’s Up Special, alternates between Mario wearing a cape, wing cap and raccoon ears & tail (the change is purely cosmetic)

Down Special - F.L.U.D.D.: Changes all special moves, F.L.U.D.D. is always visibly out in this state (this might be excessive, but I don’t care )

F.L.U.D.D. Neutral Special - Squirt Nozzle : Functions the same as Mario’s current down special

F.L.U.D.D. Side Special - Turbo Nozzle: Slow charge up, huge burst forward on ground, useless in the air

F.L.U.D.D. Up Special on ground - Hover Nozzle: Raises Mario up water is sprayed below him allowing him to hover above the ground briefly, this move deals no damage but can trip opponents


F.L.U.D.D. Up Special in the air - Rocket Nozzle: The more you charge it the higher you will boost upward, and the more damage and knock back the burst does

Final Smash: Mario pulls out and uses a Star, he becomes rainbow colored and quickly charges forward, when you hit at least one opponent it transitions into a cutscene of Mario quickly jumping up some platforms to hit a ? block at the top, a Mega Mushroom comes out turning Mario giant who then jumps down ground pounding his opponents blasting them away

 

[Laniv]

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

Well, if Peach absolutely has to have Toad and she shouldn't there is a fairly recent option for Daisy to use:

Having the move be repurposed would be fine by me. I do think Toad could be utilized in a cooler way, I'm just not sure what it could be.

Maybe as, oh say, a fighter?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd like it if Daisy threw forward a slowly moving energy wall in the shape of a spinning flower. Could eat projectiles and help her approach game.

Same reaction as Kirbeh , but I thought you were saying that Daisy would be able to eat her Aegis Reflector thingy...Something tells me bedtime is eminent.

 

[Garteam]

I mean, I would argue Smash Bros. itself has the reached the point of being too large scale to be practicable. It's why Sakurai has spent the past 5-ish years telling people not to expect EiH or a roster of such size again.

A good chunk of Ultimate's cast is already unlikely to return for the next roster's base game. This thread already spends all day, every day arguing about what that exact number (and who that) might be, but cuts are bound to happen regardless.

I also disagree with the notion that wanting more for characters is viewing them as "functions." I wouldn't care to give characters new options if I wasn't already invested in them, let alone play the game. Plus, there are plenty of cases where one might like a character but dislike their execution in Smash.

I also disagree with trying new things in gameplay to be neglectful of casuals. New tools/gameplay features do not, and generally have not, been for the competitive audience when it comes to Smash. Final Smashes in their original form were purely for casual play and tripping was- a mechanic...

Even the additions of new attacks from 64 to Melee would be neutral additions in terms of casual/competitive. Characters being able to do "cool new thing" services players of all skill levels.

I don't want them to cull the roster in service of new mechanics, but I would just as easily say that it'd be kneecapping the rest of the game to focus solely on the roster size. The massive roster is one of Smash's major selling points now, but I don't think it's quite fair to say that casuals (or any player really) wouldn't be concerned about gameplay or other content.
As for the last point, generally speaking I do agree. I'm one of the people you're talking about in fact. And I have been consistently ().
I'm already expecting to go into next game missing some combination of most of my favorite characters, (like )

Again, I don't want a huge roster culling for the sake of it (nor do I expect one honestly), but if cuts are already going to happen, I simply disagree with the idea that they shouldn't try new things because it might take resources away from the old. That was already a given.

Last thing I'll add is that you could still add a new move or mechanic or what have you without completely decimating the roster. Adding several changes like past games did with a smaller roster is probably unlikely but I think you're overestimating how intensive it'd be to add just one thing (maybe two if you're feeling spicy.) Especially so if they do wind up using Ultimate as a base, which I imagine they might, given the time they spent recreating all the stages and updating characters, etc. (And historically they've always reused/recycled when they could.)

To be perfectly honest, your comment kind of reads like overcorrecting for the sake of protecting the roster size. They couldn't possibly do "x" because "y" has to remain untouched. No offense intended. I just feel people will just have to make peace with an odd 10 or dozen or so cuts (give or take), and I do expect Sakurai to try something new, even if it's some small baby step change or revisiting an earlier idea like air smashes or something.

That's fair, but I think 10-20 roster cuts is an inevitability regardless of what a new Smash looks like (assuming Ultimate's base is the absolute limit for a Smash game). Substantive mechanical overalls across the roster will exacerbate that further, but I will admit that will largely depend on what these new mechanics look like.

Adding back directional airdodges, wavedashing, and other mechanics that don't require new animations? That's probably not intensive on development at all. Giving each veteran a new move with new animations and hurt boxes? That's going to definitely require a good deal of work and likely result in less veterans and possibly newcomers as a result. A new story mode? Assuming it's not outsourced to another studio, that seems to be the biggest timesink for dev time because it's effectively another game in terms of labour (if what Sakurai said is true).

The next Smash definitely has to walk a tightrope in terms of old and new. It'll be interesting to see how Sakurai strikes that balance. I think he'll lean more towards old because that's how he's traditionally handled Smash, but now's the time

I want to highlight this part because this is what I feel a lot of these arguments devolve into:

I never prescribed intent to Kirbeh wanting more mechanics, I simply wanted to offer an alternative perspective of the tradeoffs that would come with the sweeping changes we saw in Melee now that we're at this scale of production. They're not advocating for these changes because they "want to cut the roster in half", even if there may be potential, unforeseen consequences of some veterans needing to be cut to accommodate the workload. We all want the next Smash to be the best game it can.

Ironically, your incredibly passive-aggressive meme does exactly what you were complaining about: it derails and emotionally escalates an otherwise reasonable conversation between the board using a strawman argument no one holds.

 

[Noipoi]

Having the move be repurposed would be fine by me. I do think Toad could be utilized in a cooler way, I'm just not sure what it could be.

He becomes the announcer

 

[Perkilator]

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

This is where changing Daisy’s specials to reflect her playable appearance in Wonder would, IMO, do wonders for her.

Pun entirely intended.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I feel like F.L.U.D.D. is an awkward fit in Mario's kit for beginner, learning the game reasons. Squirtle is the only other character that has a move like that. Cape, meanwhile, is a reflector, and a good chunk of the cast has those. Cape feels a lot more fitting.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He becomes the announcer

MaRIo!

LuIGI!

PrINCeSS PEAcH!

B-B-B-BOWZEEEEER!

 

[Kirbeh]

Same reaction as Kirbeh , but I thought you were saying that Daisy would be able to eat her Aegis Reflector thingy...Something tells me bedtime is eminent.

Bedtime is indeed outstanding and remarkable.

Jokes aside, have a good night!

That's fair, but I think 10-20 roster cuts is an inevitability regardless of what a new Smash looks like (assuming Ultimate's base is the absolute limit for a Smash game). Substantive mechanical overalls across the roster will exacerbate that further, but I will admit that will largely depend on what these new mechanics look like.

Adding back directional airdodges, wavedashing, and other mechanics that don't require new animations? That's probably not intensive on development at all. Giving each veteran a new move with new animations and hurt boxes? That's going to definitely require a good deal of work and likely result in less veterans and possibly newcomers as a result. A new story mode? Assuming it's not outsourced to another studio, that seems to be the biggest timesink for dev time because it's effectively another game in terms of labour (if what Sakurai said is true).

The next Smash definitely has to walk a tightrope in terms of old and new. It'll be interesting to see how Sakurai strikes that balance. I think he'll lean more towards old because that's how he's traditionally handled Smash, but now's the time

Now's the time? But for what? You can't just not finish your sentences using cliffhangers like that.

But yeah, I think that's fair as well.

I'm not expecting anything too much for either cuts or gameplay changes. I just hope that whenever they do decide to do a major shakeup, they take the time to actually revisit and touch up the vets some more.

I never prescribed intent to Kirbeh wanting more mechanics, I simply wanted to offer an alternative perspective of the tradeoffs that would come with the sweeping changes we saw in Melee now that we're at this scale of production. They're not advocating for these changes because they "want to cut the roster in half", even if there may be potential, unforeseen consequences of some veterans needing to be cut to accommodate the workload. We all want the next Smash to be the best game it can.

Ironically, your incredibly passive-aggressive meme does exactly what you were complaining about: it derails and emotionally escalates an otherwise reasonable conversation between the board using a strawman argument no one holds.

God forbid we have respectful disagreements on game design when we can just mock and belittle people who don't think like we do.

Okay, this I will contest you on though. I don't think Idon posted that with the intent of calling you out in particular, but with the way these conversations go, the meme feels appropriate because it does happen like that enough to be noticeable. In this case it does feel like you're the one assuming their intent as an insult directed at you. It could easily be no more than a meme to lighten the mood while poking fun at the nature of speculation conversation in general.

Pointing out a potential misunderstanding in our conversation (that's seemingly common among the speculation scene) and posting a meme about it doesn't imply ill intent on their part. If you don't find it to be funny or even outright dislike it that's fine, but you're creating the potential escalation by immediately assuming their intent.

He becomes the announcer

I wanna hear Toad say "Sephiroth!" and "Failure..." now.

This is where changing Daisy’s specials to reflect her playable appearance in Wonder would, IMO, do wonders for her.

Pun entirely intended.

Pleeease. I'd be so happy if they gave her the Bubble and Grappling Vine. Maybe even change the Up Special into a combination of the Boosting Spin Jump and Parachute Cap. It'd basically be like a more offense geared Parasol with less airtime on the parachute.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But people like Sunshine?

Insofar as people like all Mario games. But it's easily the least popular 3D Mario game.

And even people that like Sunshine don't necessarily like FLUDD.

Only thing I really wanted more with Smash's take on F.L.U.D.D.(at the time) was allowing you to use more nozzles akin to a temporary moveset switch(but only for specials).

Of all the abilities FLUDD has in Sunshine, they went with the least useful one for Smash.

Hover, Rocket and Turbo would all have been infinitely more useful than Squirt.

Toad Shield could be made into a counter that actually does something for you, but I'm much more concerned with Daisy having the move despite having no prior Toad connections. Dunno what you'd replace it with, but I'd like it to be replaced with something.

They should both replace them with a Parasol Shield.

I feel like F.L.U.D.D. is an awkward fit in Mario's kit for beginner, learning the game reasons. Squirtle is the only other character that has a move like that. Cape, meanwhile, is a reflector, and a good chunk of the cast has those. Cape feels a lot more fitting.

Replace FLUDD with Cappy, so Mario can do this:

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

FLUDD is a move that finally makes sense in Ultimate. Its push is way more exaggerated than in the past, it's a painful move at high level against some characters that does a lot for Mario. It messes up quite a few recoveries with essentially no effort. It can also disrupt aerial approaches.
At lower levels of play, it does quite a few things: teaches you "charge and store" type special moves, the importance of edgeguarding since that's what you naturally end up using it for, and also the importance of positioning since while it does no damage, it puts opponents in a position where it's easy to jump and f-air them. And it shows you how apparently useless moves usually are not actually useless but add a new dimension to your gameplan.
I think it suits him, because Mario is not exactly a beginner character anymore. That's more Kirby or Pit nowadays. Mario is designed more like your first main once you've finally understood how to play the game.


There's some stuff I'd change about him though. More than anything, I don't like how optimal Mario doesn't do a lot of Mario things, he mostly spams endless u-air combos like he's on cocaine.

My changes:
-make him smile! Other scrimblos like Banjo and Pac-man get to keep their personalities, why does Mario have to be grumpy? Making him move more like he does in Wonder in general would be a good change.
-neutral air becomes the current down air, and the new down air becomes the ground pound. This way, you get to put a stall and fall in his moveset (since those are everywhere now, and the ground pound is a pretty iconic move to Mario) while keeping the neat SMW reference. This would also make his approaches a little less mindless than just jumping and using n-air.
-up smash is not the headbutt anymore, instead he throws Cappy who spins around Mario in a spiral, finishing above his head as Mario catches him again. Cappy would be a disjoint while he spins, you can't interrupt the move unless you hit Mario. This way you reference Odyssey in a meaningful way, and introduce the ideas that moves that use things that are not part of the character's body are usually intangible and also that smash attacks can have other uses aside from being big finishers (like Ness's and Lucas's are also reflectors). This Cappy would shield you from projectiles from example.

These changes, in my opinion, would 1. introduce more stuff from the actual games 2. introduce more mechanics that you see throughout many movesets in his gameplay, which I think is more the point of the character nowadays, and 3. make Mario feel a little more like Mario even in terms of playstyle; while also 4. not being too intrusive to his general style, changing n-air is probably the biggest thing.

 

[Oracle Link]

Clover for Smash (just finnished undertale yellow pacifist) nah i rather have frisk!

But oin a diffrent note:
In the Next smash well probably have BOTW/ TOTK Link, TOTK Ganondorf and impa who most likely would be from AOC
So should zelda follow suit... No i think she should join toon link and be smol:

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