Interesting Find, and while you are at it, rate my TL

[Jellyfishn]

Here are some vids of me at a tournament.

-VS Pit-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cu9nPJxddY
-VS Falco-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1pgXoptY0


I know i am not amazing, but I am definitely trying to improve. Any suggestions would be helpful.

I discovered during this tournament, that if you use TLs Fair against Falco's thrown reflector, it hits it back at him. Don't know if this is a new find, but thought it was worth a mention. Anyone that knows, are there few moves that do it, or is it a common thing? Happens at about 2:24 and 5:12 in the 2nd video. (At 2:24 I get hit as well as he does, and at 5:12, only he gets hit)

[Santi]

I've never seen the reflector hit back like that. And never heard of that either. Sweet find. That could help alot with Falco's who are reflector happy against Tl's projectiles. Good job.


Edit: Rating: Just for that find your TL is amazing. Keep working and practicing though :)

[Jellyfishn]

After further experimenting, I could not find another move that does this. I tried everything from TLs other aerials, to other disjointed hitbox characters, to caping it. Apparently TLs Fair has special properties. XD

[Roager]

That's awesome. Definitely a fun way to punish reflector spamming.

[ImpactAR]

My friend says Snake's third Jab sequence (the spinning kick) also reflects Falco's reflector. It seems that there are certain moves of certain characters that does this. So it seems that it's more of a "bad" property of Falco's reflector. Has anyone tested to see if TL's Fair repels any other projectile?

[PK-ow!]

After further experimenting, I could not find another move that does this. I tried everything from TLs other aerials, to other disjointed hitbox characters, to caping it. Apparently TLs Fair has special properties. XD

No, it's like.... the Reflector can be reflected itself, by a melee hit in a certain class of attacks.

No property - mechanical or graphical, or even in-universe "fluff" - is common to all of them, except for a property which is apparently not sufficient for doing this, and that is that the character "spins" while doing the attack, a 180.

For Toon Link, an fair does it. Does Whirling Blade do it?

You'd expect bair to do it too, but you said it doesn't.

[Jellyfishn]

I suppose that this should probably added to the falco boards now. As me and my bro were just messing around, I found a random dash attack that reflects it as well.... I just forgot whose it was. XD Will get back to you soon.

[Twiliz]

Haha, Master Sword > reflectors.

[Piman34]

nice tl, you're good at recovering, haha but should do more quickdraw, that way he can't approach as easily...overall pretty good...

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Thats pretty sweet.
Hmm
Toon Link was good too.

[Bomber7]

Ehh, not bad, your skills are that a little over of what I'd consider a n00b. I'm sure you just started playing and you have yet to get the use of him. I have no dout you'll improve over time.

[Ørion]

Nice find, I bet that Falco was surprised lol.

[VietGeek]

It's actual frmae specific, unless my game is broken, you can do it with about any melee attack if done right.

I've done it with Nair, Bair, and Marth's fair before. There's likely a handful of other attacks that can do it.

[znintendotaku]

very helpfull find....
TL isnt that great...

[Jellyfishn]

Thanks for the input guys. I know my TL isn't too great. I am really working hard at it, and since this was my first real tourney, I don't think I did too bad. My next tourney is today, so hopefully I do better. Also hopefully they are recording some matches so I can get some more input. Thanks once again.

Edit: Also VietGeek, you say that it's frame specific? So are there certain frames that damage you as well as him and certain frames that just damage him?

[0RLy]

Guys, you have probably never seen the Falco boards ever. This is NOT reflecting the reflector. If Falco gets hit while using the reflector, the reflector merely flies back towards him so that he catches it. The game was programmed to do this, so that Falco doesn't lose his reflector.

Falco gets hit with your fair, before his reflector could hit you at 5:13

At 2:25, your fair and his reflector trades hits. You get hit by the shine, and he gets hit by fair.

Most disjointed attacks with decent priority/range/speed can do the job to Falco's reflector. The timing is tricky but possible. Because of this, Falco's shine is a pretty crappy move offensively.

[Jellyfishn]

Thanks for clearing that up. But whatever you call it, it's useful and that is why it was posted. Sorry I didn't look more in the Falco boards.

Edit: After second evaluation, it doesn't look like my fair made contact with Falco at all.... just his reflector......

[UnderWing]

It's an extension of his vulnerable hitbox -- hit detection during many moves extends *outside* the character model itself, be it due to the nature of the animation or what have you. In both cases, if you try to step through it (YouTube isn't great for this) you can see the "flash" at the point of contact -- it's not actually *on* Falco's character model the first time -- it's up and to the left. However, the game counts the hit as it's TL's sword's hitbox (which is disjointed, or separated, from the character's "vulnerable" hitbox) hitting Falco's "extended" hitbox. A lot of the characters with disjointed moves (where a non-vulnerable weapon extends far beyond the character themselves, such as a sword or a non-visual "field" of attack, like Lucario's... everything...) will have a bigger vulnerable area (than just their character model) to make up for the fact that they're hard to hit (because their attacking hitbox will usually hit you first).

So, what happens in the videos is this: TL's sword's disjointed hitbox makes contact with the extended vulnerable spot (probably about as wide as the extended foot, and as tall as the character... including all the empty space above the foot), but the hitbox of the reflector is still out... and it hits TL, just like what happens when two people attack at the same time and go flying separate ways (rather than the attacks clashing). The second time, TL is able to avoid taking the damage altogether by simply not intersecting his hitbox with the reflector's damaging hitbox. 0Rly's right in saying that the reflector returning is just the game's way of Falco not losing it... it looks better than it just disappearing, but it serves no true function (as the reflector may as well be his sword -- it's a part of his character that never *really* gets disconnected from him, it only looks like he threw it out).

A similar situation would be, say, Ike's gigantic f-tilt (it's a sideways swipe directly outwards, when not angled). Similarly, if the timing were right, TL could be coming down and hitting the air above Ike's sword hand -- his hitbox is extended there. TL, however, can still get hit by the attack during the hitlag caused by him hitting Ike, but before the hitbox has entirely disappeared. The reason this is possible (the extended vulnerable hitboxes) is to balance the fact that the Ike's attacks, while slow, can cover a large amount of the approach vector.

I *hope* this all made sense, if it didn't, let me know...

--UnderWing

{I should really come up with a witty signature that serves as commentary on my overtly verbose nature...}

[TLMarth]

A good signature?
"Are you still there?"

[UnderWing]

A good signature?
"Are you still there?"

That's got freaking layers, man. Like, that's deep.

--UnderWing

[Jellyfishn]

Thanks UnderWing. Though sometimes annoying, your long posts always describe it with utmost detail and make sense most of the time.... anyway, thanks. XD