Spam or approach?

[KratosAurion192]

This is something that I'm seriously debating with myself. I know TL can get in the fray unlike TP Link, but is it the best idea to? I have a random list of questions that I've established over the course of about a week.


1. All I ever play against is Olimar, Snake, Link and another TL, so the rest of the roster is a bit of a blur to me. Who should be spamed to death and who is safe to aproach?

2. I'm having trouble with the double arrows. Can someone explain it or link me to a reference?

3. I find myself not landing enough bairs, any way to try and help?

4. What throws are actually useful? When I do grab I never seem to do anything productive afterwards.

I'm not too active in the metagame, so my knowledge is limited, any help will be appreciated...

[Umby]

This is something that I'm seriously debating with myself. I know TL can get in the fray unlike TP Link, but is it the best idea to? I have a random list of questions that I've established over the course of about a week.


1. All I ever play against is Olimar, Snake, Link and another TL, so the rest of the roster is a bit of a blur to me. Who should be spamed to death and who is safe to aproach?

2. I'm having trouble with the double arrows. Can someone explain it or link me to a reference?

3. I find myself not landing enough bairs, any way to try and help?

4. What throws are actually useful? When I do grab I never seem to do anything productive afterwards.

I'm not too active in the metagame, so my knowledge is limited, any help will be appreciated...

1) Spam vs spam usually ends up null or at a loss most times for TL, so against the 4 characters you mentioned, you're almost forced to approach, especially vs Link and Olimar.

2) Double Arrows is SH Arrow to Bow Cancel. So SH, and Arrow immediately, then Arrow right before you hit the ground. I use a slide transition from Y to B for the first arrow. For a reference, Youtube Quickdraw/Bow Cancel.

3) You might need to sepukku if you aren't landing enough bairs. ._.
No, seriously, you can use them out of your shield if they're behind you, or RAR them.

4) Fthrow/bthrow are only really good for getting opponents off stage, though bthrow seems to give you more follow up options. Even then, they both pale in comparison to dthrow, which can set up for SH Bair or a utilt, which can set up for SH Bair.


Personally, I prefer to approach, using projectiles to mask my approach, though if I can't match their offense up close, I'll spam a little more. It depends on the type of player you are.

[WuTangDude]

I usually aproach, but that's cause I hate camping.

[JesiahTEG]

1) Spam vs spam usually ends up null or at a loss most times for TL, so against the 4 characters you mentioned, you're almost forced to approach, especially vs Link and Olimar.

What? Spam vs Spam almost always ends up in a win for Toon Link. He's pretty much the 2nd best camper in the game. He outcamps Link, Olimar, and Snake easily. He definitely is almost never forced to approach, that's the beauty of his amazing projectiles. He forces almost everybody to approach.

If someone are in a projectile war with somebody and his name isn't Falco, you should always win it.

[Umby]

Definitely doesn't outcamp Olimar. Link's projectiles are faster, which is what I'm basing my observation on. It seems you're a Snake main, so I'll take your word on TL vs Snake, considering I end up meleeing him anyway.

[JesiahTEG]

Toon Link outcamps Olimar. Toon Link outcamps Snake. Toon link outcamps Link.

To begin with, Olimar's projectiles have no range compared to Toon Link's arrows. You can stand far away and just spam Arrows, and unless Olimar gets close there is nothing he can do. If he does get close, his projectiles only travel in a straight line, so all Toon Link needs to to is jump and throw a Boomerang downwards and diagonally. You can even jump and throw bombs. Once Olimar shields, you can land, shoot an arrow or two, and repeat. In addition, if Olimar does get his Pikmin off, he's completely defenseless, so it's a lose lose situation for him anyways. Regardless, Toon Link easily outcamps him.

Toon Link outcamps Snake very easily. Between arrow spamming, Snake might have time to pull out a grenade. However, if you keep up the arrows, he'll have to shield them or spotdodge, which will force him to throw the Grenade, due to fear of them exploding on him. When he throws, he should get hit with an arrow or two. Basically, between shielding, he'll have to let go at some point, and that's when he'll take an arrow. He definitely outcamps Snake.

Links projectiles are in no way, shape, or form faster than Toon Link's projectiles. His arrows come out faster, and in addition they travel farther. Not only that, but Link can't even SHDA, effectively limiting his ability to control the playfield like Toon Link can.

Toon Link can outcamp all of those characters.

[QUIVO]

This is something that I'm seriously debating with myself. I know TL can get in the fray unlike TP Link, but is it the best idea to? I have a random list of questions that I've established over the course of about a week.


1. All I ever play against is Olimar, Snake, Link and another TL, so the rest of the roster is a bit of a blur to me. Who should be spamed to death and who is safe to aproach?

2. I'm having trouble with the double arrows. Can someone explain it or link me to a reference?

3. I find myself not landing enough bairs, any way to try and help?

4. What throws are actually useful? When I do grab I never seem to do anything productive afterwards.

I'm not too active in the metagame, so my knowledge is limited, any help will be appreciated...

I approach with projectiles, so i mix the two strategies together kind of. Usually it's pressuring with projectiles, forcing mistakes or looking for any opening for a nair. (Projectile combos if you want to call it that)

1. All of the characters you mention- I find you can approach safely with clever projectile use and once you get in their just keep swinging your sword. Of course you'd have to be intelligent about it, especially with Snake and Olimar. Also, spam vs spam is boring.

2. Just get the timing and listen for when you can shoot again

3. Many options:
Out of shield
Run past them and then start rar'ing from behind.
Stages like battlefield you can wall jump from the ledge and start bair'ing
Jump over them and try to get them from behind.
Short hop nair at a shield while you use air control to get to the other side of it and bair.
Etc.

4. As said, fthrow and bthrow for edgeguards. Sometimes you can expect them to jump immediately which can set up a bair or uair. Dthrow is good to set up utilts and bairs. Occasionally I'll throw in a uthrow and try to catch them off guard so i can uair, or except them to airdodge and follow up.

[KratosAurion192]

1) Spam vs spam usually ends up null or at a loss most times for TL, so against the 4 characters you mentioned, you're almost forced to approach, especially vs Link and Olimar.

2) Double Arrows is SH Arrow to Bow Cancel. So SH, and Arrow immediately, then Arrow right before you hit the ground. I use a slide transition from Y to B for the first arrow. For a reference, Youtube Quickdraw/Bow Cancel.

3) You might need to sepukku if you aren't landing enough bairs. ._.
No, seriously, you can use them out of your shield if they're behind you, or RAR them.

4) Fthrow/bthrow are only really good for getting opponents off stage, though bthrow seems to give you more follow up options. Even then, they both pale in comparison to dthrow, which can set up for SH Bair or a utilt, which can set up for SH Bair.


Personally, I prefer to approach, using projectiles to mask my approach, though if I can't match their offense up close, I'll spam a little more. It depends on the type of player you are.

I approach with projectiles, so i mix the two strategies together kind of. Usually it's pressuring with projectiles, forcing mistakes or looking for any opening for a nair. (Projectile combos if you want to call it that)

1. All of the characters you mention- I find you can approach safely with clever projectile use and once you get in their just keep swinging your sword. Of course you'd have to be intelligent about it, especially with Snake and Olimar. Also, spam vs spam is boring.

2. Just get the timing and listen for when you can shoot again

3. Many options:
Out of shield
Run past them and then start rar'ing from behind.
Stages like battlefield you can wall jump from the ledge and start bair'ing
Jump over them and try to get them from behind.
Short hop nair at a shield while you use air control to get to the other side of it and bair.
Etc.

4. As said, fthrow and bthrow for edgeguards. Sometimes you can expect them to jump immediately which can set up a bair or uair. Dthrow is good to set up utilts and bairs. Occasionally I'll throw in a uthrow and try to catch them off guard so i can uair, or except them to airdodge and follow up.

I don't have any trouble spaming the crap out of the people I play. Even with lacking the SHDA.

I need to practice and get a video out. Thanks for the help you guys... if I have anything else I'll come back...

[NoWai]

Toon Link outcamps Olimar.


Wtf... you don't even mention Olimar's overB? he throws 3 pikmin/second & block anything link throws and they still get on you because his pikmin throw outdoes SHDA.

[Umby]

Link's Gale Boomerang is definitely faster. Even if Link's Arrows don't come out faster, they travel and charge faster, which the speed of TL's projectiles allow enough time to get a decent range on. Link's version of Bow Canceling and increase in bomb throwing range can also be variable.

Adding on to NoWai's statement about Olimar, your bombs are almost out of the question for spam, since you're likely to have Pikmin latch onto you, throwing a bomb in such a condition is only grounds for the omb blowing up in your face. Olimar can even just smash the c-stick forward all day and block most anything you throw at him. Recovering Pikmin then shielding is not a difficult task either.

Furthermore, there's the trajectory at which Olimar can use Pikmin throw. He can weave in and out of the air, avoiding arrows (and narrowly avoiding the Boomerang) and launch Pikmin at you from a good distance. Out of the 3 Pikmin he'll probably get off on you, you'll have shot one arrow to hit one of the three Pikmin.

[CJ Love]

What? Spam vs Spam almost always ends up in a win for Toon Link. He's pretty much the 2nd best camper in the game. He outcamps Link, Olimar, and Snake easily. He definitely is almost never forced to approach, that's the beauty of his amazing projectiles. He forces almost everybody to approach.

If someone are in a projectile war with somebody and his name isn't Falco, you should always win it.


Wrong. Pit.

[JesiahTEG]

Wtf... you don't even mention Olimar's overB? he throws 3 pikmin/second & block anything link throws and they still get on you because his pikmin throw outdoes SHDA.

Huh? It's called smart play. You have the range advantage on Olimar, and that's all you need. Do not let him get close. If you are far away, there is literally nothing he can do, besides approach you. Even then, I mentioned in my previous post, Olimar's pikmin travel in a straight line, rendering them useless if you jump. All you need to do is stay on a platform, or jump and throw your boomerang diagonally. The Olimar is likely try and jump and throw his Pikmin at you, but after all, that's what this game is about: Smart play. Be smart, use your range, find your distance, and the battle is yours. No Toon Link is going to wait mid range to try and out projectile an Olimar. You have to play to your advantages. In this case, Toon Link has the advantage when he is far enough away where you can hit Olimar with your boomerang/arrows and his Pikmin can't reach you. That's what you need to do.



Link's Gale Boomerang is definitely faster. Even if Link's Arrows don't come out faster, they travel and charge faster, which the speed of TL's projectiles allow enough time to get a decent range on. Link's version of Bow Canceling and increase in bomb throwing range can also be variable.

Adding on to NoWai's statement about Olimar, your bombs are almost out of the question for spam, since you're likely to have Pikmin latch onto you, throwing a bomb in such a condition is only grounds for the omb blowing up in your face. Olimar can even just smash the c-stick forward all day and block most anything you throw at him. Recovering Pikmin then shielding is not a difficult task either.

Furthermore, there's the trajectory at which Olimar can use Pikmin throw. He can weave in and out of the air, avoiding arrows (and narrowly avoiding the Boomerang) and launch Pikmin at you from a good distance. Out of the 3 Pikmin he'll probably get off on you, you'll have shot one arrow to hit one of the three Pikmin.

Link's arrows do not travel faster dude, I'm testing it right now. Charge faster? Sure, barely, but even then, you can just jump and spam arrows/boomerangs from above. Remember that, in a projectile war, you're not just going to be standing there charging arrows and shooting, you need to be thinking. Here is how to outcamp Link.

Start off by shooting stationary arrows. There is a distance where, since your arrows hit travel farther than Link's, you can hit him with your uncharged arrows and he will not be able to hit you with his arrows, due to range. It is this distance that you want to be. You can just tap B, and your arrows will shoot too fast for Link to charge his arrows, making it so that he cannot hit you with arrows. If he does get far enough away where he can charge his arrows and you have to charge your arrows to hit him, then his will charge faster. To combat this, you're going to want to get a little bit close, and throw boomerangs/arrows, or even bombs from above. You should jump and shoot 2 arrows, and when you land, your distance should be the distance where you can hit him with arrows and he cannot hit you with arrows. Aim for this distance. Regarding Link's Boomerang, it's a bit faster and has the same range as Toon Link's boomerang. Do not fear though, Link's Boomerang is a joke. Simply stand outside of it's range where it doesn't actually do damage to you, and it only pushes you back. Charge your arrow when it's coming and release it when the Boomerang is halfway back to Link. This will make it so that your arrow hits link when he is catching the boomerang. Of course, you can always jump over the boomerang and shoot arrows/boomerangs, but this way works as well.

The thing to keep in mind throughout this entire projectile war, is that Toon Link has that distance where he can hit Link and Link will not be able to hit him. This is Toon Link's optimal position.


About the Olimar projectile war...You have the range. Stay far away, as I mention above. There is simply nothing he can do if you stay far away. If he gets close, it can be a little more difficult, but you can still beat him mid range by using smart projectile play and abusing aerial DI.

And yes, Shiro. Pit does outcamp Toon Link. :( Unfortunately for us haha.

[QUIVO]

Toon Link can rape olimar up close... You just have to watch out for shield grabs and dsmash.

The only serious/good Link I've played against was Azen, so I can't say much on that. Spam, or up close.. it's a tough battle.

[Ørion]

About the double arrow, go to training, set it to 1/4 speed, and try. You might be doing the move and not realizing it, its subtle and can be sort of hard to see in regular speed, but its a large enough difference to matter.

[KratosAurion192]

The SHDA needs to be started before you reach the peak of the SH for it to work. I didn't realize that XD

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah, SHDA is really good. Basically, you know you're doing it right if you shoot one arrow near the peak of your jump, and the next one comes out right before you hit the ground. The second one is sort of...Quirky looking, heh. It doesn't look smooth, at least in my opinion haha.