Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Yuna]

I am not a perfect person. I frequently make mistakes. When I play Brawl and look at the game, I feel that it's less balanced than Melee. The gaps between the tiers feels greater and the chasm between The God Ones and The Bad Ones is much bigger this time around.

Yet I see a lot of people walking around saying "Brawl is more balanced than Melee"... not a single one of them someone of note (high placings in tournaments or at least well-known). I've never seen some bigshot say this, but that's almost besides the point.

What's important is that I've frequently stated that Brawl is in fact less balanced. I've often challenged statements of Brawl being more balanced. Not a single time have my arguments for Brawl being less balanced been refuted... often they are even ignored for whatever reason.

So, for those who have actually played the game and quite extensively, is the game more balanced than Melee or not? I have yet to see a single credible person state this nor have I seen anyone reply to my challenges of "It's more balanced how?" (variations exist) with valid arguments (and by that I mean any arguments whatsoever besides "Because I think so").

Is this just another preconceived notion perpetuated by ignorance and based on a random rumor some guy made up once which is now spread by people who haven't even played the game or studied too many videos of it?

Because I personally don't see how it's more balanced than Melee. But I'd gladly be proven wrong.

[Eaode]

I really see your point. Brawl could be anything at this point, and I think people with a lack of experience are just assuming it looks more balanced because they don't take into accoun the fact that it just came out/hasn't come out yet and the metagame isn't very developed.

[IvanEva]

I'm in the "it's too early to tell" camp. However, you just stated that you feel that "it's less balanced than Melee". I'm curious to know what has led you to such a feeling. From the videos that I've seen thus far no one character has come out ahead of the others. I've yet to see any tournaments so I'm very much in the dark. So, again, what makes you think it's less balanced? What have you seen/experienced thus far?

[hippochinfat!!]

less balanced then Melee. Especially with Snake running around raping everyone.

Yeah, I edited this since I changed my mind.

[I_R_Hungry]

How are we supposed to know?

[Yuna]

I'm in the "it's too early to tell" camp. However, you just stated that you feel that "it's less balanced than Melee". I'm curious to know what has led you to such a feeling. From the videos that I've seen thus far no one character has come out ahead of the others. I've yet to see any tournaments so I'm very much in the dark. So, again, what makes you think it's less balanced? What have you seen/experienced thus far?
The gap between The Good Characters and the Bad Characters is much larger now. Certain characters can combo, rack up damage and KO. Certain others can't do either very well. Certain chars can do two out of three, others only one of them.

Few characters can approach safely. Marth can do all of these things.

Lower ceilings will make vertical KO's even more important, especially with the new floatiness to screw up edgeguarding. Only a select few can KO well vertically.

Among other things...

[Wiseguy]

It will take time before we can begin to know how balanced Brawl is. Any claim of balance or imbalance at this point is bound to be turned on its head after months and years of continuous play. I suggest not making any judgements this early.

[Fonz]

I am not a perfect person. I frequently make mistakes. When I play Brawl and look at the game, I feel that it's less balanced than Melee. The gaps between the tiers feels greater and the chasm between The God Ones and The Bad Ones is much bigger this time around.

I'm no big shot, but I don't think you could be any more wrong. Brawl certainly isn't perfect but balance is one thing that feels drastically improved. A MUCH larger percent of the cast feels tourney viable at this point. That maybe change, but as of right now there don't seem to be any bowser vs sheik match ups. I feel more much comfortable than I did in melee just selecting a random character and having a decent shot with everyone. Part of that is due to the fact that nobody knows exactly what they're doing right now, but I certainly didn't feel this way when I first picked up melee (and I had plenty of smash experience already from n64).

[ShortAssassin]

I think that the fact that there are more characters can create the illusion of balance. The fact that there are more characters with balanced match ups seems to say more balance in the game, even if, as Yuna states, the difference between tiers is the same if not greater than in melee.

[OrlanduEX]

YAY! Another Yuna thread! I love these. They always spark the most heated (ie. interesting) discussions around here.

[popo12]

I'm in the "it's too early to tell" camp. However, you just stated that you feel that "it's less balanced than Melee". I'm curious to know what has led you to such a feeling. From the videos that I've seen thus far no one character has come out ahead of the others. I've yet to see any tournaments so I'm very much in the dark. So, again, what makes you think it's less balanced? What have you seen/experienced thus far?
Those are my feelings exactly. I can see why people think that it's more balanced since there's no meta-game, but I haven't seen any one character just be obviously broken. I haven't played the game, so I know that there's things I just haven't seen, but I'd still like some examples.

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

The gap between The Good Characters and the Bad Characters is much larger now. Certain characters can combo, rack up damage and KO. Certain others can't do either very well. Certain chars can do two out of three, others only one of them.

Few characters can approach safely. Marth can do all of these things.

Lower ceilings will make vertical KO's even more important, especially with the new floatiness to screw up edgeguarding. Only a select few can KO well vertically.

Among other things...

Just because you think characters can combo, KO easily, rack up damage doesn't mean they're better, give it a few months, I'm sure certain characters will be reaveled to be good

[=ArtH=]

Brawl is unbalanced. Characters like Olimar and Falco get absolute control and just dominate everyone outside of Marth/Toon Link/few others. Falcos new lasers make it so you opponent stays on the ground, within grab range or far enough away so he cant get tippered/grabbed. His new shine helps with this too. You can chain grab with his down grab too.

Olimar is just ****ing nasty. He can camp like a ***** and spam Pikmin or just rape you with Fair to Dair combos. His grab range is also ridiculous. It's like Marth and Peach had a baby while doing drugs. HE'S JUST THAT CRAZY.

I'm not even going to talk about Marth because well all know how gay he is.

[IvanEva]

Yuna, without listing every character (unless you REALLY want to), how do you currently see the tier list and by how much? I'm guessing:

Marth
-
-
-
Toon Link
Pit?
-
Everybody else?

[Yuna]

I'm no big shot, but I don't think you could be any more wrong. Brawl certainly isn't perfect but balance is one thing that feels drastically improved. A MUCH larger percent of the cast feels tourney viable at this point. That maybe change, but as of right now there don't seem to be any bowser vs sheik match ups. I feel more much comfortable than I did in melee just selecting a random character and having a decent shot with everyone. Part of that is due to the fact that nobody knows exactly what they're doing right now, but I certainly didn't feel this way when I first picked up melee (and I had plenty of smash experience already from n64).
Hey, someone reliable.

Keep in mind that the cast is larger. Also, balance is not only important in how many characters can be picked up and have a decent chance in placing high at a tournament (a number higher than some people seem to think in Melee but then again, I play PAL) but also in how big the differences are between the Good Ones and the Bad Ones.

I mean, maybe 10 characters now have a chance of winning a tournament. Meanwhile, the 21 others pretty much don't stand a chance against said 10 characters unless they have a specific favourable matchup against one or two of them or the opponents screw up big-time. That's also a balance issue, for instance. A similar one is that there's a 5-man Top Tier and a 5-man High Tier. The gap between the Tops and the Highs is palpatable but can be overcome. The gaps between each subsequent tier is at least as palpatable or even moreso. In the end, the gap between Top and Bottom is huge. Huge as in "Not in a million years".

I mean, in Melee, there were tiers and really, really bad matchups. But even the Low Tiers could win against the Tops and Highs depending on the matchup. Most matchups were obviously an uphill battle but it's not like all Low Tier characters had Sheik vs. Bowser against the higher tiers (especially not in PAL).

And Marth just breaks all rules altogether.

[25%Cotton]

i'm under the opinion that it's more balanced. weak melee characters are a lot stronger now and a lot of strong melee characters have been weakened. but this could mean absolutely nothing in the months and years to come.

personally, i don't really mind too much, so long as my favorite characters remain somewhat potent.

[Ban Heim]

First of all, a person with extensive melee knowledge/skill is not more qualified to discuss balance in Brawl. Why is this? Well first of all, casuals and people who do use ATs but don't necessarily go to tournaments are not morons. Balance is easy to see, whether you're competitive or not. The only difference is that casuals will play a match and go, "hey, this feels more balanced" but the competitive players will be able to point out exactly what causes that balance. People need to get off their ego trips. Trust me, once Brawl comes out, people who may have dominated Melee may not even be high up in tournament rankings.

Skill in Melee means **** in Brawl. How do I know this? Well the fact that I was able to win at least half of the Brawl matches I played against Melee pros is a good indicator. I'm not a casual player. I use ATs in Melee and am very good with them. I've been to 3-4 tournaments but have never placed very high. If people who win Melee tournaments often cannot beat me more than half of the time in Brawl, it's only logical to assume that skill in Melee does not necessarily mean skill in Brawl.

Now that that rant is over, I'll get on topic. I've played Brawl. Although I haven't played it as extensively as some other members have, I have also spent a great deal of time watching people play Brawl at a smashfest. From what I have played and seen personally, there is no character that tends to come out on top most of the time. I don't know exactly what you're looking for when you say you want proof of balance. I guess you can watch Brawl videos and keep track of who beats who and how often. I'm not going to do your work for you.

However, this balance may only be temporary, caused mostly by our lack of experience in Brawl. Tiers may be defined more rigidly in the future, but as of now, every character seems to be able to beat any other. Once we learn how to play characters to their fullest potential, tiers may adjust and the game may prove to be less balanced than Melee and SSB64. However, for now, it feels balanced.

Also, you cannot ask people to prove you wrong when you haven't presented anything for them to argue against. You ask for proof of balance, but what proof do you offer for the contrary?

[OrlanduEX]

I'm no big shot, but I don't think you could be any more wrong. Brawl certainly isn't perfect but balance is one thing that feels drastically improved. A MUCH larger percent of the cast feels tourney viable at this point. That maybe change, but as of right now there don't seem to be any bowser vs sheik match ups. I feel more much comfortable than I did in melee just selecting a random character and having a decent shot with everyone. Part of that is due to the fact that nobody knows exactly what they're doing right now, but I certainly didn't feel this way when I first picked up melee (and I had plenty of smash experience already from n64).

It doesn't matter how many of the characters are tourney viable if some characters have more inherent ability than others. It didn't take long to see that Sheik and Fox were better than the majority of the cast in Melee, and I don't think it's hard to see that a few characters like Marth and Olimar have far more potential than other characters right now.

Like Yuna said, some characters can combo, but can't kill.
Example: Meta Knight. Sure he's fast and has combos, but his KO options are far more limited than those of say Marth.

Other characters are really strong, but lack the mobility and attack speed to combo/approach most other characters or even keep up with them.
Example: Ganondorf. Yea he's strong, but with no l-cancel, he is now slow as all hell. He simply has no way of keeping up with characters like Marth. His high start up lag means that people will attack him out of his moves before they even start and his ridiculous recovery time means he will be punished for everything.

Then you have characters like Marth who are good at everything. It is these few all around great characters that are likely to dominate the Brawl metagame.
It doesn't matter that Link and Fox are now more even if Marth owns both of them.

And no I'm not saying that MArth is the only good character in the game or that he is the best character. It's just an example.

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Brawl is unbalanced. Characters like Olimar and Falco get absolute control and just dominate everyone outside of Marth/Toon Link/few others. Falcos new lasers make it so you opponent stays on the ground, within grab range or far enough away so he cant get tippered/grabbed. His new shine helps with this too. You can chain grab with his down grab too.

Olimar is just ****ing nasty. He can camp like a ***** and spam Pikmin or just rape you with Fair to Dair combos. His grab range is also ridiculous. It's like Marth and Peach had a baby while doing drugs. HE'S JUST THAT CRAZY.

I'm not even going to talk about Marth because well all know how gay he is.

Snake and Olimar = Camping magic

anyway, i'm maining snake, i don't care if he's bottom tier, he's just, badarse

[SinisterLizard]

The differences in Melee were huge. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Eszett]

Both methodologies seem to be flawed right now. The casual players are expressing their hopes for a more balanced game as The Unconditional Truth without any evidence to back it, while it seems the competitive players have not delved deeply enough into the game for a distinguished "Brawl game theory" to arise.

In such cases, the only thing we can trust are hard, cold statistics.

Here is how I would design such an experiment:

1. Have the leading experts for each character battle each other in a large series of matches (say, 20-25). Every character matchup must be explored. Going by the figure of 37 characters, I generate a figure of 666 unique matchups*.

2. Compile the results: who won the match? and by how great of a margin?

3. Given the large sample size, a distinct map of how certain matchups fare will arise. The next thing to do is to create a grid and assign characters values for each matchups based on the intersections. This is just a very small excerpt of what would contain all the characters:

MarioLinkKirbyPikachu
Mario5630
Link4545
Kirby7659
Pikachu10515

(This data is completely made up, and I apologize for the messiness.)

All the green characters are the attacking characters and the orange characters are the defending ones. Each is assigned a value from 0 to 10 based on how well the attacking character counters the defending character. 10 is the best for the attacking character. The corresponding value using the characters the opposite way around is (10 - x). All characters are evenly matched against themselves.

After this, all the values for each attacking character (row-wise in my example) are totaled and averaged out. Rank the characters from highest to lowest and you have yourself a tier list.

Complaints? Suggestions?

* How I got this number: with 37 characters (ZSS and Shiek are separate characters for this), I assumed the 37*37 grid explained in section 3 and got 1369. I subtracted 37 for ditto matchups to get 1332. After this, I divided this number in half to eliminate swapped matchups (e.g. Wario vs. Pit and Pit vs. Wario) to arrive at 666 unique matchups.

[=ArtH=]

The differences in Melee were huge. I don't know what you're talking about.

Tell that to Bum and ChuDat.

[_NeXuS_]

I don't even think this is worth debating over. The game isn't even out in all regions yet. This is a conversation we should be having a year from now.

[ThaCarter]

As with the tier list..

Figuring this out will take some time..

[billywill]

what? you guys think Brawl was delayed for no apparent reason?

[25%Cotton]

the weird thing about balance in melee is that when an.... "incompetent" player is playing melee, the gap between characters is astronomical, but as this player gets better, the gaps disappear and characters begin to feel much closer to balanced. i have a lot of friends of varying ability... so this is increasingly obvious to me.

but in brawl, I haven't noticed early-on balancing issues. i've been watching videos since the day brawl was released... even noob videos... and brawl has had a very balanced breakfast, we could say.

this could all change, however... but i do not believe that brawl will have many balancing issues... and on the plus side, it seems that they are actually using the wiiconnect24 to patch balancing problems (read thread on differences between US/Japan releases).

[ThaCarter]

No one really specifically explained why Brawl was delayed..

Just because Brawl was delayed doesn't mean they were balancing the characters.

[OrlanduEX]

First of all, a person with extensive melee knowledge/skill is not more qualified to discuss balance in Brawl. Why is this? Well first of all, casuals and people who do use ATs but don't necessarily go to tournaments are not morons. Balance is easy to see, whether you're competitive or not. The only difference is that casuals will play a match and go, "hey, this feels more balanced" but the competitive players will be able to point out exactly what causes that balance. People need to get off their ego trips. Trust me, once Brawl comes out, people who may have dominated Melee may not even be high up in tournament rankings.

Skill in Melee means **** in Brawl. How do I know this? Well the fact that I was able to win at least half of the Brawl matches I played against Melee pros is a good indicator. I'm not a casual player. I use ATs in Melee and am very good with them. I've been to 3-4 tournaments but have never placed very high. If people who win Melee tournaments often cannot beat me more than half of the time in Brawl, it's only logical to assume that skill in Melee does not necessarily mean skill in Brawl.

Now that that rant is over, I'll get on topic. I've played Brawl. Although I haven't played it as extensively as some other members have, I have also spent a great deal of time watching people play Brawl at a smashfest. From what I have played and seen personally, there is no character that tends to come out on top most of the time. I don't know exactly what you're looking for when you say you want proof of balance. I guess you can watch Brawl videos and keep track of who beats who and how often. I'm not going to do your work for you.

However, this balance may only be temporary, caused mostly by our lack of experience in Brawl. Tiers may be defined more rigidly in the future, but as of now, every character seems to be able to beat any other. Once we learn how to play characters to their fullest potential, tiers may adjust and the game may prove to be less balanced than Melee and SSB64. However, for now, it feels balanced.

Also, you cannot ask people to prove you wrong when you haven't presented anything for them to argue against. You ask for proof of balance, but what proof do you offer for the contrary?

I think it is RIDICULOUS to make the claim that Melee experience is useless in Brawl. Guess what, Brawl isn't so different from Melee as you think. Everyone keeps saying "Brawl isn't Melee 2.0" but all the basic mechanics that were integral to Melee are pretty much the foundation that Brawl was built on. They didn't reinvent the wheel.
Do you really mean to suggest that those with extensive Melee experience like Gimpy and M2K are suddenly helpless now that they don't have their old advanced techs or whatever?

And you presented a logical fallacy in that second paragraph. You say that because you could play against some Melee Pros equally in Brawl that Melee experience must not mean anything but you totally ignored a s***load of factors. Have you played against ALL Melee pros? How does the sample of players who you contended against represent all experienced Melee players? Who did you play against? How much have they played Brawl? How much time did they have to adjust to the changes that have been implemented in Brawl and apply their past knowledge to it? Oh right. What they knew in Melee means nothing now.

And Yuna DID present arguments as to why some characters are far better than others and thus that the roster is unbalanced. You can't say he didn't.

[ThaCarter]

the weird thing about balance in melee is that when an.... "incompetent" player is playing melee, the gap between characters is astronomical, but as this player gets better, the gaps disappear and characters begin to feel much closer to balanced. i have a lot of friends of varying ability... so this is increasingly obvious to me.

but in brawl, I haven't noticed early-on balancing issues. i've been watching videos since the day brawl was released... even noob videos... and brawl has had a very balanced breakfast, we could say.

this could all change, however... but i do not believe that brawl will have many balancing issues... and on the plus side, it seems that they are actually using the wiiconnect24 to patch balancing problems (read thread on differences between US/Japan releases).
There using wiiconnect to patch?

Thats good i hope they do...

However I thought I read somewhere that they weren't going to be releasing patches...Oh well

[25%Cotton]

There using wiiconnect to patch?

Thats good i hope they do...

However I thought I read somewhere that they weren't going to be releasing patches...Oh well

they SAID they weren't going to this sort of thing... but it seems that they will with the release of every new version of brawl.

[VersatileBJN]

Marth and Toon Link being better than everyone else(perhaps) has absolutely NOTHING to do with Brawl being more balanced.



Pretty much EVERY FIGHTING GAME IN EXISTENCE hass 2 or 3 characters that are significantly better than the rest. Does this mean the game is not balanced? No, it doesn't.

Ken, Chun Li and Yun own Street Fighter 3: third Strike, and yet you see all sorts of players placing high(or winning tournaments) not using any of them. This was not the case in Melee, where a huge chunk of characters simply couldn't place in tournaments.

It is looking like Brawl will go down a similar route as 3Sr, but we won't know for sure until everyone has the game and is competiting at a decent level and attending tournaments.

So far Marth, Toon Link, Olimar, Luigi, Lucas, Mario, Ike, Snake, Pikachu, Kirby, Pit, Meta Knight, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Falco, Fox, Wolf and Wario all look very solid.

I would argue that at this stage even in Melee not that many characters looked good.

[ThaCarter]

Good I was hoping they'd take the time to make patches...I mean considering that this may be the last smash game,it only makes since to keep it patched..

Especially seeing as we will probably find many glitches,bugs,and balance problems later.

[billywill]

No one really specifically explained why Brawl was delayed..

Just because Brawl was delayed doesn't mean they were balancing the characters.

yeah I know but that could have been one of the reasons

[Feryx]

Can we get some examples of really terrible match-ups in Brawl? I've watched a whole bunch of competitive vids, and I haven't seen anything nearly as bad as, say Marth v Kirby in Melee





yet

[OrlanduEX]

I heard that in an interview, Sakurai said that Brawl was delayed (the first time) to include Sonic. From what I understand, he said that the roster was decided in like 2006. The decision to add Sonic came long after development was underway apparently.

I'd love it if someone could corroborate this gossip with some actual facts.

[Yuna]

i'm under the opinion that it's more balanced. weak melee characters are a lot stronger now and a lot of strong melee characters have been weakened. but this could mean absolutely nothing in the months and years to come.
How does this make the game more balanced? It's all in how balanced they are now in comparison to each other, not how nerfed/buffed returning characters are.

First of all, a person with extensive melee knowledge/skill is not more qualified to discuss balance in Brawl. Why is this? Well first of all, casuals and people who do use ATs but don't necessarily go to tournaments are not morons. Balance is easy to see, whether you're competitive or not. The only difference is that casuals will play a match and go, "hey, this feels more balanced" but the competitive players will be able to point out exactly what causes that balance. People need to get off their ego trips. Trust me, once Brawl comes out, people who may have dominated Melee may not even be high up in tournament rankings.
Competitive Smashers usually have a deeper understanding of balance and Smash in general. Pick a random Casual Smasher and a random Competitive one. According to the odds, who will have the better chance of knowing Smash balance?

Casual smashing gave us gems such as "Peach sucks! How can you play her?", "Roy is better than Marth!" and "Falco sucks!".

Skill in Melee means **** in Brawl. How do I know this? Well the fact that I was able to win at least half of the Brawl matches I played against Melee pros is a good indicator. I'm not a casual player. I use ATs in Melee and am very good with them. I've been to 3-4 tournaments but have never placed very high. If people who win Melee tournaments often cannot beat me more than half of the time in Brawl, it's only logical to assume that skill in Melee does not necessarily mean skill in Brawl.
Who are these "Pros"? And Brawl is new. Everyone's new at the game. It doesn't mean that everyone's new to Competitive Fighting and especially not Smash. We who knew what made a competitive fighting game will still know it.

While being good at the game does not mean you know more about it than someone who isn't, the odds are in favour of that.

Now that that rant is over, I'll get on topic. I've played Brawl. Although I haven't played it as extensively as some other members have, I have also spent a great deal of time watching people play Brawl at a smashfest. From what I have played and seen personally, there is no character that tends to come out on top most of the time. I don't know exactly what you're looking for when you say you want proof of balance. I guess you can watch Brawl videos and keep track of who beats who and how often. I'm not going to do your work for you.
Random Player #21 vs. Random Player #34 is not proof of how good X characters are if they aren't even doing what's currently known to be the best strategies with said characters.

However, this balance may only be temporary, caused mostly by our lack of experience in Brawl. Tiers may be defined more rigidly in the future, but as of now, every character seems to be able to beat any other. Once we learn how to play characters to their fullest potential, tiers may adjust and the game may prove to be less balanced than Melee and SSB64. However, for now, it feels balanced.
Peach vs. Marth

Marth had the advantage in Melee. Now he just destroys her (if they both know what they're doing). Yoshi vs. Anyone.

Also, you cannot ask people to prove you wrong when you haven't presented anything for them to argue against. You ask for proof of balance, but what proof do you offer for the contrary?
If more people ask for it, I'll provide a long post about it later today.

[aho43]

Please stop making horrible threads. If you've played the game extensively at all its obvious that the game is more balanced than melee in terms of top and bottom. I'm not going to elaborate because its that freaking obvious.

[S623]

I'm gonna' say that it depends on the skill of the player. I mean, just because you're playing as Sheik doesn't mean **** once you're fighting a skilled Bowser (ie. Gimpy).

Even so, it's still too early to tell.

[ThaCarter]

yeah I know but that could have been one of the reasons

It would take alot longer than it did to balance each character.

[VersatileBJN]

Bringing up characters like Yoshi and Peach don't mean much. The game being pretty balanced does not mean that there won't be garbage characters. The roster is 37. If you can give me a fighting game with a roster 37+ where every character can compete at a high level then bringing those two up is justifiable.