Toon Link Q&A

[JesiahTEG]

I'm posting this thread in order to keep these boards more organized, and keep discussion to a maximum without posting craploads of new threads. Questions like "Are projectiles better than melee attacking?" or "How good is Boomerang to Bomb?" or "Is Toon Link the same as Link?"

Simple questions like these can go in this thread, or more complicated ones in order to promote discussion. I realize this is not a 100% solution to the amount of junk that's bound to pop up, but it's a start.

Also, we're not as bad as some of the other boards, so I guess we should be proud of that. :)

I'll get the discussion rolling, by asking this...

Do you guys think RAR is really that good? Honestly, I find it very, very situational, and I almost never use it with Toon Link. I find it very overrated. He's based on forcing characters to approach with projectiles, and when he doesn't do that, most of the time he's better off mid range alternating between projectiles and his sword, so it makes approaching with him very rare.

[Smashless]

a true RAR approach is weird for toon link, because it's a good approach, but it's so rare that it's the best option (ie approaching at all). Like you said, it's situational.

On a case by case basis, who is it really good against? It has to be a character that forces TL to approach that he CAN approach and not be outranged or stopped by. Characters who force him to approach are rare, they'd have to outcamp him. So Falco? Even at that, one good laser stops you cold if you give him enough room. You have to space it perfectly.

Catching the opponent at close range with a few bairs is one thing, but deliberately setting up an RAR seems like a skill without a home.

[JesiahTEG]

Right right, I agree with most of what you said. Personally, I approach with Nair more. Seems to connect easier, and I can retreat quicker with it.

[QUIVO]

RAR is definitely overrated, nair seems to be a better approach.

Projectiles + Nairs are very good to set things up with.

[samizdat]

Agree here. Part of TL's spacing ability is based on the opponent's hesitancy to approach, with the threat of the projectile always looming. RARing really gives your strategy away, and if you try and projectile while RARing you end up just wasting time turning around a lot, allowing them easier approach. Of course RARing is really very awesome for some situations, like ledge guarding/fall guarding. I find it successful to projectile/nair/DI back to quick draw, then every now and then nairing to land at the back of my opponent. This is usually what sets up a more unexpected flurry of bairs (really, this is the only way I can get a 4+ bair combo against a halfway-intelligent player).

[Rawrness]

And Nair trips :D

[JesiahTEG]

Well, edgeguarding with Bair seems pointless, as the Bair hits them upwards...I'd probably just use any other one of his aerials.

[samizdat]

Eh, it's still useful. Like dropping down from and edge-hog to bair or jumping past someone's recovery in order to spike them against the stage (bair owns for this).

[Cerrus]

Nair-ing I've found is easily the best approach because you can shoot an arrow as you land. Either hit them with nair, and pressure with arrows. It seems to work lol

[Megamioflust]

I was going to make an own thread for my question, but I guess i'll post it here. One move I never use is the F-air. I know it has some knockback but it's kinda easy to evade. Can F-air be any useful?

[QUIVO]

Fair is good for edgeguarding.
A good way to set it up is hit them with a bomb at higher percent. Just predict where they'll go after the bomb hits.

[LegendofLink]

I was wondering how useful this really is: whenever I'm retreating I will sometimes randomly throw bombs up into the air. I find that the bombs either hit my opponents, make them hesitate to follow me back, or leave them vulnerable when they dodge/shield it. Is this a good idea, or would it be better if I used SHDA or something else to cover my retreat?

[Smashless]

bombs make good red herrings, focusing attention away from you so you can do sneaky things. Tossing a bomb up at a falling opponent, and timing your upair for when they airdodge the bomb is hilarious. As for retreating bombs, i'd rather throw it directly in my opponents face, since they'll probably shield, giving you more time to run away and set up a camp with arrows and such. tossing it in the air is too chancey

[wasabicheese]

i agree smashless, bomb up -> Uair=rape

[JesiahTEG]

I was going to make an own thread for my question, but I guess i'll post it here. One move I never use is the F-air. I know it has some knockback but it's kinda easy to evade. Can F-air be any useful?

Thanks for posting it here. Like Quivo said, you can edgeguard well with it. I use it if my opponent is on a platform sometimes also, to knock them off.

[Smashless]

this is a subject that doesn't get enough discussion, i think, because defensive options are not the focus of toon link's game. What do you do when the opponent manages to approach and get close? Obviously, we can projectile them, forcing them to approach, and then punish said approach. But a good player (and certain characters) will manage to get inside. What then?

Personally, depending on the stage, I like to attempt a grab and toss them behind me, and use toon link's quick running speed to put more distance between me and my opponent for another camping setup. But often, I'll meet their approach with an aerial, or a jab combo out of a shield. On really small stages, like smashville or battlefield, it can be difficult for toon link to properly respace himself until a good nair or something knocks them far enough away to start arrowing or boomeranging. At that point, it's a game of closer brawl instead of the oft-repeated sentiment of "just projectile them lawl"

What do you do?

[JesiahTEG]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rnmxzQE_x-I

Watch the first 25 seconds of this match. If somebody finally gets close, you have a few options. Your main option is to swat them away using well spaced aerials, or using your ground attacks as pokes. You can also grab like you said, which works well since a lot of opponents like to run and shield if you are projectile spamming them. Sometimes what I like to do, as seen in the first few seconds of that video, is spam them so they come close, and then quickly approach them with an aerial, instead of completely waiting for them to come to you. But yeah, that video should help.

[QUIVO]

It depends on positioning for me. Honestly, I like being up close so I throw my sword non stop when they come.

Nair
Nair out of shield
Bairs
Shield Grab
Dsmash
Retreating projectiles
Jump over them to space again

[Mr. Rogu]

no offense but thats kind of spamming that air A attack.

[Rawrness]

I heard you can hold a bomb while smashing...how is this performed?

[JesiahTEG]

To hold a bomb while Smashing, you have to hold A as you pull out the bomb...Then, use the C-Stick to Smash. At least, if I can remember correctly.

[QUIVO]

Nair is a good move that should be spammed in certain situations, but it's not something you should completely rely on.

[Megamioflust]

One last question. Is F Tilt agood anti air attack?

[JesiahTEG]

I almost never use Ftilt to be honest. I guess you could use it for anti air, but it seems pointless when you can just run away and shoot reverse arrows when someone is approaching from the air. Sometimes when people jump at me, I run under them and Usmash...Those 2 options are normally my anti air.

[Kraezy]

I haven't really been getting on forums so I don't know a lot of toon links tactics. What is a quickdraw arrow or something like that and how do you do it? How do you do a reverse arrow? What is RARing? Are there any other things TL can do that might be important to know?

[vbdood1337]

While approaching with nair, is it better to fastfall after your nair or quickdraw arrow cancel it (or can you do both at once?)

[JesiahTEG]

Kraezy- Reverse arrow is when you run away, press the opposite direction in the air, and then arrow before you land. It's also possible to do a reverse double arrow. RAR'ing is a Reverse Aerial Rush. It's when you run forwards, quickly hit the opposite direction, jump and then your character will be facing the opposite direction, so you can attack forward with you Back air.

vbdood1337- You can do both at once, however it's best to DI away when you hit them or their shield.

Also Kraezy, that's weird that you joined in Sep 2006 but have 2 posts lol

[vbdood1337]

Thanks. That's what I normally do, but i thought i heard someone say it was better to quickdraw it.

[Fiz]

I'm really furstrated with TL, I can't seem to find any reliable kill moves besides the Usmash/utilt, but after awhile people learn avoid it.
I started playing Marth and I feel like it is easier to kill with him, any advices ?

And the second thing that annoys me is edgeguarding , again I can't find any reliable attack to edgeguard my opponent, dair is too risky bair knocks them above (it actually helps them recover), the only thing that I find useful is the nair, and its not that great

[JesiahTEG]

His Fsmash, Usmash, and Fair are his best killing moves.

There is a reason why you feel like it's easier to kill with Marth...He's amazing at killing...He's probably the second best killer in the game, his versatility and strength help him kill.

Also, Toon Link is not that good at edgeguarding...again, Marth is much better at edgeguarding

[Santi]

I just wanted to say that your doing a good job helping out all the TL users, including myself, and in helping develope Toon Link's gameplay further.

It's not going un noticed. Keep up the good work.

[old king coal]

yeah your the most active toon link poster. well done! and santi keep those vids up.... i might post one soon

[JesiahTEG]

Thanks guys...I really enjoy studying Toon Link, and talking with you guys about him is my pleasure. :)

Also, check the matchup thread...I've added stats now too. xD

[JesiahTEG]

Ok, I've got a question.

Does anyone have any edgeguarding tricks vs any characters? I'm just curious to find out how everyone edgeguards other characters.

[samizdat]

I've played extensively against a good wolf and olimar, as well as a decent marth.

Against wolf: The boomerang works wonders. It's very easy to predict the spot wolf we be at when he enters into either of his recovery moves, and your boomerang can be thrown at nearly the exact same trajectory as his side-b recovery (he'll use it especially at lower percents, which is, of course, the best time to ledgeguard/gimp). If you've spaced your jump well where the boomerang interrupts wolf's side-b, you can get about the best fair setup you could hope for on a ledgeguard. When he tries to re-recover, the pre-delay of his side-b can be easily punished. On the whole, I play a very aggressive ledge game against wolf. Once I comboed my friend's wolf from 10% to a ~70% KO off the edge with boomerang -> fair -> double jump -> fair -> up+b edgehog, then bair -> double jump -> bair when he tried to recover. I believe I yelled when I did this. Oh, and keep in mind that edgehogging wolf's up+b is really easy with z-tether. Overall I'd suggest being aggressive and to boomerang, always keeping in mind wolf's predictability.

Against olimar: Sometimes it's useful to go straight to edgehog when olimar is ~80%. His up+b is very punishable, but a good olimar will scare you with an fair after their second jump, making you hesitate to edgehog. I counter this, however, by hitting down to drop off the ledge right before they double jump -> fair. This becomes the situation: you have the option of using multiple aerials, double jumping, or to pull out your very vertical recovery, while the olimar has one choice: a tether recovery that has an obvious trajectory and which leaves him momentarily hanging right where you have dropped to off the ledge. At this point I'll try hitting him with the back of a nair (since it hits them down and horizontally), but if I miss and I'm quick, I can do a quick double jump -> bair to try and hit him where he hangs. The window here small, yes, but it's very predictable, and I've frustrated the hell out of my friend with it.

Against marth: I believe marth is pretty straightforward. His double jump is actually quite high and it can make boomeranging him more difficult then you'd expect, as he is a tall character. At lower percents, I play a pretty defensive edge-guarding game against marth (unless I want to go of a surprise dair spike, as his recovery trajectory is mostly predictable). I will prepare a bomb and make sure I have my boomerang in hand when he grabs onto the ledge. Pressuring him when he gets up from the stage is relatively easy with projectiles, because he's slow when getting up or ledgehopping. I definitely go for edgehogs against marth once he's knocked a certain distance off the stage. But getting him to that percent is what the safer, more defensive edge guarding at lower percents will provide.

[Rawrness]

How can you gimp with TL? I find it almost impossible...

[YumClock]

This is more of a general question, but:
When spamming moves, we all know stale moves comes into effect, but
If you miss, does the move become stale?
because they only become "unstale" if you hit someone with it.

Cuz then arrow spamming would be awesome.
Edit: more awesome than it is currently.

[JesiahTEG]

Thanks dude, I'll even add those to the matchup thread when I get the chance.

Also, YumClock, You have to hit either an opponent , their shield, or an object such as the statues on Castle Siege in order to have your moves become stale. If they hit nothing, it does not affect their depreciation.

[Finch]

I almost never use fsmash. Is this bad?

Also my favorite way to kill with TL is with his upB. Anyone else?

I'm pretty sure hitting shields doesn't make moves stale.

[hewetty]

welll i would say up b is an ok killing move... except if missed... can result to very devastating effects mostly because u would usually kill around the off screen area and if missed they can just quickly u-air u.