Edge Play

[UnderWing]

Hey all, relative n00b here... I've been playing TL since launch, and I played YL in Melee (I wasn't competitive, but I was highly ranked within my group of friends). A habit that I brought over from the way I played YL was my edge play -- I have the tendency to, when recovering from being knocked way out, stick to the edge if there's someone pressing me. I'll drop from the edge and grab bombs/second jump and attack/anything that will help against whatever my opponent is trying to edgegaurd me with. I recognize this is a risky strategy, so I try to avoid it, but I can get some little annoyance damage and sometime force the opponent to back off if they aren't being aggressive enough to take me down.

This obviously works better against some characters than others, but one thing I've been doing of late is using similar actions to nerf other recoveries. I've found a fair amount of success with hugging the ledge when the enemy's way out and going for a recovery, then either dropping or wall-jumping from there to go for an attack. I esp. love getting quick drop-off hits against certain chars by simply letting go by pressing back, and bairing them instantly -- usually works maybe once or twice in a match, but when it does I can usually combo them out of it, or it's enough to kill (again, very character dependent). It's also fun (on FD) to drop/second jump under the stage/jump off the little wall that's directly under the platform by the ledge/bairing fairing, depending on where the enemy is -- I've used this to take down people who tried to use a similar ledge-play strategy against me.

And of course, nothing feels better than nerfing someone's recovery with a toadstool hop after dropping of the ledge.

I recognize the dangers with all of this type of play, but it generally works (and I can usually prevent any "punishment" by timing my invincibility frames well). What do you guys think about it -- do you think it's a good idea against people recovering (where I can work it in with edgehogging, etc)? How about people who are still on the stage (not so much a delay tactic as something to pressure an action that puts them at a disadvantage)? Think it's stupid? Think I'm over-thinking it? Any and all input is appreciated.

--UnderWing

[Umby]

People drop from the ledge and do crazy things to edgeguard/gimp recoveries all the time. Toon Link is no exception.

[UnderWing]

Heh, good to hear I'm not alone -- I've just gotten into tournament play with Brawl, and I had seen a little bit of ledge play where I've gone, but it's good to hear it's not something that'll get me killed at higher levels of play. I guess it's just use in moderation. I am afraid of getting into bad habits, so thus my post.

What I haven't seen too much of is repetitive use of the ledge as a "platform" from which to launch attacks from relative safety on people who are actually *on* the level. I've developed a few minor mindgames (they seemed to do fairly well for me in the UCSD tournament here in SoCal that I attended yesterday) involving baiting with projectiles and then delaying attacks/dodging attacks using wall-jumps on the sides of the levels, which can help me punish when they try to hit me off the ledge. What ends up happening, generally, is that they either take the bait (and come to the ledge/jump off and try to aerial me) or they just stay back. I've tried to avoid delaying the game unreasonably, but I could re-grab the ledge six or seven times in a row if they're trying to closely guard me and I can't get a hit in. I even will seek ledges on certain stages (Norfair, for instance, which was counter-picked against me at the first UCSD tourney three weeks ago), and drop/hop from ledge to ledge to get a better angle of attack/avoid punishment. Delfine Plaza, for instance, I can launch an attack through the bottom of the platform from relative safety, and maybe even grab the other side never really putting myself in danger. I try to avoid being overly campy with it, but sometimes I think it does come across as being a little bit... annoying. I try to stop before that point.

So I guess that's the real question -- what do you guys think about using the ledge invincibility frames and relative safety as a platform from which to launch an offensive/provoke one?

[Generic]

Sure it could help to mix it a bit into you're game when trying to recover. I think that a good player would be able to read this pretty quickly and figure out a way to punish you though.

[Umby]

You can play on the ledge a little if you like, but people can catch on and screw you over. It's not like Pit's arrows where you can sit there doing it all day and effectively rack up damage.

[UnderWing]

You can play on the ledge a little if you like, but people can catch on and screw you over. It's not like Pit's arrows where you can sit there doing it all day and effectively rack up damage.
Funny you should mention Pit -- I actually play primarily against a Pit main (good friend of mine, slightly better than I am) who is an absolute beast with the arrows. Some of the applications of this "ledge play" strategy came from me trying to figure out how to counter his arrows. He would start "spamming" them, trying to force me to attack, and instead I'd just block one or two as I attempted to back off an edge or get over him. My spacing still needs work, so a direct assault generally doesn't work, but his arrows are enough to pressure me. I still sometimes use the ledge to figure out strategy/try to get him to make an approach. I think one of the major problems these days is that most of our practice has been against each other -- I have very little experience against any other characters (though he plays an occasional ROB or Lucario, that's maybe once for every 10 Pit rounds), and we've just completely gotten into each other's heads.

But I digress. Basically, I find that playing on the ledge is a decent counter to the arrow play at least, and it'll force him to make a slight approach (even when he tilts his arrows down to hit me, it's a simple matter of dropping and sweetspotting) at the very least -- generally in range for something like a bombing run or a couple quick arrows. I recognize the danger this puts me in if they get close enough to do damage, but with the sweetspot mechanic, most characters will need to jump out in order to get at me -- dropping and up-b's or second jumps onto the ledge gives me enough invuln to work with against other types of attacks, if I'm careful. And once they're in the air, TL's air comes more into play (obviously), which can be a very good thing.

I'm not sure if I'm being incredibly clear (I'm probably twice or four times as wordy as I need to be), so if something I say doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification.

[Cooper736]

Playing off the edge will never work well against someone with good spacing. Your friend who plays Pit can easily screw you over if he guides his arrows properly, as he will be out of range and can hit you when you come up for a Bair, Fair, or bomb throw. If someone is close and has a brain, they may get hit once or twice, but eventually start shield-grabbing you. That said, if someone is edgeguarding you at the ledge and has a shield up, there's not too much that you can do.

What I like to do is jump back and throw a 'rang. When people see me jump back they let their shield down, which lets me hit them. Or jumping up with the basic jump command works well sometimes for a surprise Bair or Dair, depending on the character. It's all about the playstyle of your opponent, and your reaction. But essentially yes, if your opponent is charging an Fsmash waiting for you to come up, hitting off the edge can work. Though I generally prefer my ledge attack (press A while hanging). You get nice invincibility frames as well as a solid hit.

[UnderWing]

Yeah, the boomer from farther out is what I end up using sometimes... also works if you have a bomb prep'd, I find. My friend does often punish me, but generally I'm below level when I do most of this stuff. I change things up and stuff, and he's fairly good with the arrows, but even jumping usually they don't go straight down... When he does predict my movements to being a double jump, I find that's when a quick wall jump to bair can be quite effective -- if his shields are down to get ready to grab me, I can space outside of the grab range but still hit with a bair. This works on some levels, doesn't on others. I know for a fact that my general spacing needs a lot of work, and the same is true to a degree for him, but generally it's a bit of a stalemate.

Also, I don't not use attack recoveries or jump recoveries (a or x from ledge) -- they get thrown in the mix. I like the variety of attacks that work from the ledge a lot, so I try to keep my opponent guessing.

--UnderWing

[Cooper736]

The problem is there aren't a whole lot of things TL can do from the ledge. You've got attack/jump recoveries, a 'rang, a bomb if you happen to have one pulled already, or a Bair/Fair (I use Fairs, because I never got the hang of wall jumping, though sometimes i manage to turn my jump around). It's all about how well you've got control of your range. If you suck at it like me, you end up getting shield grabbed. If you don't, like you said, you stay out of range. I guess a good tactic might be to air dodge coming back up, then tether cancel and hit with an Ftilt/Utilt/Fsmash.

How do you practice, by the way? I've been going against Lv. 3 CPUs to work on my spacing and avoiding obvious attacks, but I'm not having much luck getting a grasp on how to launch aerials and hit with the tip, as opposed to the middle, which leaves me exposed. Do you have any advice on that, because it seems like you've got a handle on it.

[UnderWing]

Most of my practice is with live humans -- RBNuke and ICYDP here are both friends of mine, and we get together to play a fair amount. Unfortunately, especially with Nuke, I've gotten to the point where both of us know each other's strategies for the most part, so his slightly higher skill means that I lose the same match over and over again, with little skill progression. I've started, when they're not around, going against level 7's -- I find that that's kinda the sweet-spot in the AI where they block, shield, and grab almost as often as a human without having completely ridiculous timing. Spacing practice on them is nice, as I can practice without feeling like I have to go all out with all of my projectile game -- I'm fairly decent with those, but because I rely heavily on them I have a very weak close-quarters game.

I'm definitely not great at spacing yet, but the 7's seem to be the best practice I can get alone.

--UnderWing

[Cooper736]

I agree that playing with real people is the best form of practice, but it's difficult over Wi-Fi with the slight lag that occurs no matter how good your connection is. It doesn't affect my play that much, but air-dodging and shielding becomes much more difficult. The only time I play with people next to me is on Fridays. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and play with a handicap then.

[UnderWing]

Yeah, the online lag sucks... I've heard some people have had luck getting the USB ethernet adapters, supposedly they can decrease the latency slightly. As for me, I've avoided online for the most part, as I've been fortunate enough to have players next to me often enough.