TLMarth
08-08-2008, 11:06 PM
This will take some time. *SIGH*
If anybody wants to help, post characters from the bottom up, and it'll be easier for me to copy them in.
Also if I missed a match up thread, tell me, because I'm only looking at stickies and first pages.
Bowser
Can't find Match up threads!
Captain Falcon
This is all that the match up thread maker has:
3.6 Toon Link
Summary
-- I'll write this; please do not submit a summary
Difficulties
-- Arrow spam makes it hard to approach
+ Shield his arrows and slowly approach [00]
+ When you get close approach with NAirs because although they have bad priority, his sword is short and the landing lag is negligible [00]
-- Toon Link's DAir spikes very wellLolage.
+ Make sure you don't get grabbed near the edge; he will throw you offstage and quickly spike you [00]
+ Try to make your recoveries somewhat unpredictable; surprise him with an early Falcon Dive onto the stage instead of to the ledgeOh noes? (if he chases you offstage) [00]
Diddy Kong
Worst Match ups:
Diddy Kong’s worst match ups would have to be against projectile spammers like The Tri Force (Toon Link, Link, Zelda, and Sheik). Also Against the spaces (Wolf, Fox, Falco) who like to spam their lasers. The best way to beat the spam is to run up as close as you can to them, predict, and dodge (Down R or L) the lasers, and then hit a down smash and send them flying off the stage. Against characters with spam projectiles, you want to take and control the fight within the air to keep them from reaching the ground, and spamming it up some more.
Diddy Kong discussion vs TL:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638&page=27
up to page 29.
Donkey Kong
Match ups not including TL yet.
Falco
Match ups not including TL yet.
Fox
Toon Link
Toon Link is a beast. He is a camping master but that can be done away with by you shine. Of course you don't want to be shining away projectiles all day. This is where it gets hard. TL has a vastly superior aerial game, and his ground game is also very good. It may be best to wait for him to approach, but he probably won't. If your opponent actually approaches, you can take him down with smart play but he is a master camper and you will need to be patient but quick to get through any tight opening you can find. The moment he lets his guard down go at him and get your combos in, although his small size and good aerial maneuvering make this hard too. This is a hard fight; just do what you can to make it a little easier for yourself. 5/5
GaW
Toon Link: 4/6
Pretty much a pain in the ***. His extremely good projectile game forces you to go after him (you can't absorb anything he throws). Thus you have to learn how to dodge boomerangs and the like with air dodges to move in. Turtle dancing works well to cancel most projectiles and to approach the tl themselves. Once in sword range, make sure to keep your spacing well because their moves are very quick and annoying with a ranged grab to boot. Edgeguarding isn't always very easy, all i can say is to follow up your combos off the stage to force them to death.
Originally Posted by omegablackmage View Post
Toon Link: (4/6)
General Matchup:
* Toon link has an exceptional projectile game, utilizing arrows, bombs, and boomerangs to get in on GW's range and priority. All of the projectiles are unbucketable.
* Toon link has a fair amount of priority on some of his attacks, namely his dair and upair. You will find the upair consistently beating your dair, which is one of the main ways GW approaches from the air.
* Toon Link has an exceptional amount of ways to kill GW. Dsmash and fsmash are strong moves that have particular uses (either good range or speed). Upsmash is the most deadly, allowing toon link to run in quickly and pull out his upsmash, giving this move good range and speed. This move will kill GW quite early, so watch out for it. Up air, when fresh will also kill surprisingly quick.
* Toon Link's recovery is potentially one of the hardest to gimp in the game. Because he is such a floaty character, he is able to float below the stage very far, use a double jump and then use his up b (with a good priority) to cover incredible distances. This recovery path is the hardest for GW to punish.
* Other than projectile spamming, and the very risky dair off the stage, toon link is nearly unable to edgeguard GW.
* Toon Link has an exceptional combo game, making use of his multiple bair chains, grapple setups, projectiles, and uptilts that can rack up quite a bit of damage.
* GW has no particular problem comboing Toon Link aside from needing to watch out for the occasional high priority aerial.
General Strategies:
* The best method to beat TL's projectiles are to learn which moves will cancel out projectiles. Dtilt and Bair are the best at canceling most projectiles, even bombs if spaced correctly.
* Most of gw's approaching attacks (fair, bair, etc) and defensive attacks (dtilt) will be able to out range TL's approaches or defenses.
* To avoid getting hit by tl's exceptional smashes and kill moves, learn to optimize your spacing. If you can avoid riskily throwing out dairs (gets countered by an up air) and keep your spacing very tight, you shouldn't have too much trouble avoiding the kill moves. If you get hit by the first part of the fsmash or dsmash I believe it is possible to avoid the second hit by smash di'ing the first straight up and then jumping out.
* Some ways to edgeguard toon link are to learn to edgehog at the right times. If you can keep your invincibility frames as he moves by you, you can punish him by ledgehopping an up air (if the spacing is right), a key as he lands on the ground (pop up for a nair possibly), or a nair (good combo starter). Other options would be to get very aggressive with a fair off the stage or to try to cut through his up b with a dair.
* To avoid the back air chains against tl, make sure to di away every time.
* Learn to use the up air well, as it will slow down the dair (allowing room for you to punish tl) and it will usually open up a free smash if you can get under his up b.
Stages:
* Rainbow Cruise works well as you can maneuver the stage much better than tl and avoid his projectiles quite easily
* Avoid big open stages like FD, the more platforms, the better
Ganondorf
Match ups not including TL yet.
Ice Climbers
Match ups not including TL yet.
Ike
AAAAAAAAAAARGGH!
Jigglypuff
All I could find:
Umm SHDA when im pretty far away, as i get closer he'll do retreating boomerangs and throw some bombs. Only thing i have started doing is airdodge catching bombs, but it doesnt help much.
hmm, I bet that would be ****ing annoying as hell. Umm, do you have any vids by chance? I guess you could try flying just above the arrows and wait just above and outside his sword range for an opening to attack. If he trys to attack you, pound should outprioritize his ****. If he boomerangs or bombs try to avoid the hit and get in during his lag time. Hope that helps (I don't think it will but maybe), sorry I don't have any good TL experience.
King DDD
-.-
Kirby
Originally Posted by Toon Link
Toon Link is top tier. He is the best camper in this game, his aerials protect his body like a shield, and his smashes are quick and painful. I will be suggesting ways to fight him, but I want to reiterate that Toon Link has the advantage this battle and it will take some serious mindgames to overcome him.
First, there's the campy Toon Link that doesn't know how to fight up close, but makes up for it by guaranteeing that the other guy never gets to approach him. This type of fighter isn't too bad because Kirby is one of those characters that can get past the barrage of projectiles and get at him. Due to its tiny frame, Kirby only has to worry about the eight inches of roundness getting hit by projectiles, and fortunately that can be protected by aerials. Cancel out arrows and boomerangs with f-airs or b-airs, or simply spot-dodge them or short-hop air dodge. Jump and airdodge TL's bombs, and press A when you do so to try and catch them. Nothing throws off a camper's game more than getting attacked with projectiles.
When you're up close, take notice about what your enemy does. Down-smashes can be jumped over and follwed up with f-airs. Rolling can be beat by good reflexes and tech-chasing. Spot-dodging can be controlled by grabbing, any grab works at this point since you can't follow up your down throws before he has a chance to counter attack. Sheild the first hit of his foward smash and try to roll behind himbetween hits; this is the most punishable technique TL has and if you can catch him trying to use the second hit, smash him be all circumstances. If Toon Link is in the air, try to bait him into a d-air and then dodge to a side and try to punish the attack. Fighting him in the air is a dangerous ordeal, though, as all of his other aerials come out quickly and use that dang disjointed hitboxes of his. As in the Zelda match-up, fighting him from below is the best way to go, as TL users know that d-air can be punished, and they won't use it unless they think they will hit you.
I forgot to mention, you want to swallow Toon Link in this matchup. Get back at the projectile camper by shooting arrows right at him. And his recovery isn't too hard to edgeguard. If he has to use his up-B (after using the d-air recovery o_O), you can d-air him right above his head. It may take some tries to get him down, but the success of meteoring him is a sweet one. Of course, you can go, "the heck with this" and Kirbycide him after he used up his jumps. Then it just gets funny and throws off the match on unimaginable levels.
-Clai
Link
>.<
Lucario
urgh.
Lucas
Lucas players may use Ness with Lucas, and so switch to Ness. But for Lucas specifically I have no idea.
Luigi
A. Against Projectile users:
1. Luigi is a closed combat fighter, aerial wise and ground play as well. Spacing is key and especially when they are spamming their projectiles. (First try and come in with a Luigi Tornado. The projectiles won't damage you if they hit you, in fact some can be canceled or even deflected at an angle, some might cancel your move but this way you would have been able to get closer to your opponent.) Of course there are projectiles, like Samus's and Lucario's, that have the ability to charge up. This moves will hit you (NOTE: I have to check if a falling tornado cancels them out). If you are facing an opponent that has this projectile charged or partially charged up I advise you to block or dodge this projectile and the proceed with the technique. If the projectile your opponent canceled your Cyclone, they will probably try to use their projectile again if there is decent space between both of you, in this case I advise to SH and dodge the projectile and get in a range that it will be dangerous for your opponent to use their projectiles and one that your F-smash or Usmash can get a hit.
Now there are projectiles that with a falling tornado, Luigi can completely cancel them and will still remain in the animation of the tornado. With that you can use it to approach a camper etc. An example of these types of projectiles are:
a) Toon Link's and Link's Arrowsnoooooooooooooo
b) Toon Link's and Link's Boomerang'snooooooooooooo
c) Pit's arrows
(These are just examples and are not all of the projectiles Luigi can cancel in this way.)
Another approach against projectile users is by crawling under their projectiles. Either way luigidude90 explains it pretty well and I will quote his post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luigidude90
On to my contribution to crawling. this is something i never see used but against projectile spammers can give a different approach to tornadoing or shielding. as you know with shielding you have to come to a complete stop whereas with crawling you can avoid the projectiles and continue moving toward your opponent.
you can also do smashes or tilts out of crawling if you quickly let go of down on the control stick then input the desired move.
B. Against Sword Users:
1. Sword users have a big attack range while Luigi's is way smaller compared to their's (mainly because Luigi does not have a sword :P.) The best way to get in attack range against a sword user and at the same time be safe from his attacks is short hopping using Bair or Uair and DI'ing back, in other words it is advised that you do your spacing while your back is facing your opponent. Also, try to hit with the "tip" of your attack that way you will have an amazing space between you and your opponent. That way you will have a clear hit (unless they shielded of course) and if you did the DI back you will have decent spacing between you and your opponent so that his follow up attack can miss. The best way to punish them though is being in a decent spacing between both of you and while waiting for his attack use Luigi's fireballs and if he has used an attack try to get behind your opponent and punish them here. Of course when facing an Ike user you can DI back but their attack range is way bigger than what Luigi can DI back from a short hop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIGI
Another good aproach for sword users is : Short hop double fair then f-tilt on the landing. the 2 fairs OH? are just there to scare them but the f-tilt comes out right as you land.
Mario
LOL. Okay. Now let's talk about Toon Link. Let me see here. Toon Link destroys Mario in the air. His aerial priority's better than Mario's and his projectile spam can get annoying at times. Even if you cape a boomerang, a smart Toon Link would have another bomb in handy if you do. Also, his double arrow spam is annoying. His D-smash is nasty and his grab range is bigger than yours. However, if he misses, he's screwed and Mario's F-smash can beat some of his moves if spaced properly. Toon Link's U-smash is nasty too but you can just dodge it and punish it for him afterwards, space yourself properly to F-smash him, or just powershield and D-smash him. His F-smash isn't a big deal if you know how to deal with it. You can block and instantly do a quick D-smash before he does the second strike if you're close enough. If you want, you can dodge the second strike and punish him from there. Just make sure the first strike doesn't hit you, especially when you're at a high percentage. Mario can't really juggle much Toon Link because of his weight but he can't really combo Mario. However, his projectile game's better than yours, he can be trouble in close combat because his sword is a disjointed hitbox but still has more range, and his aerial priority's a pain. I say Toon Link has the advantage over Mario. 7-3 for me.
And Toon Link's spam>Cape. He has double arrow spam and boomerang and bomb combo spam. You would need to evade and get in on him but even then his moves for the most part beat out Mario's moves due to his range. Just make sure that once Toon Link makes a mistake, you get on him. Use Mario's other fast attacks to fight him. And like Jellyfishn basically said, Mario's recovery can be gimped easily. And Flameleon, Toon Link outranges Mario slightly, his aerials beat out yours, and has other fast attacks like D-smash that are a problem. There's that, and Toon Link can U-tilt juggle Mario which isn't fun to watch when you're Mario.
If you want to kill him fast, i recommend a angledupFsmash....
Marth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emblem Lord
Toon Link - TL has a solid projectile game with a good moveset to back it up. Remember that you can deal with his projectile game the same as Link's. The only difference is that his boomerang hits on the way back, so you are better off just jabbing it or shielding it. His arrows travel more slowly then Link's so he can use them as walls. TL can Short Hop Double arrow. Short hop then shoot an arrow then land and shoot another one. To deal with this you shoudl dash under the high arrow, then SH over the low one. But keep in mind that TL can just SH arrow then do anything he wants, so be on your guard. At close range you have the edge due to superior range, but he has good speed and moves so be careful. He can chain his bairs for easy combos and all his smashes are good for killing. Also his throw game is solid since his d-throw sets up really well for juggles. His recovery isn't stellar though so you can gimp it pretty easily so go for those off the stage Fairs and Nairs. TL is the opposite of Link in that he doesn't do alot of damge hit for hit, but his attacks have alot of knockback which makes him a good killer. Still, you have the advantage in range so use that to keep him out and play your zoning game once you get past the projectiles. He is light so he will die early, so you don't have to worry about him living to very high percents. Be aware that you can avoid the second hit of his f-smash at higher percents, you can DI up and then jump away. Remember that his bombs do have a larger blast radius then Link's and he can throw his Boomerang at sharp angles.
Meta Knight
Nope.
Ness
Toon Link - Ness
Lucas can do well against Toon Link, but I believe Ness is a better choice. This kid's projectiles can go a long way toward nullifying Lucas's projectile game. A simple arrow will cancel Lucas's PK Thunder, either by hitting him or the thunder itself, hit him out of PK Flash, and stop his fire short. Ness, on the other hand, can give chase better and keep Toon Link in the air. Be wary of his down air--it will send him downwards VERY fast. Also watch out for his very quick up tilt or smash, which have admirable KO power. Try to keep on top of him so that he doesn't camp with projectiles. If he tries to grab you, be ready to dodge and hit him with your own grab as he recovers SLOOWLY. Try to avoid PKT2 for recovery when possible, since arrows or his boomerang can cancel the thunder. Other than that ... Just be careful about his better than average range, and pummel the boy.
Olimar
Erm
Peach
Er.um.
Pikachu
Toon Link
General Discussion:
Toon Link is a character who is small like pikachu and is very floaty. He has good priority, a good airiel game, and good projectiles. Overall, Toon Link's airiels/projectiles>pika's airiels/projectile. He is a character who must be dealt with extreme caution. He can disrupt your momentum with boomerangs and bombs. There is also a technique that he can use which allows him to shoot 2 arrows before landing on the ground which can be hard to avoid without getting damage. Overall, this is a tough matchup for pikachu.
Pikachu's advantages:
1.) Pikachu's thunder discourages TL's dair
2.) Faster than TL
3.) Better Recover/Harder to spike
4.) TL has a slow and punishable grab
5.) The QAC (allows for dodging porjectiles and approaching campers with more ease)
6.) Dsmash can really punish TL due to his size
Pikachu's Disadvantages:
1.) TL's projectiles>Pika's projectiles(boomerang cancels the tjolt)
2.) TL's airiel game>Pika's
3.) TL can tether recovery
4.) TL has more range with his sword
5.) TL has the ability to spike
6.) Pika's grab is shorter than TL's(he uses the tether)
7.) Light weight = easier to kill
Strategy for winning:
This matchup is very intersting. Both characters have advantages over each other that, when exploited properly, can lead to victory. To beat Toon Link you have to be patient and make sure to capitalize on TL's mistakes and disadvantages.
To start off with, to beat TL you first have to get past his projectiles. His double arrow combined with the bombs and boomerang make for a pretty difficult time getting in close. Spamming the tjolt is good because is makes TL either shield/spotdodge/throw boomerang. This helps to get in closer because you can go airiel and hopefully get to him before he starts using his arrows and bombs again. Once you go airiel be sure to use the QAC or air dodge anything that comes your way. The QAC is great for this matchup because it can get TL within pika's attack range in no time. Plus, it can lead to some grabs and other combos.
Once you get withing range of TL, this game is most likely to go airiel. TL's tend to SH and lead into bair/fair. This is where mindgames comes into play. If you can get TL to attack you then you will have a much better chance at winning this match. When he comes at you just spotdodge and use your grabs/dsmash/fsmash. Be sure to chase after him to after the knowckback from your attack. Do not let him ge away. If he does then you have to repeat the process all over again. Once you get in close be sure to keep presuring him. Use your tilts in this matchup to. ftilt can help you space TL and disrupt his fsmash. Pika's fsmash outranges TL's first swing of his fsmash by a small margin, but it is outranged by his second swing. Be sure to try and avoid the second swing as much as possible. It is one of TL's best killing moves. Try to either powershield or roll away from him ASAP. If you roll away it is best to know that you have very little time time to punish TL so don't be surprised if TL dodges most of your attacks after he fsmashes. If you roll behind then you are in a much better position to damage him. I would suggest using the fsmash since it has a good horizonal knockback.
Toon Link's best killing moves are his bair/fsmash(second swing)/uair/usmash. Be sure to try and avoid these hits as much as possible. Pikachus light weight allows for TL to KO much easier since these moves have good priority. Pikachu's best killing moves are fsmash and thunder. Dsmash is good but it usually kills at higher percentages than the fsmash and thunder. TL horizontal recover is terrible compared to his vertical recovery. His upB can easily knock you off the edge if you aren't careful. This is the main reason the fsmash and thunder are good killing moves. They have good horizontal knockback and can kill at lower percentages. One thing to watch out for is TL's tether recover though. If you find yourself a victim of TL tether recover, quickly get off the ledge and prepare for attack. One strategy that is good for being edgeguarding the tether is to use your thunder . If you have grabbed onto the ledge, then press up on your control stick>quickly press down and then B. If done right pika will remain off the stage, use the thunder, then grab onto the ledge with invincibility frames. This technique is great for edgeguarding TL. It can knock him back a good distance , plus even if you get hit by an airiel the thunder will most likely hit him too, most likely resulting in his death.
Toon Link's edgeguarding is mainly his dtilt mixed with arrows and bombs. The dtilt can instantly spike you downwards and the projectiles can stall pika in the air just enough to get the ledge out of pika's range, allowing for TL to grab onto the edge and let you to fall for your doom. Be sure to DI away from projectiles and dodge the dtilt. Most TL's will not use their dair to edgeguard(the dair can spike if tipped) but if they do then be sure to QA out of the way. Most likely this will be the death of TL if they use the dair.It is very hard for TL to edgeguard pika though so don't be too worried.
As for pika's airiels, the most useful ones are the nair/fair/bair. The FF bair is very useful for racking up damage while the SHFF fair can be used to combo into a grab or dsmash. The nair is great for edguarding and/or hitting TL away from you in the air. It has good horizontal knockback so be sure to incorporate the nair into your strategy. It is useful for airiel as well as off the stage strategy.
Video:
Anther(Pikachu) vs Bowyer(Toon Link) [Frigate Orpheon]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YT_djAPO8Uk
Overall Matchup:
Toon Link> Pikachu
Pit
nope
Pokemon Trainer
squirtle is at a disadvantage
ivysaur is at an advantage
charizard is neutral
Vs. Toon Link
Squirtle= Horrible, toon link has rather good aerial game as well.
Ivy= Great, Keep your distance, his sword isn't longer than your vines. Vine whip when he goes for the airial then as hes falling get right underneath him and use bullet seed continuously
Char= Neutral? toon link's punching bag but charizard has superarmor on his up-b, which breaks up combos quite nicely. Also up-b easily KO lightwights like TL.
Rob
TL not included
Samoose
TL not included
Shiek
TL not included
Snake
TL not included
Sonic
TL not included.
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
TL
He really only destroys ZSS if you give him the space to do so. I keep thinking that it should be his favor for a few reasons, but it seems that if you play this match up intelligently, the favor may even tip to ZSS (though I think it's around even). When ZSS closes the gap on TL, there isn't much he can do to punish her really.While she has him in the air, she can actually combo him decently. Her Up B usually even pulls him down through his D-air. On a side note, I used to think that ZSS' Up B had a lot of priority because of this, but it doesn't really. The reason is probably that it hits TL and Link's side or their head.
If anybody wants to help, post characters from the bottom up, and it'll be easier for me to copy them in.
Also if I missed a match up thread, tell me, because I'm only looking at stickies and first pages.
Bowser
Can't find Match up threads!
Captain Falcon
This is all that the match up thread maker has:
3.6 Toon Link
Summary
-- I'll write this; please do not submit a summary
Difficulties
-- Arrow spam makes it hard to approach
+ Shield his arrows and slowly approach [00]
+ When you get close approach with NAirs because although they have bad priority, his sword is short and the landing lag is negligible [00]
-- Toon Link's DAir spikes very wellLolage.
+ Make sure you don't get grabbed near the edge; he will throw you offstage and quickly spike you [00]
+ Try to make your recoveries somewhat unpredictable; surprise him with an early Falcon Dive onto the stage instead of to the ledgeOh noes? (if he chases you offstage) [00]
Diddy Kong
Worst Match ups:
Diddy Kong’s worst match ups would have to be against projectile spammers like The Tri Force (Toon Link, Link, Zelda, and Sheik). Also Against the spaces (Wolf, Fox, Falco) who like to spam their lasers. The best way to beat the spam is to run up as close as you can to them, predict, and dodge (Down R or L) the lasers, and then hit a down smash and send them flying off the stage. Against characters with spam projectiles, you want to take and control the fight within the air to keep them from reaching the ground, and spamming it up some more.
Diddy Kong discussion vs TL:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638&page=27
up to page 29.
Donkey Kong
Match ups not including TL yet.
Falco
Match ups not including TL yet.
Fox
Toon Link
Toon Link is a beast. He is a camping master but that can be done away with by you shine. Of course you don't want to be shining away projectiles all day. This is where it gets hard. TL has a vastly superior aerial game, and his ground game is also very good. It may be best to wait for him to approach, but he probably won't. If your opponent actually approaches, you can take him down with smart play but he is a master camper and you will need to be patient but quick to get through any tight opening you can find. The moment he lets his guard down go at him and get your combos in, although his small size and good aerial maneuvering make this hard too. This is a hard fight; just do what you can to make it a little easier for yourself. 5/5
GaW
Toon Link: 4/6
Pretty much a pain in the ***. His extremely good projectile game forces you to go after him (you can't absorb anything he throws). Thus you have to learn how to dodge boomerangs and the like with air dodges to move in. Turtle dancing works well to cancel most projectiles and to approach the tl themselves. Once in sword range, make sure to keep your spacing well because their moves are very quick and annoying with a ranged grab to boot. Edgeguarding isn't always very easy, all i can say is to follow up your combos off the stage to force them to death.
Originally Posted by omegablackmage View Post
Toon Link: (4/6)
General Matchup:
* Toon link has an exceptional projectile game, utilizing arrows, bombs, and boomerangs to get in on GW's range and priority. All of the projectiles are unbucketable.
* Toon link has a fair amount of priority on some of his attacks, namely his dair and upair. You will find the upair consistently beating your dair, which is one of the main ways GW approaches from the air.
* Toon Link has an exceptional amount of ways to kill GW. Dsmash and fsmash are strong moves that have particular uses (either good range or speed). Upsmash is the most deadly, allowing toon link to run in quickly and pull out his upsmash, giving this move good range and speed. This move will kill GW quite early, so watch out for it. Up air, when fresh will also kill surprisingly quick.
* Toon Link's recovery is potentially one of the hardest to gimp in the game. Because he is such a floaty character, he is able to float below the stage very far, use a double jump and then use his up b (with a good priority) to cover incredible distances. This recovery path is the hardest for GW to punish.
* Other than projectile spamming, and the very risky dair off the stage, toon link is nearly unable to edgeguard GW.
* Toon Link has an exceptional combo game, making use of his multiple bair chains, grapple setups, projectiles, and uptilts that can rack up quite a bit of damage.
* GW has no particular problem comboing Toon Link aside from needing to watch out for the occasional high priority aerial.
General Strategies:
* The best method to beat TL's projectiles are to learn which moves will cancel out projectiles. Dtilt and Bair are the best at canceling most projectiles, even bombs if spaced correctly.
* Most of gw's approaching attacks (fair, bair, etc) and defensive attacks (dtilt) will be able to out range TL's approaches or defenses.
* To avoid getting hit by tl's exceptional smashes and kill moves, learn to optimize your spacing. If you can avoid riskily throwing out dairs (gets countered by an up air) and keep your spacing very tight, you shouldn't have too much trouble avoiding the kill moves. If you get hit by the first part of the fsmash or dsmash I believe it is possible to avoid the second hit by smash di'ing the first straight up and then jumping out.
* Some ways to edgeguard toon link are to learn to edgehog at the right times. If you can keep your invincibility frames as he moves by you, you can punish him by ledgehopping an up air (if the spacing is right), a key as he lands on the ground (pop up for a nair possibly), or a nair (good combo starter). Other options would be to get very aggressive with a fair off the stage or to try to cut through his up b with a dair.
* To avoid the back air chains against tl, make sure to di away every time.
* Learn to use the up air well, as it will slow down the dair (allowing room for you to punish tl) and it will usually open up a free smash if you can get under his up b.
Stages:
* Rainbow Cruise works well as you can maneuver the stage much better than tl and avoid his projectiles quite easily
* Avoid big open stages like FD, the more platforms, the better
Ganondorf
Match ups not including TL yet.
Ice Climbers
Match ups not including TL yet.
Ike
AAAAAAAAAAARGGH!
Jigglypuff
All I could find:
Umm SHDA when im pretty far away, as i get closer he'll do retreating boomerangs and throw some bombs. Only thing i have started doing is airdodge catching bombs, but it doesnt help much.
hmm, I bet that would be ****ing annoying as hell. Umm, do you have any vids by chance? I guess you could try flying just above the arrows and wait just above and outside his sword range for an opening to attack. If he trys to attack you, pound should outprioritize his ****. If he boomerangs or bombs try to avoid the hit and get in during his lag time. Hope that helps (I don't think it will but maybe), sorry I don't have any good TL experience.
King DDD
-.-
Kirby
Originally Posted by Toon Link
Toon Link is top tier. He is the best camper in this game, his aerials protect his body like a shield, and his smashes are quick and painful. I will be suggesting ways to fight him, but I want to reiterate that Toon Link has the advantage this battle and it will take some serious mindgames to overcome him.
First, there's the campy Toon Link that doesn't know how to fight up close, but makes up for it by guaranteeing that the other guy never gets to approach him. This type of fighter isn't too bad because Kirby is one of those characters that can get past the barrage of projectiles and get at him. Due to its tiny frame, Kirby only has to worry about the eight inches of roundness getting hit by projectiles, and fortunately that can be protected by aerials. Cancel out arrows and boomerangs with f-airs or b-airs, or simply spot-dodge them or short-hop air dodge. Jump and airdodge TL's bombs, and press A when you do so to try and catch them. Nothing throws off a camper's game more than getting attacked with projectiles.
When you're up close, take notice about what your enemy does. Down-smashes can be jumped over and follwed up with f-airs. Rolling can be beat by good reflexes and tech-chasing. Spot-dodging can be controlled by grabbing, any grab works at this point since you can't follow up your down throws before he has a chance to counter attack. Sheild the first hit of his foward smash and try to roll behind himbetween hits; this is the most punishable technique TL has and if you can catch him trying to use the second hit, smash him be all circumstances. If Toon Link is in the air, try to bait him into a d-air and then dodge to a side and try to punish the attack. Fighting him in the air is a dangerous ordeal, though, as all of his other aerials come out quickly and use that dang disjointed hitboxes of his. As in the Zelda match-up, fighting him from below is the best way to go, as TL users know that d-air can be punished, and they won't use it unless they think they will hit you.
I forgot to mention, you want to swallow Toon Link in this matchup. Get back at the projectile camper by shooting arrows right at him. And his recovery isn't too hard to edgeguard. If he has to use his up-B (after using the d-air recovery o_O), you can d-air him right above his head. It may take some tries to get him down, but the success of meteoring him is a sweet one. Of course, you can go, "the heck with this" and Kirbycide him after he used up his jumps. Then it just gets funny and throws off the match on unimaginable levels.
-Clai
Link
>.<
Lucario
urgh.
Lucas
Lucas players may use Ness with Lucas, and so switch to Ness. But for Lucas specifically I have no idea.
Luigi
A. Against Projectile users:
1. Luigi is a closed combat fighter, aerial wise and ground play as well. Spacing is key and especially when they are spamming their projectiles. (First try and come in with a Luigi Tornado. The projectiles won't damage you if they hit you, in fact some can be canceled or even deflected at an angle, some might cancel your move but this way you would have been able to get closer to your opponent.) Of course there are projectiles, like Samus's and Lucario's, that have the ability to charge up. This moves will hit you (NOTE: I have to check if a falling tornado cancels them out). If you are facing an opponent that has this projectile charged or partially charged up I advise you to block or dodge this projectile and the proceed with the technique. If the projectile your opponent canceled your Cyclone, they will probably try to use their projectile again if there is decent space between both of you, in this case I advise to SH and dodge the projectile and get in a range that it will be dangerous for your opponent to use their projectiles and one that your F-smash or Usmash can get a hit.
Now there are projectiles that with a falling tornado, Luigi can completely cancel them and will still remain in the animation of the tornado. With that you can use it to approach a camper etc. An example of these types of projectiles are:
a) Toon Link's and Link's Arrowsnoooooooooooooo
b) Toon Link's and Link's Boomerang'snooooooooooooo
c) Pit's arrows
(These are just examples and are not all of the projectiles Luigi can cancel in this way.)
Another approach against projectile users is by crawling under their projectiles. Either way luigidude90 explains it pretty well and I will quote his post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luigidude90
On to my contribution to crawling. this is something i never see used but against projectile spammers can give a different approach to tornadoing or shielding. as you know with shielding you have to come to a complete stop whereas with crawling you can avoid the projectiles and continue moving toward your opponent.
you can also do smashes or tilts out of crawling if you quickly let go of down on the control stick then input the desired move.
B. Against Sword Users:
1. Sword users have a big attack range while Luigi's is way smaller compared to their's (mainly because Luigi does not have a sword :P.) The best way to get in attack range against a sword user and at the same time be safe from his attacks is short hopping using Bair or Uair and DI'ing back, in other words it is advised that you do your spacing while your back is facing your opponent. Also, try to hit with the "tip" of your attack that way you will have an amazing space between you and your opponent. That way you will have a clear hit (unless they shielded of course) and if you did the DI back you will have decent spacing between you and your opponent so that his follow up attack can miss. The best way to punish them though is being in a decent spacing between both of you and while waiting for his attack use Luigi's fireballs and if he has used an attack try to get behind your opponent and punish them here. Of course when facing an Ike user you can DI back but their attack range is way bigger than what Luigi can DI back from a short hop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIGI
Another good aproach for sword users is : Short hop double fair then f-tilt on the landing. the 2 fairs OH? are just there to scare them but the f-tilt comes out right as you land.
Mario
LOL. Okay. Now let's talk about Toon Link. Let me see here. Toon Link destroys Mario in the air. His aerial priority's better than Mario's and his projectile spam can get annoying at times. Even if you cape a boomerang, a smart Toon Link would have another bomb in handy if you do. Also, his double arrow spam is annoying. His D-smash is nasty and his grab range is bigger than yours. However, if he misses, he's screwed and Mario's F-smash can beat some of his moves if spaced properly. Toon Link's U-smash is nasty too but you can just dodge it and punish it for him afterwards, space yourself properly to F-smash him, or just powershield and D-smash him. His F-smash isn't a big deal if you know how to deal with it. You can block and instantly do a quick D-smash before he does the second strike if you're close enough. If you want, you can dodge the second strike and punish him from there. Just make sure the first strike doesn't hit you, especially when you're at a high percentage. Mario can't really juggle much Toon Link because of his weight but he can't really combo Mario. However, his projectile game's better than yours, he can be trouble in close combat because his sword is a disjointed hitbox but still has more range, and his aerial priority's a pain. I say Toon Link has the advantage over Mario. 7-3 for me.
And Toon Link's spam>Cape. He has double arrow spam and boomerang and bomb combo spam. You would need to evade and get in on him but even then his moves for the most part beat out Mario's moves due to his range. Just make sure that once Toon Link makes a mistake, you get on him. Use Mario's other fast attacks to fight him. And like Jellyfishn basically said, Mario's recovery can be gimped easily. And Flameleon, Toon Link outranges Mario slightly, his aerials beat out yours, and has other fast attacks like D-smash that are a problem. There's that, and Toon Link can U-tilt juggle Mario which isn't fun to watch when you're Mario.
If you want to kill him fast, i recommend a angledupFsmash....
Marth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emblem Lord
Toon Link - TL has a solid projectile game with a good moveset to back it up. Remember that you can deal with his projectile game the same as Link's. The only difference is that his boomerang hits on the way back, so you are better off just jabbing it or shielding it. His arrows travel more slowly then Link's so he can use them as walls. TL can Short Hop Double arrow. Short hop then shoot an arrow then land and shoot another one. To deal with this you shoudl dash under the high arrow, then SH over the low one. But keep in mind that TL can just SH arrow then do anything he wants, so be on your guard. At close range you have the edge due to superior range, but he has good speed and moves so be careful. He can chain his bairs for easy combos and all his smashes are good for killing. Also his throw game is solid since his d-throw sets up really well for juggles. His recovery isn't stellar though so you can gimp it pretty easily so go for those off the stage Fairs and Nairs. TL is the opposite of Link in that he doesn't do alot of damge hit for hit, but his attacks have alot of knockback which makes him a good killer. Still, you have the advantage in range so use that to keep him out and play your zoning game once you get past the projectiles. He is light so he will die early, so you don't have to worry about him living to very high percents. Be aware that you can avoid the second hit of his f-smash at higher percents, you can DI up and then jump away. Remember that his bombs do have a larger blast radius then Link's and he can throw his Boomerang at sharp angles.
Meta Knight
Nope.
Ness
Toon Link - Ness
Lucas can do well against Toon Link, but I believe Ness is a better choice. This kid's projectiles can go a long way toward nullifying Lucas's projectile game. A simple arrow will cancel Lucas's PK Thunder, either by hitting him or the thunder itself, hit him out of PK Flash, and stop his fire short. Ness, on the other hand, can give chase better and keep Toon Link in the air. Be wary of his down air--it will send him downwards VERY fast. Also watch out for his very quick up tilt or smash, which have admirable KO power. Try to keep on top of him so that he doesn't camp with projectiles. If he tries to grab you, be ready to dodge and hit him with your own grab as he recovers SLOOWLY. Try to avoid PKT2 for recovery when possible, since arrows or his boomerang can cancel the thunder. Other than that ... Just be careful about his better than average range, and pummel the boy.
Olimar
Erm
Peach
Er.um.
Pikachu
Toon Link
General Discussion:
Toon Link is a character who is small like pikachu and is very floaty. He has good priority, a good airiel game, and good projectiles. Overall, Toon Link's airiels/projectiles>pika's airiels/projectile. He is a character who must be dealt with extreme caution. He can disrupt your momentum with boomerangs and bombs. There is also a technique that he can use which allows him to shoot 2 arrows before landing on the ground which can be hard to avoid without getting damage. Overall, this is a tough matchup for pikachu.
Pikachu's advantages:
1.) Pikachu's thunder discourages TL's dair
2.) Faster than TL
3.) Better Recover/Harder to spike
4.) TL has a slow and punishable grab
5.) The QAC (allows for dodging porjectiles and approaching campers with more ease)
6.) Dsmash can really punish TL due to his size
Pikachu's Disadvantages:
1.) TL's projectiles>Pika's projectiles(boomerang cancels the tjolt)
2.) TL's airiel game>Pika's
3.) TL can tether recovery
4.) TL has more range with his sword
5.) TL has the ability to spike
6.) Pika's grab is shorter than TL's(he uses the tether)
7.) Light weight = easier to kill
Strategy for winning:
This matchup is very intersting. Both characters have advantages over each other that, when exploited properly, can lead to victory. To beat Toon Link you have to be patient and make sure to capitalize on TL's mistakes and disadvantages.
To start off with, to beat TL you first have to get past his projectiles. His double arrow combined with the bombs and boomerang make for a pretty difficult time getting in close. Spamming the tjolt is good because is makes TL either shield/spotdodge/throw boomerang. This helps to get in closer because you can go airiel and hopefully get to him before he starts using his arrows and bombs again. Once you go airiel be sure to use the QAC or air dodge anything that comes your way. The QAC is great for this matchup because it can get TL within pika's attack range in no time. Plus, it can lead to some grabs and other combos.
Once you get withing range of TL, this game is most likely to go airiel. TL's tend to SH and lead into bair/fair. This is where mindgames comes into play. If you can get TL to attack you then you will have a much better chance at winning this match. When he comes at you just spotdodge and use your grabs/dsmash/fsmash. Be sure to chase after him to after the knowckback from your attack. Do not let him ge away. If he does then you have to repeat the process all over again. Once you get in close be sure to keep presuring him. Use your tilts in this matchup to. ftilt can help you space TL and disrupt his fsmash. Pika's fsmash outranges TL's first swing of his fsmash by a small margin, but it is outranged by his second swing. Be sure to try and avoid the second swing as much as possible. It is one of TL's best killing moves. Try to either powershield or roll away from him ASAP. If you roll away it is best to know that you have very little time time to punish TL so don't be surprised if TL dodges most of your attacks after he fsmashes. If you roll behind then you are in a much better position to damage him. I would suggest using the fsmash since it has a good horizonal knockback.
Toon Link's best killing moves are his bair/fsmash(second swing)/uair/usmash. Be sure to try and avoid these hits as much as possible. Pikachus light weight allows for TL to KO much easier since these moves have good priority. Pikachu's best killing moves are fsmash and thunder. Dsmash is good but it usually kills at higher percentages than the fsmash and thunder. TL horizontal recover is terrible compared to his vertical recovery. His upB can easily knock you off the edge if you aren't careful. This is the main reason the fsmash and thunder are good killing moves. They have good horizontal knockback and can kill at lower percentages. One thing to watch out for is TL's tether recover though. If you find yourself a victim of TL tether recover, quickly get off the ledge and prepare for attack. One strategy that is good for being edgeguarding the tether is to use your thunder . If you have grabbed onto the ledge, then press up on your control stick>quickly press down and then B. If done right pika will remain off the stage, use the thunder, then grab onto the ledge with invincibility frames. This technique is great for edgeguarding TL. It can knock him back a good distance , plus even if you get hit by an airiel the thunder will most likely hit him too, most likely resulting in his death.
Toon Link's edgeguarding is mainly his dtilt mixed with arrows and bombs. The dtilt can instantly spike you downwards and the projectiles can stall pika in the air just enough to get the ledge out of pika's range, allowing for TL to grab onto the edge and let you to fall for your doom. Be sure to DI away from projectiles and dodge the dtilt. Most TL's will not use their dair to edgeguard(the dair can spike if tipped) but if they do then be sure to QA out of the way. Most likely this will be the death of TL if they use the dair.It is very hard for TL to edgeguard pika though so don't be too worried.
As for pika's airiels, the most useful ones are the nair/fair/bair. The FF bair is very useful for racking up damage while the SHFF fair can be used to combo into a grab or dsmash. The nair is great for edguarding and/or hitting TL away from you in the air. It has good horizontal knockback so be sure to incorporate the nair into your strategy. It is useful for airiel as well as off the stage strategy.
Video:
Anther(Pikachu) vs Bowyer(Toon Link) [Frigate Orpheon]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YT_djAPO8Uk
Overall Matchup:
Toon Link> Pikachu
Pit
nope
Pokemon Trainer
squirtle is at a disadvantage
ivysaur is at an advantage
charizard is neutral
Vs. Toon Link
Squirtle= Horrible, toon link has rather good aerial game as well.
Ivy= Great, Keep your distance, his sword isn't longer than your vines. Vine whip when he goes for the airial then as hes falling get right underneath him and use bullet seed continuously
Char= Neutral? toon link's punching bag but charizard has superarmor on his up-b, which breaks up combos quite nicely. Also up-b easily KO lightwights like TL.
Rob
TL not included
Samoose
TL not included
Shiek
TL not included
Snake
TL not included
Sonic
TL not included.
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
TL
He really only destroys ZSS if you give him the space to do so. I keep thinking that it should be his favor for a few reasons, but it seems that if you play this match up intelligently, the favor may even tip to ZSS (though I think it's around even). When ZSS closes the gap on TL, there isn't much he can do to punish her really.While she has him in the air, she can actually combo him decently. Her Up B usually even pulls him down through his D-air. On a side note, I used to think that ZSS' Up B had a lot of priority because of this, but it doesn't really. The reason is probably that it hits TL and Link's side or their head.