Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #2: Wolf (Rediscuss)

[VietGeek]

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7752/wolfgj1.png
Ratio: 50:50 Even

Synopsis:

OUTDATED
Match-up #2: Wolf

Character Overview:
At a quick glance you'd expect Wolf to be a clone of his Starfox buddies Fox and Falco, yet apart from his specials he sports a totally different playstyle. Wolf lacks speed in comparison but makes up for it in his strong smashes and general killing power.

Toon Link's Advantages/Strategies
- Hero’s shield blocks Wolf’s blaster
- Wolf’s recovery can be gimped quite easily. Once he is off the stage nair him and try and force an Up-B (and an edgehog). Wolf’s will always use their Side B unless forced to do otherwise.
- Bair strings are your friend
- Zair can work wonders for shield pressuring and spacing
- It is diffucult to do but abuse your grab range to punish Wolf’s laggy moves (smashes in particular)
- Approach with bombs and (where possible) from above
-Couterpicks – Lylat Cruise and Rainbow Cruise are good for exploiting Wolf’s predictable recovery

Toon Link’s Disadvantages/What to look out for
- Wolf’s Fsmash has godly range and is just a plain awesome kill move. Fear it.
- Difficult to out camp him especially with Wolf’s reflector
- Wolf’s bair can kill and a good Wolf will spam it for spacing out of sh’s
- Dsmash is one of Wolf's best smashes alongside Fsmash. Watch out for it
- Fair has no lag upon landing and can kill

Overall: Wolf and Toon Link are pretty even (even if the Disadvantages do seem a bit short), so 50:50

[Rawrness]

Watch out for the smashes especially fsmash and dsmash and the blaster can be deflected with your shield

[Ørion]

His projectile doesn't have great range, so do some spamming with SHDA mixed in with the boomerang and bomb from a distance forcing him to approach, which the wolf will might do with the </>B (sorry, don't know the name), in which case be ready for it and ready to punish the ending lag that accompanies the move.

[Venusdude21]

His B Air is nearly as good as Toon Links, so watch out for it. His smashes are fast, but have lag after them we can capitalize on. He can outcamp us with the Shine and Blaster. Really its all in the approach, if you get him over the edge, his recovery is So-so, so we can gimp him easily. But his Up B has good priority, so watch out. Also, the Side B stage spikes if you're not invincible while edgehogging. Overall, its a long hard uphill match.

[vanderzant]

Wolf is a very tough match up for Toon Link, and is very much in Wolf's favour. Toon Links best weapon against him is probably his aerial game.

[ZeroXMachine]

I can't say that I have much experience vs. Wolf, but his F-smash is ridiculous. It neutralizes projectiles with ease and has high priority. It comes out quickly and moves Wolf forward, giving him a great approach. Watch your spacing.

His blaster can multi-hit you if you get too close (the gun itself can hit you, knocking you into its laser shot).

You can b-air the **** out of Wolf though. He seems to be of optimal size and weight class to be juggled with b-air.

[Twiliz]

Wolf's fsmash is ridiculous yes, but when you manage to shield it you will punish him for the terrible lag he has after that.

[l SOUP l]

I don't know much about this match-up, and that is why I insisted on discussing him. What I usually do when I verse Wolf is try to outcamp him and get a string a bairs in there. If you get one bair in, it will most likely give you the chance to strike a 2nd or 3rd one.

[Santi]

Ive been on vacation for the last two weeks so I havent been able to play brawl. :(
Except at a recent Cali tourney.

But when I get home Tuesday/Wed., Ill play against Cake's wolf and get back into things and try to contribute some useful stuff.

[Rawrness]

Ive been on vacation for the last two weeks so I havent been able to play brawl. :(
Except at a recent Cali tourney.

But when I get home Tuesday/Wed., Ill play against Cake's wolf and get back into things and try to contribute some useful stuff.

How did you do in your tourney?

[Thechene]

Everybody says that wolf is a tough matchup for toon link.

i believe they give wolf way too much credit.

throw bombs at him from the sky.

he can't reflect them at you and it stops his laser spam.


short hop air dodge toward him.
weave back and forth in the air.

cancel the air dodge into the hookshot. if you space it well enough he can't punish you at all. pretty soon you'll learn how to set up combos out of this.

Zair into the enemy's shield keeping good distance. It lands with no lag so you can usually dash grab, dash short hop nair, dash upsmash.

dash grabs and pivot grabs undo wolfs dsmash and fsmash.

when he's inside you dash away and pivot grab him.

when you know he's going to fsmash toward you.

dash away and pivot grab him.

when you see him approaching you aerially.

dash away and pivot grab him.


in all of these circumstances a pivoted jump cancelled bomb toss would usually work if you have a bomb in hand.



and don't throw your boomerang directly at him ever. through it around the opponent.



not enough toon links zair.

and not enough toon links grab because of the lag.


if you learn it, you'll find that you can surprise enemies ALL THE TIME with it. wolfs forward smash can be directly grabbed or even dashed grabbed into if you're daring. your grab covers decent distance land comes out fast.

throw down to bair combo.

once they predict that, throw down wait to uptilt or sliding upsmash.

pay attention to where he lands. the moment he touches the ground you can dash grab him. your dash grab goes a surprising distance to most people who think they are safe.

even if they dodge into the ground and dodge immediatly as they land, there is a window of time you can grab them. right as they touch.

so you can down throw to a possible grab too.

and then one of my favorites, you can downthrow to somebody who expects bair combo.

they will air dodge almost asap.

thats when you float inside of their dodge and drift with them holding your upair. it outlasts airdodges.



and wolf is easy to keep away from the edge. or at least get some extra hits on while you're out there.



pressure and space wolf with your zair.
dodge every time before the zair itself. get use to that, it's one of toon link's best moves that not enough of these "good" toon link players use. they all overlook it.

eventually he'll roll throw the prioritizing pain of the zair spacing.

that's when you bair the bejesus out of him.

[l SOUP l]

Everybody says that wolf is a tough matchup for toon link.

i believe they give wolf way too much credit.

throw bombs at him from the sky.

he can't reflect them at you and it stops his laser spam.


short hop air dodge toward him.
weave back and forth in the air.

cancel the air dodge into the hookshot. if you space it well enough he can't punish you at all. pretty soon you'll learn how to set up combos out of this.

Zair into the enemy's shield keeping good distance. It lands with no lag so you can usually dash grab, dash short hop nair, dash upsmash.

dash grabs and pivot grabs undo wolfs dsmash and fsmash.

when he's inside you dash away and pivot grab him.

when you know he's going to fsmash toward you.

dash away and pivot grab him.

when you see him approaching you aerially.

dash away and pivot grab him.


in all of these circumstances a pivoted jump cancelled bomb toss would usually work if you have a bomb in hand.



and don't throw your boomerang directly at him ever. through it around the opponent.



not enough toon links zair.

and not enough toon links grab because of the lag.


if you learn it, you'll find that you can surprise enemies ALL THE TIME with it. wolfs forward smash can be directly grabbed or even dashed grabbed into if you're daring. your grab covers decent distance land comes out fast.

throw down to bair combo.

once they predict that, throw down wait to uptilt or sliding upsmash.

pay attention to where he lands. the moment he touches the ground you can dash grab him. your dash grab goes a surprising distance to most people who think they are safe.

even if they dodge into the ground and dodge immediatly as they land, there is a window of time you can grab them. right as they touch.

so you can down throw to a possible grab too.

and then one of my favorites, you can downthrow to somebody who expects bair combo.

they will air dodge almost asap.

thats when you float inside of their dodge and drift with them holding your upair. it outlasts airdodges.



and wolf is easy to keep away from the edge. or at least get some extra hits on while you're out there.



pressure and space wolf with your zair.
dodge every time before the zair itself. get use to that, it's one of toon link's best moves that not enough of these "good" toon link players use. they all overlook it.

eventually he'll roll throw the prioritizing pain of the zair spacing.

that's when you bair the bejesus out of him.

Everything you post is brilliant, I love you. LOL jk. Good stuff man, I seriously need to incorporate zair more into my game.

[ZeroXMachine]

Everybody says that wolf is a tough matchup for toon link.

i believe they give wolf way too much credit.

throw bombs at him from the sky.

he can't reflect them at you and it stops his laser spam.


short hop air dodge toward him.
weave back and forth in the air.

cancel the air dodge into the hookshot. if you space it well enough he can't punish you at all. pretty soon you'll learn how to set up combos out of this.

Zair into the enemy's shield keeping good distance. It lands with no lag so you can usually dash grab, dash short hop nair, dash upsmash.

dash grabs and pivot grabs undo wolfs dsmash and fsmash.

when he's inside you dash away and pivot grab him.

when you know he's going to fsmash toward you.

dash away and pivot grab him.

when you see him approaching you aerially.

dash away and pivot grab him.


in all of these circumstances a pivoted jump cancelled bomb toss would usually work if you have a bomb in hand.



and don't throw your boomerang directly at him ever. through it around the opponent.



not enough toon links zair.

and not enough toon links grab because of the lag.


if you learn it, you'll find that you can surprise enemies ALL THE TIME with it. wolfs forward smash can be directly grabbed or even dashed grabbed into if you're daring. your grab covers decent distance land comes out fast.

throw down to bair combo.

once they predict that, throw down wait to uptilt or sliding upsmash.

pay attention to where he lands. the moment he touches the ground you can dash grab him. your dash grab goes a surprising distance to most people who think they are safe.

even if they dodge into the ground and dodge immediatly as they land, there is a window of time you can grab them. right as they touch.

so you can down throw to a possible grab too.

and then one of my favorites, you can downthrow to somebody who expects bair combo.

they will air dodge almost asap.

thats when you float inside of their dodge and drift with them holding your upair. it outlasts airdodges.



and wolf is easy to keep away from the edge. or at least get some extra hits on while you're out there.



pressure and space wolf with your zair.
dodge every time before the zair itself. get use to that, it's one of toon link's best moves that not enough of these "good" toon link players use. they all overlook it.

eventually he'll roll throw the prioritizing pain of the zair spacing.

that's when you bair the bejesus out of him.


Can you elaborate more on proper use of zair? I've been trying to incorporate it more into my game, but I've yet to realize its power. I know it's there though! Do you typically time the zair so that it reaches max length right before you land, thereby enabling max spacing and reduce landing lag to zero? I'd like to see more videos of this technique in play because it would help against a whole more lot of characters than just Wolf.

[ZeroXMachine]

Nevermind, I found your sweet thread regarding the power of zair and hookshot.

[VietGeek]

Zair is Toon Link's equivalent to Marth's fair in all honesty. It's quick, effective, and sexy. xD

It can't kill, but it's lagless, huge range, comes out quick, and you can set up combos (Hookshot, throw bomb, Usmash/Hookshot to Fsmash at low %, etc.). Mix up between just using it and using it out of an airdodge to keep opponents from reading it beforehand (if you keep airdodging towards them, they'll eventually know what you're doing and will punish naturally).

The move has incredible range for a TL move, and while I am in no way the best TL player, I know the move is sexy. You can use it as a retreating move too. Zair and DI backward. Many possibilities.

Smarter foes will probably not let you pivot grab them for every single thing they do, but it is a viable move. Not against a level 9 CPU because they can read button inputs, but against humans, it does throw them off a bit because most tether users don't usually make an attempt to grab due to the terrible lag if they fail.

In which case a dash away to <whatever> can be a Usmash, Bair, Nair, and a jump-canceled bomb.

Anyway, Wolf players are few in between nowadays. But I'll agree approaching high is key. Don't use too many arrows here because he has a quick Reflector, and of course aim your boomerang down or up instead of direct as he'll reflect it otherwise.

Offstage, you can try to Nair him off and force an Up+B. From then just edgehog and he'll die.

As for a good Counterpick, I'll say Lylat. It's small so both of you can't camp too long. It moves here and there so it can screw off timing of arrow cancels, but...

because it moves, it screws up recovery of almost every character with a predictable recovery known to man. Marth, Ike, Fox, Falco, Wolf, whatever. You name it, one tilt of the stage can **** them off. Wolf having poor recovery already will make it an unsettling thing for him if you get him off stage at all.

Rainbow Cruise is looking to be good again, so it might be a choice.

[Santi]

How did you do in your tourney?

Haha I played good but did bad...
make sense?

1st place was DSF of course
2. Shadow
3. Futile
then you go down

see some names like
Gamble
Ajax
Mr. X
ms-king
mikehaze

and then in 33rd...
Santi
haha
which is ok since there was 65 entrants and I played Shadow first round.
Just my luck huh ha :)
Santi goes to losers bracket
but I felt I played good considering I hadn't been practicing all vacation.

Then lose to ms-king in losers bracket.
He played a good snake. Finished 17th place.

My first out of state tourney.
Tough bracket, but thats good cause I went to play good people, not just play scrubs and place high.

and my friendly against DSF stopped after like 15 seconds cause they needed the TV for tourney
:(
:(

[Thechene]

Haha I played good but did bad...
make sense?

1st place was DSF of course
2. Shadow
3. Futile
then you go down

see some names like
Gamble
Ajax
Mr. X
ms-king
mikehaze

and then in 33rd...
Santi
haha
which is ok since there was 65 entrants and I played Shadow first round.
Just my luck huh ha :)
Santi goes to losers bracket
but I felt I played good considering I hadn't been practicing all vacation.

Then lose to ms-king in losers bracket.
He played a good snake. Finished 17th place.

My first out of state tourney.
Tough bracket, but thats good cause I went to play good people, not just play scrubs and place high.

and my friendly against DSF stopped after like 15 seconds cause they needed the TV for tourney
:(
:(


i know how you feel.... lol

my toon link placed 33rd at the last mass madness.

i beat omegawhitemage but lost to vigilante.
i even had some positive momentum in the vigillante fight but i suicided twice in the first match.

it was my first tourny experience and i got too flustered.

my matches were long in between the WHOLE time and then right when i lost to vigilante i had to fight again.

discouraged...i lost that match too

early august there will be two more tournies. I think i'll fair better there

[VietGeek]

Err, bump.

Santi, the third match-up is going to be against you. >_>

[Santi]

Err, bump.

Santi, the third match-up is going to be against you. >_>

Haha alright
:)
dont expect any contribution from me


and Dojo better stay in the MK section :D

[VietGeek]

Lol, you got a picture of you to put on the match-up thread. Nah, j/k. xD

Seriously people, is that all we got on Wolf? =<

[Twiliz]

I think Thechene's post covers it up pretty well. Myself, I find bombs and shorthopping to be really useful when approaching Wolf.

[Santi]

Lol, you got a picture of you to put on the match-up thread. Nah, j/k. xD

Seriously people, is that all we got on Wolf? =<

Ill get some stuff later in the week. I know wolf gives Tl's alot of trouble and i def wanna help out.
I work the rest of the week but ill squeeze in some ssbb soon.

[Dojo.]

Err, bump.

Santi, the third match-up is going to be against you. >_>


I shall help with this. xD

[ZeroXMachine]

So can we vote for next week's discussion?

I vote either Snake or MK.

[Santi]

Snake!

Or diddy
or marth

[VietGeek]

So Santi, are those Wolf battles gonna happen? Just curious.

As for votes...:

Snake: 2
MK: 1
Diddy: 2
Marth <3: 1

I voted for Diddy too by the way. Diddy in the right hands literally tells you that whoever made the concept of tripping is simply sadistic.

No homo towards Marth also. :X

[Santi]

So Santi, are those Wolf battles gonna happen? Just curious.

As for votes...:

Snake: 2
MK: 1
Diddy: 2
Marth <3: 1

I voted for Diddy too by the way. Diddy in the right hands literally tells you that whoever made the concept of tripping is simply sadistic.

No homo towards Marth also. :X

I played Cake a couple times last night.
meh
i did worse than I thought.

I dont really know what to say. I dont really know this matchup, I just play normally.


I do Zair more. (but I do that more in general now.)
Spam more.
And from above alot too idk why. I love spamming on Wolf from above
Maybe cause

idk
I just do.
I just play the **** animal and do fine I guess .
sorry I dont got much

Just Gimp and Watch out for dmash and forward smash and sometimes Fair.

And you'll live to 150% almost all the time
ha

Just gimp the stupid thing.

Dsmash off stage>boomerand straight>standing arrow>get on ledge


Bye bye wolf stocky haha

I dont really have any video

Just that old match that I'm sure alot of people have seen.

[VietGeek]

So...just use Zair as a safe poke move to outrange his Bair, approach Wolf from above with bombs; stay aggressive when he's offstage to gimp him?

Oh, and juggle him and chain with Bair and stuff whenever possible?

Seems to me like it's just spacing smart and using a good mix of projectile and swordplay. Did I miss anything?

Because that's my summary, lol. I forgot I had this school project and I'm like all "**** I gotta read these two books that are like 200-300 pages each then write a summary. Gah, can't I just play video games all summer like normal people? lol."

Anyway, this thread summarizes itself since it's so short; people don't play as Wolf that much anymore and therefore we don't have much to say, huh?

TL;DR: Guyz, if you fight ANYONE, spam Zair. It's sexy. ^^

[l SOUP l]

Hmm, I vote for Lucario next.

[Santi]

So...just use Zair as a safe poke move to outrange his Bair, approach Wolf from above with bombs; stay aggressive when he's offstage to gimp him?

Oh, and juggle him and chain with Bair and stuff whenever possible?

Seems to me like it's just spacing smart and using a good mix of projectile and swordplay. Did I miss anything?

Because that's my summary, lol. I forgot I had this school project and I'm like all "**** I gotta read these two books that are like 200-300 pages each then write a summary. Gah, can't I just play video games all summer like normal people? lol."

Anyway, this thread summarizes itself since it's so short; people don't play as Wolf that much anymore and therefore we don't have much to say, huh?

TL;DR: Guyz, if you fight ANYONE, spam Zair. It's sexy. ^^

Yea that pretty much sums it up. I dont have a lot to contribute sorry.
I dont get to play a lot of different characters alot like others.

I'm sure Lobos , Quivo, Soup and others could put it in a lot more knowledge than myself.

I love Zair now. Omg

everyone serisouly start putting it into your gameplay.

Its so good for spacing and having priority when your facing your opponent and your too close to arrow or something.

[sasukebowser]

Ehh I'll be a little productive.
If the wolf uses down B, expect a Dsmash.
Famous wolf combo-
Fastfall Nair->Down B->Dsmash.

Also, expect an Fsmash after you shield an Fsmash.
Wolfs are dumb like that.
Actually, expect an Fsmash after everything.

[VietGeek]

Actually, expect an Fsmash after everything.

That's actually very accurate...

Snake: 2
MK: 1
Diddy: 2
Marth: 1
Lucario: 1

We need more votes people. You don't want me to randomly pick again. <_<

[l SOUP l]

*nudges viet* :)

[Twiliz]

Snake: 3
MK: 1
Diddy: 2
Marth: 1
Lucario: 1

[Dark Nemesis]

Wolf is a very tough match up for Toon Link, and is very much in Wolf's favour. Toon Links best weapon against him is probably his aerial game.
Wolf doesn't really have an advantage in this match up as long as you ALWAYS have a bomb in your hand.

A good Wolf will use his reflector offensive. You can't just "jump into the rape" due to its invicibility frames. Your best bet would be to use RAR. Boomerang to quickdraw to bomb to dash attack works wonders if you space it well (which is really hard against a fsmash spammer).

Playing defensive won't help you in this battle. Also, your shield will block his blaster.

Your best bet would be to play both offensive and defensive. Your best weapon against a Wolf is unpredictability.
Which means throwing bombs, boomerang and arrows randomly.

In the end, this is a neutral match up, where no one really has an advantage.

50/50.

[Twiliz]

Bah, all the Wolfs I fight are fsmash/dsmash/laser spammers and then they finish me off with bair or usmash.

[VietGeek]

Bah, all the Wolfs I fight are fsmash/dsmash/laser spammers and then they finish me off with bair or usmash.

At tournament level, I'd hope they would be a little more diverse than that. <_<

Anyway SOUP, no one is voting for Lucario so I guess he can't be a choice. I guess Snake is it.

Dark Nemesis, thanks for your input from the Wolf side. I'd agree it's 50/50 .

[AkaMaruChan]

TL's airgame is much much better then wolf's if you stay in the air you should be fine. If he spams his laser, short hop over it and zair him works like a charm. Stupid bloody Fsmash.....covers like a quarter of FD...exaggerating -.- (but not by much)

[_X_]

Wolf's whole game is pretty much

Lazor to bait - F-smash when close - D-smash if you roll - D-smash for edge guard - B air for kills - Up-smash for kills when it's fresh 'cause they never use it.

IMO.

[VietGeek]

Well, I figured this thread is kinda lol in terms of what was believed to be Wolf's metagame.

It is probably in our best interest to revisit this match-up.