rock, paper, tier list.

[Homelessvagrant]

http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/Rock_paper_scissors.jpg (http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net)

Okay, it's easy to tell that Sakurai is putting most of his posts on the influence of characters. Every week has one or more character updates though they may not all be revealed character. And so far from what we can tell he's been really putting emphasis on balancing out the tier lists. Yoshi's up B having recovery properties, Link's B moves completely being overhauled, and Bowser (along with a few other characters) having super armor this can hardly be ignored.

http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/donkeykong_070712c-l.jpg (http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net)

With Melee the fact was that the game was rushed. The sloppy addition of clones lack of certain stages and trophies plus multiple characters sucking or being nerfed; it's not hard to notice. Brawl has an ample more time and production, a bigger staff, and a more technology to work with. But that doesn't mean all the characters will be perfectly balanced, it'll just be closer to we're melee got.


So here's my point: think of a method that would allow all fighters to have a chance. In a utopian way of thinking fast, balanced, and heavy characters should work like rock, paper, scissors. with heavy being greater than balanced (they can take weaker blows with super armor and exchange for stronger blows), weaker characters being stronger than heavy characters (they can run all around heavy characters working against the lag of power moves), and balanced characters being stronger than fast characters (It's easier to make a hit and the hits are stronger).

Now we all know that this was not so with melee, fast characters like fox, shiek, and marth had extremely fast speed coupled with attack power and range. Also powerful characters like bowsers were crippled without the needed super armor. But with brawl the possibilities are endless.

why would such a system be good for brawl? Because the tier list. Now lets pretend that the three top tiers are: Mario, DK, and Fox. Their both from three power settings so they would cancel each other out. But this isn't the latest or most important tidbit. Fox would be weak against all balanced characters so people like link, Samus, etc. would have the advantage over him as well. This would cause people to try more characters rather than the top three and would make the game more than a tournament full of foxes, Shieks, and Marths. this concept can be seen in other games too (though most are more complex). Do you think this works well in brawl? What are your ideas?

Things to keep in mind is that sakurai now knows of the more advanced techniques and will most likely impliment it into the game to make it more fair or find a way to get rid of it for the same reason. so wavedashing and Shffling or even desynching aren't really valid.

[pkmnrngr]

not your best responed to article homeless good job though

[red stone]

rock punches hole through paper

[Cinder]

Yeah, I see what you mean...giving otherwise unstoppable characters an easy to take advantage of weakness...but I saw where you said the words wavedashing and "aren't really valid" in the same sentence...:rotfl:...yeah right!

[Florida]

Paper > Tier List

[Leobenmc]

Oh god, I pray for such a system - but imagine how hard it would be to implement. I assume even though Sakurai may have seemingly created this Utopian tier system at the start, the Smashers would find some glitches to exploit/technique that's incredibly effective to shed this "Every Character has a Chance".

I still think that you will see a High Tier with fast chars, and I think the Tiers will be a tiny bit harder to distinguish than they were in Melee - however homeless, that is an incredible vision of the future you have there. We can only hope.

[ClarkJables]

besides, tier lists don't even really matter that much, its basically whatever character is popular and used by the most people at that particular time

[killbeast301]

Don't you know? Tires don exits, and the same will be true for brawl

Originally posted by guy below me

I prefer Nuke, Foot, Cockroach
lmao

[SenorPresidente]

I prefer Nuke, Foot, Cockroach

[axemangx]

Scissors cuts the tier list in half.
Thats proof enough why there really is no tier list.

[Florida]

besides, tier lists don't even really matter that much, its basically whatever character is popular and used by the most people at that particular time

How does the tier list not matter? Obviously the character that is highest up tier-wise, has the most chance winning in a match, assuming both players are equally skilled. There's a reason why so little people play Pichu, you know ;)

But hopefully Brawl will be mostly balanced out. I'm all for that, since such a ****** character like Mewtwo gets almost no attention because he sucks as a general character. >.>

[axemangx]

People. There is no tier list.

It only matters how skilled a person is at the character.

[shadowmm151]

why would such a system be good for brawl? Because the tier list. Now lets pretend that the three top tiers are: Mario, DK, and Fox. Their both from three power settings so they would cancel each other out. But this isn't the latest or most important tidbit. Fox would be weak against all balanced characters so people like link, Samus, etc. would have the advantage over him as well. This would cause people to try more characters rather than the top three and would make the game more than a tournament full of foxes, Shieks, and Marths. this concept can be seen in other games too (though most are more complex). Do you think this works well in brawl? What are your ideas?

Um...Just thought I'd point out that Samus is actually a heavy character. In the game's mechanics she's actually the 3rd heaviest character, putting her over Ganondorf. Weird but on the same note it explains why she just never dies.

[SenorPresidente]

Um...Just thought I'd point out that Samus is actually a heavy character. In the game's mechanics she's actually the 3rd heaviest character, putting her over Ganondorf. Weird but on the same note it explains why she just never dies.

If the rock paper scissors were to be made i guess they wold downgrade her to a balance character. I always taught it was strange she was so heavy. She being so slim and everything.

[PsychoIncarnate]

For instance...everyone assumes Mewtwo sucks because he is Lowest tier...

But I have yet to loose against anyone as Mewtwo yet...Especially 1 Vs. 1...It is soo fun playing around with your opponent like cat and mouse with them basically being able to do nothing to stop me

[Caael]

It's hardly tier list. Tiers are just mainly to represent which characters are used most in tourneys. They dont give any real indication of strength. Bowser and Ganondorf are the most powerful characters, as they inflict the most damge with attacks, but they're not used in tourneys much, because they're both so easy to counter with other characters, which are the ones higher up in the tier list.


Dont shoot me down, ' Smash Scholars', you know i'm right.

[pkmnrngr]

wow no updateds on this for 8 days then people started posting.
Tires don Exists. up with mewtwo down with tiers

[PsychoIncarnate]

wow no updateds on this for 8 days then people started posting.
Tires don Exists. up with mewtwo down with tiers

You gotta problem with Mewtwo?

[axemangx]

Ganondorf was a clone, people would've rather used Falcon.


Why else did Isai use Falcon instead of Ganondorf?

[pkmnrngr]

no i love mewtwo:bigthumbu

[Homelessvagrant]

eh, I thought this thread had died long ago. And with it my hopes and dreams. :crying:

oh well, of to read more threads.

[ethanrodgers223]

Love this idea. I agree 100%.

[chaos_Leader]

I like the concept, I really like it. And its actually plausible to boot.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Nice concept.

The only problem I can see with this system is increased character counter picking.

[Homelessvagrant]

Nice concept.

The only problem I can see with this system is increased character counter picking.

I'm sorry I don't understand? Can you explain.

[red stone]

the tier list is a manifestation from the usefulness of a character.

[Falco&Victory]

People. There is no tier list.

It only matters how skilled a person is at the character.

Ok, I am going to punch something.

TIER LISTS ARE NOT CHARACTER RANKINGS! THEY ARE A POPULARITY CONTEST BASED ON WHAT CHARACTERS DO BEST IN 1V1 BALANCED MATCHES DURING TOURNEYS!

Thank you

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Could you please clarify Falco&Victory? I mean...wouldn't it be considered character ranking because if people choose the popular character based on their usefullness in 1v1, then they're "strongest" wouldn't they be? I dunno, it just kinda seems weird or something. I figured tiers represented characters that were played the most because they were the strongest. (Not in the damage sense, but all around)

P.S. Sorry, not trying to troll or anything, just wondering.

[McFly]

It's an amazing concept, and if you can't see that then you don't really know what you're talking about. I'm not one for extremes, but in this case, it's true. If this were flawless, it would be entirely dependant upon the skill of the player and never on the character used. It's phenomenal.

[adumbrodeus]

People. There is no tier list.

It only matters how skilled a person is at the character.

Ultimately skill matters the most, but with equally skilled players in all areas, who's gonna win 9/10 times, a marth player, or a Bowser player?

Bowser just has insane weaknesses, making it require an enormous amount of additional skill to make a player be able to beat a Marth with Bowser.

It's not rocket science, the tier list is essentially, "at the highest levels of play, assuming all else equal, this is how powerful the characters are compared to each other".



For a military example, that's like saying that a spear has an even chance against an automatic rifle. Sure, a the spear can win, but only if the circumstance is wildly in favor of it, which generally comes from far superior skills.






As for the topic at hand.... no, just no.

In doing so, you inherently disadvantage certain characters in opposing others, detracting from the skill emphasis. Sure, there are inequalities, but forcing character picks based on this model is going to create an environment where skill doesn't matter, it's just getting to pick the character that is going to win against your opponent, unless it's an insumermountible gulf in skill.

[Homelessvagrant]

As for the topic at hand.... no, just no.

In doing so, you inherently disadvantage certain characters in opposing others, detracting from the skill emphasis. Sure, there are inequalities, but forcing character picks based on this model is going to create an environment where skill doesn't matter, it's just getting to pick the character that is going to win against your opponent, unless it's an insumermountible gulf in skill.


Point understood and that I understand would be a disadvantage to such a sytem but I considered this system with what is already out. People should be able to play the player they like and any real good player can win no matter the disadvantage. We can only hope that the seprations of tiers aren't that vast.

I guess with such things you have toconsider the lesser of the two evils.

[Zenjamin]

besides, tier lists don't even really matter that much, its basically whatever character is popular and used by the most people at that particular time

dont be stupid. falco is just plain better then DK... by far.

its not that he is more cool or more popular.



its been critically debated and quantifiably proven again and again.
some characters and just plain better then others. saying "its all skill" is theory craft.
go out and prove that people who calculate things like speed, lag frames, recovery distance, knockback, kill moves, damage per second, grab distance, ect...

hell, just look at this chart (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025)
each rating was given between two individuals with equal skill. popularity has nothing to do with it. characters are tournament popular because they are better.

[McFly]

Come to think of it, it shouldn't be a rock/paper/scissors method. It should be more like a Triforce. Where each side has an equal advantage against the other two. Completely balanced. Each side pulling and pushing at the same time.

[Homelessvagrant]

Come to think of it, it shouldn't be a rock/paper/scissors method. It should be more like a Triforce. Where each side has an equal advantage against the other two. Completely balanced. Each side pulling and pushing at the same time.


The only problem with that is that it's completely impossible. Ever game has advantages and disadvantages given to said players. Sakurai can make it close to even but he could never make it entirely even. The rock scissor paper idea is nothing more than a patch to hide uneven matches.

[McFly]

Of course, what I said is just theoretical, not practical.

[ArtieBoy]

this topic is FTW!

[Takeshi245]

Come to think of it, it shouldn't be a rock/paper/scissors method. It should be more like a Triforce. Where each side has an equal advantage against the other two. Completely balanced. Each side pulling and pushing at the same time.In order to make a completely balanced fighting game, every character would have to have every ability the same, which would make the game very dull and create poor sales for it. If you want more information, look at this: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/ that's where I got my information from.

[Homelessvagrant]

In order to make a completely balanced fighting game, every character would have to have every ability the same, which would make the game very dull and create poor sales for it. If you want more information, look at this: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/ that's where I got my information from.

Well that's not given fact but just belief, just because a fighter with multiple unique fighters has yet to be accomplished doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Teh Popo]

dont be stupid. falco is just plain better then DK... by far.

its not that he is more cool or more popular.



its been critically debated and quantifiably proven again and again.
some characters and just plain better then others. saying "its all skill" is theory craft.
go out and prove that people who calculate things like speed, lag frames, recovery distance, knockback, kill moves, damage per second, grab distance, ect...

hell, just look at this chart (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025)
each rating was given between two individuals with equal skill. popularity has nothing to do with it. characters are tournament popular because they are better.

I respect the tier list, but it's not scripture. the fact that the tier list is updated at all indicates that it is not perfect, and could be wrong. somebody could discover this new, amazingly broken Mewtwo technique that would make him easily better than Fox, hypothetically speaking.

it's best to say "Fox is currently better than DK."

[Zenjamin]

I respect the tier list, but it's not scripture. the fact that the tier list is updated at all indicates that it is not perfect, and could be wrong. somebody could discover this new, amazingly broken Mewtwo technique that would make him easily better than Fox, hypothetically speaking.

it's best to say "Fox is currently better than DK."


thats right, its not scripture. scripture is not testable. scripture is unchanging and not subject to human varibles and patterns. scripture is a work of theroy and faith and not to be proven or disproven by logic.

no charts like the one wes gave us, combined with the data from professional success rates, are not scripture but a science. varables can be controled, isoladed, and tested. weaknesses and strengths can be quantified.

in other words, i agree with you. because sience states that new data can alwys alter the outcome. no such thing and a "perfect" scientific fact...

however, smash and been anilized to death over a very long perion of time. there is very little, if any, new data to be descovered.

so its accurate to say "witht he data we currently have avalible to us; Fox is currently better than DK" it is also just as accurate to say "with the data we currently have avalible to us; The earth is round"