Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #1: Olimar (Rediscuss)

[l SOUP l]

The next match-up I would like to talk about is Wolf.

[VietGeek]

So you guys want me to do the summary already?! It's only been a day, almost two. I thought this was a weekly discussion. xD

Well, we can either continue or go on. If you guys are lusting for that next discussion, I'll post up the summary and then let you guys go through it before we go on to the next discussion then (to verify nothing stupid got in it).

Votes for the next weekly...or something:

Wolf: 1

[ZeroXMachine]

Lol, it's been like two days. That's ok, I'm not sure how much more I can say about Olimar. If anybody else has got anything, do share.

For "next week's" discussion, does it have to be someone Jesiah didn't cover in his thread? He did a great job with Meta Knight and Snake already, but I think a focused discussion on those two would be beneficial to all of us because of their tourney dominance.

[ImpactAR]

My vote goes for Snake. I play a pretty good Snake and Pit so I can't wait to give my insight about those two. I play a "decent" Wolf but I was told he dropped Wolf for Falco.

[VietGeek]

Lol, it's been like two days. That's ok, I'm not sure how much more I can say about Olimar. If anybody else has got anything, do share.

For "next week's" discussion, does it have to be someone Jesiah didn't cover in his thread? He did a great job with Meta Knight and Snake already, but I think a focused discussion on those two would be beneficial to all of us because of their tourney dominance.

Not at all, just vote for who you want to be discussed next.

Anyway, I got work, so the summary won't be finished until the weekend. So it'll be a week anyway. <_<

Current Votes:

Wolf - 1
SNAKE! - 1

[ZeroXMachine]

I vote for Snake.

[Bomber7]

I would like to learn how to handle a Wolf. His reflector would be a pain to us. Though I have learned to get around it by using projectiles unexpectedly. Still, my vote is for Wolf(or any other Starfox character)

[VietGeek]

Wolf - 2
Snake - 2

Continue on I suppose.

[Yukiwarashi]

I vote for Metaknight. Let's get this ******* out of the way.

*got owned by two good Metaknights today* >_>;

[JesiahTEG]

This is a good idea. This will also help me out since I am EXTREMELY busy as of late. How about, after the discussion, I'll put it all together and use the info in my matchup thread.

[vanderzant]

I vote for Zelda. I just can't beat em with TL =/

[VietGeek]

Wolf - 2
Snake - 2
Zelda - 1
Metaknight - 1

Sorry, guys I can't summarize until tomorrow. 12 hour work day is kinda...err, not letting me do this? xD

Should be done by Sunday, I'll post it up here to let you guys review, and then I'll give it to you Jesiah.

Okay, get some votes in. First one to go to 4 gets the match-up thread. If more than 1 gets four votes, I'll just randomly select.

I need to make this go faster, lol.

[l SOUP l]

Yes, faster.... Wolf

[Clink]

Knowing a skilled Olimar and myself being a TL Main. I find that Olimar may actually be TL's most top lvl of difficulty match-ups. Olimar has killer combos out of a grab into aerial attacks. He can Combo up to 50-60% if you don't DI correctly and get a good jump out of his aerial combos.

I've taken on a variety of Olimar players and I have to say the hardest type of player is an aggressive one. His Pikmin just stop all of TL's Projectiles and will just blow your bombs right in your own face if they are latched. Now yes, if they latch to your back or front side you can toss up or downward. But if the pikmin slightly at an angle, your bomb is gonna explode on ya'.

In order to take on an Olimar player is really to space from him grabbing you and getting arrows and the boomerang out as much as possible. If you catch him in a R.A.R (reverse aerial rush) and snag that lovely 50-60% Bair combo, you can get a good Fsmash out on Oli.

Another great way to take Oli out is the edge guard. if you get him off stage just snag the edge and tether hog so he can't Up-B and knock you off. That tether giving you the invisibility frames is helpful against this little beast who enslaved a race for his wrong doing.

A campin Oli isn't too hard. His gonna camp and just toss pikmin. Camp right back at him. Get bombs to rain on him from high untill you get close enough to hit him. Most campers I've done a pretty basic routine and bombed till I got him off edge. The camper used up all his pikmin and was so venerable after a slight tilt at a low % and it's over.

As a stage counter pick. I have to say that Lylat is a good stage for Oli, but it's also bad for him. Especially when it comes to edge hoggin' against him here. Truthfully, against any Olimar, I try to chose a stage that'll give me room to play with and gain some spam back at him from a good spacing distance. Also, rainbow Cruise is a good CP against Oli. it's such and obstacle for him to move around and it's hard for him to pull off those aerial combos so easily.

All around, I have to say that Olimar give TL and hell of a challenge over most characters. I can't give a ratio of what teh match-up really is. Mainly because it's all about how the player reacts to the other player in Brawl. it's not all about character teir as much as it used to be.

Overall, these characters are the ones that give TL a major challenge. This is all from what I exp and whom I've played. I'm not saying this is some legit list. it's ont in some order either

Marth
Falco
R.O.B
Olimar
Meta Knight
Snake
Dedede

[VietGeek]

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I think this thread and match-up severely needs some of the Olimar main's opinions.

Therefore...it's rediscussion time baby.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Hope he gimps himself 3 times. ;_;

Arrow cancel everything.

[-Tempest-]

Play Olimar dittos instead. Seriously, I get destroyed in this matchup. I just can't seem to do anything...

[Lobos]

Arrow cancel, boomerang, and nair's alot in this match up........less bombs and grabbing....

[copacetic]

olimar's i play seem to roll a lot, so up-b or d-smash to punish. Watch out for u-airs from below, they stop our dair and stay out long enough to catch us out of an air dodge.

don't use bombs that much, and arrow cancel everything

d-smash at low percentages then gimp. with our tether olimar should never be able to recover to the ledge

[Fino]

There are soooo many things wrong with this thread that I don't have the time to go through all of it. Hopefully tomorrow though.

As for the dsmash thing.... I've learned to stay at the middle of the stage until 20+ %
After playing mjg a few games... I have never taken a tlink to the edge until I hit over 20... EVER! ;-;


~Fino

[oOJaseOo]

Snap his b button and c stick off then he cant do his only move

[DanGR]

I'm not sure what to think about the TL-Oli matchup. Oli outcamps TL, so he's can't spam too much, but he's not necessarily forced to approach very quickly either...

SHnairs do well to get pikmin off and when you, as the TL player, mix up between them, SHADded zairs,
nair->arrow cancels, SHboomerang when he's not throwing pikmin, and taking out and throwing bombs from above, TL actually does better than most characters at dealing with Olimar's spacing/camping game. Characters have to play against Olimar differently than they're used to- same goes for TL. You've got to have meticulous spacing and be very patient, but at the same time don't give Olimar too much room. Stay at about midrange to long range and weave in and out, watching out for mainly grabs and spaced fsmashes, and throw your projectiles when you think the Oli has transitioned from his camp game to his spacing game. That's the way to go.

The reason I think the matchup is probably more than 60-40 (more around 65-35) in Oli's favor is because of the shear killing percent difference. Up until it's time to kill, they're pretty close with a slight advantage to Oli. Both have wonderful spacing games, and especially in this matchup it's a battle of who can space better. Olimar players try to get early kills and TLs try and get the early gimp- though it doesn't happen very often against Oli's that can whistle well. (TL is pretty floaty and it's not difficult to time whistles against him)

Thoughts?

[Tiersr4Queers]

I agree with Frigate Orpheon and Yoshi's Island for the points you made.

For Coneria, however, while all the things you've said are true, you've got to be careful about his up-throw. With the right Pikmin (blue and purple, I believe), he can kill Toon Link from as low as 50% on top of the fin. 50 Percent! That's dangerous. The close borders can help Olimar just as well as it can help you.

I also recommend Pirate Ship as a counterpick. If you get him in the water, all of his Pikmin die (except for the blue ones). And you can dair the crap out of him if you get the chance to. I'm not sure if his Pikmin die in the water areas found in Delfino Plaza.

I can't be entirely sure of this counterpick, but I think Rainbow Cruise may help gimp Olimar. The stage may simply move too fast for him and there are certain areas where poor jumpers really struggle. I'll test it out against my buddy and see how it fairs.:\ tats why that olly i fought said his cp was a secret...he picked corneria and raped me. I have to watch out for that 4rm nao on.

[TLMSheikant]

I'm not sure what to think about the TL-Oli matchup. Oli outcamps TL, so he's can't spam too much, but he's not necessarily forced to approach very quickly either...

SHnairs do well to get pikmin off and when you, as the TL player, mix up between them, SHADded zairs,
nair->arrow cancels, SHboomerang when he's not throwing pikmin, and taking out and throwing bombs from above, TL actually does better than most characters at dealing with Olimar's spacing/camping game. Characters have to play against Olimar differently than they're used to- same goes for TL. You've got to have meticulous spacing and be very patient, but at the same time don't give Olimar too much room. Stay at about midrange to long range and weave in and out, watching out for mainly grabs and spaced fsmashes, and throw your projectiles when you think the Oli has transitioned from his camp game to his spacing game. That's the way to go.

The reason I think the matchup is probably more than 60-40 (more around 65-35) in Oli's favor is because of the shear killing percent difference. Up until it's time to kill, they're pretty close with a slight advantage to Oli. Both have wonderful spacing games, and especially in this matchup it's a battle of who can space better. Olimar players try to get early kills and TLs try and get the early gimp- though it doesn't happen very often against Oli's that can whistle well. (TL is pretty floaty and it's not difficult to time whistles against him)

Thoughts?

My thoughts exactly. Toon link's usual game is hindered by oli but weve been given more tools than other characters to work around oli. I think its anywhere between 60-40 and 65-35 Oli. What are ur baddest stages as Oli DanGR? I think JJ, Frigate orpheon and RC are good but I might be wrong since Ive heard of an oli raping there XD.

[DanGR]

My thoughts exactly. Toon link's usual game is hindered by oli but weve been given more tools than other characters to work around oli. I think its anywhere between 60-40 and 65-35 Oli. What are ur baddest stages as Oli DanGR? I think JJ, Frigate orpheon and RC are good but I might be wrong since Ive heard of an oli raping there XD.
I don't like JJ personally. It's either I do very well there, or I do awful. I've been killed by the fish twice in a match before. >_> Oh, and it doesn't hinder our recovery as much as most people think.

Both Olimar and TL have similar needs as far as stages go, so I'm not really sure what I'd counterpick as the TL. When most TLs counterpick me, they go FD or smashville- probably because it's just a comfortable stage for them. It turns into a campfest though.

edit: As Oli I usually ban cruise, and CP battlefield or yoshi's. I'd rather fight close up, using the platforms as shelter from bomb, and using the low ceiling for upsmash kills.

[TLMSheikant]

JJ sucks for us too >.>. But thanks to heaven everytime I am taken there I dont get fished in tournies XD.

[Excellence]

How does Toon Link do on Luigi's Mansion?

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

He gets raped.
Especially by Olimar and DK.

[TLMSheikant]

LM is our gayest stage. :S

[copacetic]

This match is difficult and definitely different from the rest, but I'd hardly say it's 65-35. He's better on the ground, but if we get him in the air we should be able to rack up damage pretty well. And if we get him off stage we should be able to gimp him, either by forcing the up-b onto the stage and punishing or just tether-hogging the ledge.

Plus as long as our reaction time is good, for any d-smash or f-smash (except purples) by olimar that would kill, just hold down and spam z. I'll usually survive beyond 200% in these since 2 of his ~6 (i think?) kill moves are rendered moot.

Also make sure you pay attention to the pikmin color when you're in kill range. White will go for forward b or grab and pummel, blue will be back throw, purple can be any smash or u-throw, red has strong aerials i think? and yellows have more range so I usually get hit with u-smash. Did I get those right? Well either way those are the main moves to dodge, obviously they won't exclusively do those, but those will kill you earliest so they're the most threatening.

I'd say 55-45 or at worst 60-40. But then again my main sparring partner is an Oli, so I know how to fight him pretty well.

[Ashraf23]

Zair through flying pikmin and like Quivo said when near them work around theur shield. The shield and pivot grab a lot, so try to stay in the air most of the match you can. Once offstage, we can easily gimp them.

Like i said earlier stay in the air and kepp them at range (when necessary ) with zair.

[VietGeek]

DanGR, WE NEED YOUUUUUUU. BAAAWWWWWWWWWW

Serious, the lack of Olimar love is very...depressing.

[Hyro]

60 - 40 Toon Link

Every Olimar I've played said they have so much trouble moving. I've played dabuz the Olimar on AIB who won last season and even he says that. We always have close matches, he only wins because he analyzes me and does things like charging Dsmashes to catch my spotdodge. As long as the Toon Link knows the matchup, zair nair arrow, but mainly nair to arrow, I think it's definitley in our favor. Nair rapes pikmin hard. Don't pull out bombs, dsmash if you get the chance. I feel like we have a big advantage.

[dabuz]

*in a godly voice* "you have typed my name in this thread and therefore have summoned me to come here, what is your bidding?"

also, im gonna try one strategy next time we fight, if this works then this matchup will be at most 60-40 but more likely 50-50, if it doesn't then i say this matchup could become 65-35 when toon links meta game advances a little farther tbh, but currently its 604-, toonlink is better at wracking up damage and actually hitting with non projectiles but as i remember from using toonlink he needs openings to kill unless at ridiculous percents which oli is great at preventing, that is the only time oli can really do damage or kill because he can't handle the arrows+nair when he is relatively close to the edge, his grab game is gone, he is outprioritized, only real damage he can get is from camping or the above situation

[DanGR]

It can't be in the toon's favor. There's no way. One upair from Olimar = like 2 attacks + a projectile from TL. The shear amount of damage Oli is able to rack on TL from a single grab combo, and how freakishly low Oli kills him comparitively is alone enough to give Oli the advantage. As far as each character's ability to space and zone is concerned, I think they go pretty even; it's just that mistakes from TL mean MUCH, MUCH more than they do for Oli.

[Alzi]

I'd say 5:5, 6:4 Olimar (maybe). I have versed some pretty hardcore Olimar mainers and I manage to win in a best 2 of 3, but it was on wifi, so who knows XD.

I find olimars to be extremly harder on wi fi xD.

[OniTheWolf]

I say don't allow the Olimar to camp. Get every chance you have to DSmash him below 20% and gimp him! Don't bother playing spam with him, you will lose :/ Trust me, I know this from personal experiance, his throw combo's are b*tches, and his pivot grabbing range, Not to mention his killer USmash and FSmash. Olimar's also pretty god in the air, his NAir, FAir, and BAir are fairly quick, he also can spike. However, a good Oli is not dependent on spikes. Nontheless, don't allow the Olimar player to gimp you that way, or any other way for that matter. I believe he can recieve invincibility frames when he tether hogs the edge like Ton Link, so, watch out for that. As far as projectiles for this match up, I said don't camp, but boomerangs and bombs are your friends, so are quickdrawed arrows after aerials to close in for approaches.

Bottom line: Gimp him before he camps you out and hits you with his USmash or UThrow.

[~mjg~]

After playing fino today, I think the MU is like 80-20 olimar. It's impossible. Fino is so good. @.@

EDIT: FINO GOT ON MY LAPTOP AND POSTED THIS!!!! -.-

JUST LOCK THIS THREAD

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Don't let people get on your computer.