Clone or Not? Let's Discuss!

[Skillface]

I'm not sure. I've heard that the spike can be pulled off, but there's no fire and it's hardly noticable.


Edit: Quick offtopic question, how do I put an image in my sig?

I tried using the tags, but all it does is turn up as a link. Thanks :P

[ylink_underestimted]

Aww, I really liked using it. It makes n00bs go "WTF wuz dat?!" haha

Under the box there's there's a check box that says "Show your signature"
Don't worry, when I first joined, no one helped me...XD

[Skillface]

Yeah, now all we have is noobs going "OMG WTF SO FAST H4X"


Yeah I know how to do that, it's just when I go to edit my sig then press "preview", the link in the image tags just appears as a link. :P

[ylink_underestimted]

OOOH! Ok I see what you mean.
Put in the [youareel="a address"]put the image code here[/earl]

What I love the most is when n00bs go "Haoo da f*ck u doo dat wit Jiglepuph?"
I hope Toon Link keeps the fire part tho...

[Skillface]

It would be even cooler if it was WW-styled fire, as well.

Tried it, it still shows up as that vvv

Thanks for the help though :P

[Parassita]

I have a feeling that we'll be seeing a lot of Marths, Ikes, and Foxes (Plus Falco and Wolf... luigi-fied Foxes... -_- Still don't mind them though!) online in North America. Toon Link will be a fun counter to them with his speed. "HEYZ! YOU GOEZ ANDS COUNTERAZ ME UBER TACKS!" is what all the no0bs will now be saying.

[JoJoRukus]

to JoJoRukus..... imo wolf isnt anything like fox or falco...(except the landmaster, but that's a diff story) even his b attacks aren't like fox or falcos. and im really sad about tl, but i heard that his fs was different... a flood or something

You and Kuji didn't really get my point: the "clones" are different enough to merit different levels of play and make them fun to play. And yes, I consider Wolf a "clone", but look at my definition of clones again. He is even more different from Fox than Falco, but I can still call him a "clone" because he was based in Fox's image. Still, clones are fun to play and shouldn't be cast aside because they are based on another character.

[Vortok]

In my opinion, this thread shows what matters and why making Toon Link that way he is was the correct decision. Just about every person that says they mained Young Link (basically Toon Link with different graphics) said they're fairly happy that he turned out like this, instead of a completely different moveset. For all the other people, who don't play him a lot, it doesn't matter too much if they wanted another moveset or not. They'd still be playing their main either way.

When I was a less experienced Smash player, clones (speaking about Melee) seemed nearly identical to me. As I've gotten better, I've realized how much the subtle differences can impact how you play a character. Nowadays, about the only clone in Melee I won't play is Pichu... which kinda raises my last point.

It doesn't really matter if a character is a clone or not. What matters is if they're equally effective/quite diverse, or if one is just clearly superior to the other in just about every way. Pikachu vs. Pichu is a good example of the second, as would be Mario vs. Doc (not quite as pronounced, but overall most people agree Doc is just better). C. Falcon and Ganondorf are a good example of the first option. Although their movesets are very similar, they play so differently that it didn't really matter. Marth/Roy players will prolly attest the same, though the difference is much smaller there. Fox and Falco look very similar at first glance, but any experienced Smash player know the playstyles of the two are quite different.

Point being: If both Link and Toon Link are good characters in Brawl, than it doesn't matter. We get two good characters.

[Parassita]

Woah, that pretty much summed up the argument. Never thought of all those points before... thing is, I do disagree that Young Link and Toon Link are nearly identical. They're actually quite different if you ask me.

[ylink_underestimted]

Hooray for Vortok!

I actually wanted a different moveset for Toon Link though, because just about every Toon Link hater said that he'd be a clone. But I always thought of Fawriel's point with Falco's Pillar Combo: People say they "hate" clones, but enjoy spamming the Pillar Combo.

Also to JoJoRukas: From just reading your last post here, it sounds like you don't mind "clones" moveset wise, but calling a character a clone based on the image isn't really an excuse to call him/her a clone (though I do think Wolf is a clone somewhat only based on the moveset).

[Parassita]

Yeah, I was excited when I saw an image of Toon Link just imagining what wacky kind of moveset he would have, but... he didn't. I like him better than normal Link and he's definitely different in some of his attacks. The cell-shaded style just makes him more of a must-have.

[ylink_underestimted]

But he's not cel-shaded in Brawl...the smoke from his Bombs are though...
I'm not gonna jump to conclusions and say that I already like him better than TP Link, but I'm guessing I'm going to like him better.

[Parassita]

He has a style that is similar to his cell-shaded style then, it looks close enough IMO. I shouldn't jump to conclusions either, but I've seen quite a few Youtube videos with Toon Link, and I know I'll use him. After I unlock him, I can main him.

[R.Y.N.O]

I am aware that Toon Link is probably going to be god tier, but I'd sacrafice that to see my little hero pull off some of his original moves. The Deku Leaf, Wind Waker, Skull Hammer, and Hurricane Spin are part of the charm of Toon Link.

Here's how they could have done him if they had enough time but still keep him a clone:
1) ^Special can be charaged, but when unleashing it, you can move around (Hurricane Spin)
2) This technique wasn't really in the Wind Waker or Phantom Hourglass, but it'd still be cool. Toon Link can use his bows after pulling his bomb out to shot a bomb arrow.
3) The boomerang could have emphasized "great" control abilities.
4) His Final Smash should have been different.

If the Toon Link model replaced OoT Link, I'd be okay with it. So, I'll perceive it from that perspective.
He uses his Wind Waker with one of his throws.

[Parassita]

He uses his Wind Waker with one of his throws.

He does? I never noticed that...!

[SmashBro99]

vid plz? ^_^

[Parassita]

I really doubt a good video can be found. There's nothing really good with Toon Link in it yet. I think I'll just take his word for it.

[Moon Monkey]

Toon links down a is different from from links down a, it's kind of like Sonic's foot stomp move
and toon link does not have the gale bomerang. it is also possible that one of these links will have wall jumping abilities

[E-Jolteon]

Well, clone or not, toon Link is a heck of a lot faster than normal Link. I think I'll main him clone or not.

[Rhubarbo]

Toon Link shouldn't have been a clone because he is too similar. Now, it's a little to early to make assumptions, but most of his special seem the same. If the gave him the spin attack, he should have been able to move (Mario Tornado) while doing it.

Also, they shouldn't have given him the Tri-Force Slash because it's not like Y.Link players would have to adapt to anything in regards to Final Smashes (they weren't in Melee).

Like a I mentioned earlier, I think Brawl was rushed. I don't think Sakurai would have intentionally given Wolf a Landmaster when:

A) He never uses them

B) He has the Wolfen

C) Fox and Falco already have them

Also why did they have to make Ganondorf's FS identical to Falcons. It should have been like Giga Bowser or maybe a Landmaster that shoots fire instead of lasers and rolls instead of barrel rolling...

[MatthewDanger]

im pissed at the makers of zelda for giving link all the same moves game after game. like seriously oot link had a sword and shield and bombs, and then so did tp, and before that mm link hadthe same stuff. lazy *******s making clones

[ylink_underestimted]

@ Matthew Danger: That wouldn't really make him "Link" though. It's like putting Master Chief in, let's say, Halo 3 and suddenly making him an Elite.

@ Rhubaro: I always thought Ganon would turn into some sort of Giga Bowser (Warlock Ganon from OoT)
I also thought Wolf would at least have the Wolfen...and that Toon Link would use the Wind Waker in the FS

@ Parassita: I hope you know what cel-shading is, because Toon Link and Ike aren't CS'd anymore like in their respective games.

[Jash]

Clone or not, Toon Link is ganna be awesome. :laugh:

[Krell]

Toon Link is the most blatant clone in all of Brawl, which I find funny, because he had the most potential for a unique move set out of any of the clones.

[staindgrey]

I began to gripe about Toon Link being a clone, since I pictured his Deku Leaf and Wind Waker being used to change things up a bit, but now that I think of it... I'm very happy with this clone thing. Maybe Sakurai knows more than we think we do- wait, he DOES know more than we think we do. He made the game.

Link is strong, but not fast enough for my taste. I almost always went with Young Link in Melee and welcomed the Link moveset with a smaller, quicker body. Now, even though I at first complained, it seems I got my wish I didn't even know I had! Assuming Link is the same speed as in Melee, and Toon Link is a tad bit quicker and, as pointed out, jumps higher (plus, did anyone notice his aerial down A smash is instantaneous? You can't do a little leapfrog from character to character like before, and I wonder if it does more damage...) then I'll most definitely use Toon Link more than I will TP Link, despite his awesome look. Even if it's the same, I think this moveset is perfected, no use in making a different inferior one, right?

[TidalSpiral]

I don't think it was rushed, I think it was just a sheer content issue. They sacrificed some more uniqueness building for more levels or music or items or assist trophies. Hell, all the modes are crazy, and I'm sure all the SSE bosses have their own fighting mechanics which took plenty of time to create. I'm happy with the differences we DO have between the similar characters (confirmation of Falco and Wolf different A moves made me very pleased).

[ylink_underestimted]

I agree with Krell. A lot of Toon Link fans I know made some really good Movesets for him, and the majority included the Deku Leaf or Wind Waker.

@ staindgrey: Toon Link looks like he's YLink from Melee with a different look and some different moves. So assuming that that's true, most YLink players will be pleased with that fact. :)
About the Dair (you confused me a little when you said aerial down A smash...just call it a Dair :chuckle:), I've heard that it's been purposely Fast-Falled like that. Plus, what was wrong with the bounce in Melee? I sincerely hope that hasn't been removed, along with the Fire Spike :(

[RenegadeRaven]

SO WHAT? Why is everyone making such a big deal out of it. It's not as if clones are going to ruin brawl. I'd rather have a speed character and a power character with the same move set than one balanced character. I loved playing with Falco because of the fact that he looked cooler and was just as bad *** as Fox.

It's not like you could be a link player and then suddenly choose Toon Link and be just as bad ***.

Sure I wouldn't mind him having a bit of a different move set but this news is nothing to have a heart attack over.

[staindgrey]

Ylink: .....that's what I said lol

But I think his Dair (finally figured out what that meant, thanks) is meant to give more of a punch, but he can't hop from head to head, as that's what it looked like to me in a video I watched of him using that move. That was my point. With Toon Link, you simply trade multiple hits for one stronger one.

Oh, and a sidenote: I was hoping for a Majora's Mask young Link, where vB would change between masks with a final smash of Fierce Diety. Am I the only one that thought that would be incredibly cool?

::EDIT::
My eyes deceived me. You can still hop from head to head, you simply come down a lot faster. I guess that'll make the move more effective if you're right above your opponent; harder to dodge or counter.

[ylink_underestimted]

SO WHAT? Why is everyone making such a big deal out of it. It's not as if clones are going to ruin brawl. I'd rather have a speed character and a power character with the same move set than one balanced character. I loved playing with Falco because of the fact that he looked cooler and was just as bad *** as Fox.

It's not like you could be a link player and then suddenly choose Toon Link and be just as bad ***.

Sure I wouldn't mind him having a bit of a different move set but this news is nothing to have a heart attack over.

Who's having a heart attack? All I said was that Toon Link could've been the character that had a unique Moveset (which is true)...if you were directing towards me that is...

@ staindgrey: Oh it sounded like you didn't want Toon Link to be hoppy...
Also, do you know what Fast-Falling is? To me it doesn't sound like you do for some reason :ohwell:
Was there a vid of TL being all hoppy? Send a link if there is.

[anoshmo]

Most ppl think that Wolf is a Fox clone, but if u look closely in one of the gameplay videos, his "A attacks" are way different than Fox's. His "B attacks" are similar to Fox's but have different effects. His final smash, though, I think is a clone.

[staindgrey]

Ylink: Ugh... I don't know all the slang on here, but I've played this game for years. I know what things are, just not how you guys word them yet. I simply mean that when you use Toon Link's down A smash, or Dair I think, you fall almost instantaneously; it's a LOT faster than it was in Melee or what Link's is currently. It's harder to dodge. And the video was already posted on here, it's the "Toon Link used a hookshot more than once!" or whatever the exact wording is, thread. He's facing R.O.B., and whoever this guy is, he loves using the Dair, and at one point in the video, yes, he hops for a combo.

[Red Impact]

Most ppl think that Wolf is a Fox clone, but if u look closely in one of the gameplay videos, his "A attacks" are way different than Fox's. His "B attacks" are similar to Fox's but have different effects. His final smash, though, I think is a clone.

The main issue with those individuals is that they're using the wrong word. Falco and Wolf are both derivatives of Fox's play style and general mechanics. The latter falls farther from the tree than the former, but that's what they are.

Toon Link is a clone, albeit with fewer differences between the original character than the examples above:

- Arrows arc upward
- Can pull out and toss bombs much faster than regular Link
- Much floatier
- Shorter sword range, faster attack speed
- Weaker

http://i31.tinypic.com/2cdevps.gif

http://i29.tinypic.com/2mw5b93.gif

With that said, he looks like a ton of fun to use, and his Classic Link color scheme is very welcome surprise.

[ylink_underestimted]

Ylink: Ugh... I don't know all the slang on here, but I've played this game for years. I know what things are, just not how you guys word them yet. I simply mean that when you use Toon Link's down A smash, or Dair I think, you fall almost instantaneously; it's a LOT faster than it was in Melee or what Link's is currently. It's harder to dodge. And the video was already posted on here, it's the "Toon Link used a hookshot more than once!" or whatever the exact wording is, thread. He's facing R.O.B., and whoever this guy is, he loves using the Dair, and at one point in the video, yes, he hops for a combo.

Look up Wak's AHTP vid. I learned all my tricks from there and gradually got better at combos.
That's what I meant by the Fast-Fall (that should be self explanatory): Toon Link is just falling faster that normal by a controlled technique used (when at the peak of the jump, hold down on the joystick).

I think I was the one who said that Toon Link can use the HookShot twice in the air, but I didn't catch the fact that he hopped while using the Dair...oh well I'll check it out later.

[RenegadeRaven]

Who's having a heart attack? All I said was that Toon Link could've been the character that had a unique Moveset (which is true)...if you were directing towards me that is...

@ staindgrey: Oh it sounded like you didn't want Toon Link to be hoppy...
Also, do you know what Fast-Falling is? To me it doesn't sound like you do for some reason :ohwell:
Was there a vid of TL being all hoppy? Send a link if there is.

I agree entirely that he could have had a new moveset, there are lots of choices, I just think having clones help give the game dept. And no I wasn't directing it towards you. Just a lot of people at school who keeps bashing clones is all. >_<

[Rhubarbo]

I agree entirely that he could have had a new moveset, there are lots of choices, I just think having clones help give the game dept. And no I wasn't directing it towards you. Just a lot of people at school who keeps bashing clones is all. >_<

Clones give the game depth? If so, they should have ADDED Toon Link and Y.Link.

[kamikaze falco]

I like the way he is now. I like almost everything about it from what I can see. I can't wait to play him :D

[R.Y.N.O]

I really doubt a good video can be found. There's nothing really good with Toon Link in it yet. I think I'll just take his word for it.

I AM VERY SORRY Parassita. That was his taunt. For some reason I thought it was a throw. Maybe because I was tired. This is a Vid of him. He uses it during the end: http://youtube.com/watch?v=FeeIYr5wW78

[ylink_underestimted]

Clones give the game depth? If so, they should have ADDED Toon Link and Y.Link.

What do you mean by "added"? Toon Link is already in...o_O

[Rhubarbo]

What do you mean by "added"? Toon Link is already in...o_O

What I meant was that Toon Link doesn't have any moves that define who he is that are exclusive from his games. This leads me back to my theory that Brawl was rushed. They wouldn't intentionally give Wolf another Landmaster. It's not like there were Final Smashes in Melee and Wolf Melee players (sarcasm) would have to adapt to a new Final Smash.