Whats this?!??!? Santi has tourney videos?!?! :O [Archive]

Santi

08-19-2008, 02:00 PM

Here's a set against Dr. Mario Guy's Wario from a Waco tourney Sunday. He's really good. It was my first time ever to play a Wario. I figured it was time to post tourney videos because those really are the best videos to put up to get critiqued and get advice. I'm totally clueless on the matchup so advice on that would really help plus anythng in general you think could be done better.

Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7vF6xCj4pU

Match 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ieOUD40pc (Thanks vbdood1337)

SASUKE I TOOK YOUR ADVICE ABOUT SPIKING
He was riding his bike to the stage and I was like "Oh cool its safe to spike"
It didn't connect though but I lived. Just thought I'd tell you :)
Thats like all the advice I had on this matchup. Hylian did give me some words of wisdom on the waft before the match though.

Final Match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXvJjyr7vWg

I think these videos you can see my spam potential a lot better than say watching a friendly.
I'll also have more tourney videos from Hylian's but those will be mostly teams and some crew battle matches.

go go go

:)
comment

QUIVO

08-19-2008, 02:45 PM

vbdood1337

08-19-2008, 02:45 PM

Is this the second one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ieOUD40pc&feature=related :D

overall i thought you played pretty well. First death in the final game could have been avoided though. I liked the z-airs and ff n-airs. As soon as you hit the ground you popped right back up again, half the time it looked like you were all over the place :D

Lobos

08-19-2008, 03:03 PM

That's how TL should be played! Keep on being aggressive and moving so you don't become a target. You should of bair'd combo wario he doesn't get out of it that easily. Was the 1st video sped up?

WTF @ camera man?!?!? lol

Also when you get knock'd back like that in the 3rd match to DI better use fair's. You could have gotten below the edge and upb to sweet spot it to avoid the fsmash.

edit again lol: Our play styles are more and more similar now than before O.o With the only exception that I tend to hop less but spam more. 10/10 good job on tourney I need to step it up over here in md/va ^.^

Santi

08-19-2008, 03:42 PM

**** Santi, your TL is sexy. It hops around so much lol.

Anyway, as for my advice. I'd say you need to play safer and watch your spacing more. Sometimes it seemed like you were just throwing attacks hoping to hit him.

Good **** though. They were fun to watch.
Thanks man.
Good advice cause yor exactly right haha. I was really nervous and had no idea what to do.
I just was focused on always moving and throwing **** out.
I need to work on cooling the nerves and doing my thing.

Is this the second one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ieOUD40pc&feature=related :D

overall i thought you played pretty well. First death in the final game could have been avoided though. I liked the z-airs and ff n-airs. As soon as you hit the ground you popped right back up again, half the time it looked like you were all over the place :D

Ahh thank you :)
Idk how I missed that.

I feel like here are someof my deaths that could of been avoided. I made some big recovery mistakes.
Tourney nerves can do crazy stuff to your fingers.

Ha Zair and ff nairs can own.
Since the Zair auto cancels your toon can be lagless and move around like a little Yoda :D
Thanks for the comments.

That's how TL should be played! Keep on being aggressive and moving so you don't become a target. You should of bair'd combo wario he doesn't get out of it that easily. Was the 1st video sped up?

WTF @ camera man?!?!? lol

Also when you get knock'd back like that in the 3rd match to DI better use fair's. You could have gotten below the edge and upb to sweet spot it to avoid the fsmash.

edit again lol: Our play styles are more and more similar now than before O.o With the only exception that I tend to hop less but spam more. 10/10 good job on tourney I need to step it up over here in md/va ^.^

Haha yesss. Thanks. I was scared some users would be like wtf are you doing Santi your playing him all wrong. I'll remember that next time I play a Wario thank you.

Nope the first match was just at Santi Speed :)

I knowwww. Camera man missed my bomb recovery at Lylat after I was stage spiked :(

Glad were similair. Means I'm doing something right. I do need to spam more though like at times when I have the lead and try not to be aggressive.

QUIVO

08-19-2008, 03:54 PM

I love that you were really aggressive in these matches, and I wish it would always work. The only problem is that if you face smart players, aggression will eventually lead to your rape.

About tournament matches, I get really nervous too. I'd say just try to calm down and play smart and safe first. Once you build your confidence in the match, go ape **** and combo the hell out of them. Also, never do anything too flashy or hasty. Good players will punish your mistakes.

vbdood1337

08-19-2008, 04:30 PM

Since the Zair auto cancels your toon can be lagless and move around like a little Yoda :D

lol, that is exactly what i thought of when i watched it :D

l SOUP l

08-19-2008, 04:49 PM

Santi man, you are such a great TL player but you frustrate me so much xD. It seems that you are trying to play Brawl as if it was Melee. Yes, TL needs to be agressive, but when given space you can't just bair bair bair the air. Take a step back, spam a bit, let them come to you for once xD, you have to mix it up my friend. Other than that, very entertaining to watch.

Santi

08-19-2008, 05:35 PM

Haha how do you guys know me so well!?!?

I do play like it was melee. I want it to look and feel like Melee.
I want everything as fast as possible. I want no lag. I want combos.

And I need to realize this is brawl and slowing things down and simplifying thing and just spamming can pwn.

You guys are poiting out great things. Thank you. I'm glad I found the tourney videos.

lol, that is exactly what i thought of when i watched it :D

Haha niceee.
That's what I try to do
:)
Imagine my opponent is Count Dooku and then I go play
haha

VietGeek

08-19-2008, 07:35 PM

Santi, you're a little too offensive overall yeah. You weaved in and out with SH Hookshot for safety, but don't be afraid to follow up with a Nair more often if the Hookshot connects.

Now if it doesn't, feel free to run like hell.

Also, your post has the second video URL wrong. You need to copy the link, not just the link as it appears on Smashboards if you get what I mean. ^^

vbdood1337

08-19-2008, 07:51 PM

Yeah sorry Santi, here is the right link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ieOUD40pc

I found it by going to related videos, and that puts the feature=related or whatever at the end of the link.

sasukebowser

08-19-2008, 07:53 PM

AHH you were playing a Wario as Brown TL! O_O
Thats my daily routine. haha
Your play was amazing man.
I can't see match 2. Something about a malformed video ID.
Glad the spiking think helped though. If we ever have a Wario discussion topic, get ready to read the longest post you've ever read by me. =P
But nice work man. I liked your choice of moves and killing methods at times.

Ohhh okay I saw the second one.
Nice. Close. =)

AvantGarde

08-19-2008, 08:01 PM

Man that is sexy. Love use of Zair. My only advice is to maybe use grabs more, and use the boomerang only when needed. In the first he was attacking close range and you threw a boomerange, presumably as a deterrent on the way back, but you could've just smacked him from that close.

Hyro

08-19-2008, 08:23 PM

VietGeek

08-19-2008, 08:44 PM

Is there some kind of technique you're using for speed boosts? You look...too fast....I'm jealous lol.

How do you bomb to zair flawlessly? I can do it sometimes, but usually, when I press Z to zair, I airdodge instead.

It's called the camera skipping frames to make it look magical. Most recording equipment usually makes things faster as it doesn't record frame by frame.

Bomb on the height of your jump, and wait for the lag of the bomb throw to end before pressing Z or else you'll airdodge in the lag. The lag is very small, but if you want, you can learn how to Zair with Shield+A so that the lag thing with the Z button never occurs.

Hyro

08-19-2008, 08:49 PM

It's called the camera skipping frames to make it look magical. Most recording equipment usually makes things faster as it doesn't record frame by frame.

Bomb on the height of your jump, and wait for the lag of the bomb throw to end before pressing Z or else you'll airdodge in the lag. The lag is very small, but if you want, you can learn how to Zair with Shield+A so that the lag thing with the Z button never occurs.

Yeah I still can't get the Z because when I wait then hookshot, I only get a short distance with it before it cancels on the ground. Guess I'm gonna have to get used to Sheild+A. Thanks!

Dojo.

08-19-2008, 10:30 PM

He played even better against sethlons falco. He had me tripping balls. He was playing good here too but the day before against sethlons falco... I was like wtffff.
Those should of been recorded because he surpassed the play he did right here, even though I still think he's stepped it up alot.

Santi

08-19-2008, 10:59 PM

Santi, you're a little too offensive overall yeah. You weaved in and out with SH Hookshot for safety, but don't be afraid to follow up with a Nair more often if the Hookshot connects.

Now if it doesn't, feel free to run like hell.
I'll work on being more defensive at the right time.

Nair after hookshot more?
Ha that's like all I did after the Zair.
Zair>Aerial>quickdraw

Man that is sexy. Love use of Zair. My only advice is to maybe use grabs more, and use the boomerang only when needed. In the first he was attacking close range and you threw a boomerange, presumably as a deterrent on the way back, but you could've just smacked him from that close.
I re-watched the first video and I can see what your saying. There are also times I tried throwing boomerrang before it got back to me and then I got punished. Thanks for pointing that out. I need to be prepared to fight more upclose and use my ground game on small stages like Battlefield.

Is there some kind of technique you're using for speed boosts? You look...too fast....I'm jealous lol.

How do you bomb to zair flawlessly? I can do it sometimes, but usually, when I press Z to zair, I airdodge instead.

Another thing, what's your control setup Santi? Did you make any changes such as R jumping?

I think I throw bomb then push L then Z

Or L then A.

And I leave my controller setup as default.

VietGeek

08-19-2008, 11:12 PM

I'll work on being more defensive at the right time.

Nair after hookshot more?
Ha that's like all I did after the Zair.
Zair>Aerial>quickdraw

On the first video (couldn't watch the second one because I was lazy and needed to stop procrastinating on my work), you would give up your positional advantage because you wouldn't try to follow up on a lot of your Hookshots. I only saw a few follow-ups, the rest were retreats (which is good, but I felt like sometimes you gave up your advantage and made it level out more than it already was).

You're more experienced than me though, so I might just be babbling on about nothing. xD

Santi

08-19-2008, 11:22 PM

On the first video (couldn't watch the second one because I was lazy and needed to stop procrastinating on my work), you would give up your positional advantage because you wouldn't try to follow up on a lot of your Hookshots. I only saw a few follow-ups, the rest were retreats (which is good, but I felt like sometimes you gave up your advantage and made it level out more than it already was).

You're more experienced than me though, so I might just be babbling on about nothing. xD

I'm just confused because your saying I dont follow up my Zairs where in the first video your talking about my first 10 Zairs were followed by spaced aerials. 8 of them being Nairs the other two being Bairs. The other two Zairs that I didn't follow up where because of bad spacing and I was punished.

AkaMaruChan

08-20-2008, 12:07 AM

Popertop

08-20-2008, 12:56 AM

Okay, I watched the vids, but I'm not too familiar with Toon Link.

Santi, when you make it to a HOBO (I'll kill myself to show up to one, I don't care what my schedule says) I'll play you and we can grind out the matchup.

What little I did see from the vid: You had spacing issues. You need to abuse your disjointed range in this matchup. Wario's range is very limited although it might not feel like it at times due to his mobility in the air. I saw you run into a bunch of grabs due to misspaced aerials, and you walked right into Fsmashes at times. I'm not too familiar with TL's spam, but it looked like you missed some landing arrows to help deter Wario.

ugh, I hate talking about matchups without knowing the other character...

Things about Waft: Comes out on frame 5, is strongest right before it is fully charged, massive hitbox below Wario.

Uair: Too good. 18% fresh, and kills TL early 'cause he's floaty.

Fsmash: Has super armor on frames 8-11, attacks on frame 9. Very strong.

Ehh, that's it for now I guess. What did you have trouble with in the matchup?

furiousduffmanx

08-20-2008, 01:18 AM

yo santi just curious on what advice they told you about the waft??

Santi

08-20-2008, 04:05 PM

I know most people are telling you to play more defensively, but I personally enjoyed your play style. The aggressive playstyle doesn't quite suit wario, but against characters that you don't have the luxury to spam projectiles, such as falco or pit, your approach seems to be a great solution.

I've been practicing ff nairs, and watching you play with SO much Nairs makes me want to jump in and practice some more.

Utilts do kill too you know =X
Thanks :)

I actually did use the Utilt on the third match on Wario's second stock when I was on my last stock. I wanted to save my Upsmash for his final stock. It killed too :)

Okay, I watched the vids, but I'm not too familiar with Toon Link.

Santi, when you make it to a HOBO (I'll kill myself to show up to one, I don't care what my schedule says) I'll play you and we can grind out the matchup.

What little I did see from the vid: You had spacing issues. You need to abuse your disjointed range in this matchup. Wario's range is very limited although it might not feel like it at times due to his mobility in the air. I saw you run into a bunch of grabs due to misspaced aerials, and you walked right into Fsmashes at times. I'm not too familiar with TL's spam, but it looked like you missed some landing arrows to help deter Wario.

ugh, I hate talking about matchups without knowing the other character...

Things about Waft: Comes out on frame 5, is strongest right before it is fully charged, massive hitbox below Wario.

Uair: Too good. 18% fresh, and kills TL early 'cause he's floaty.

Fsmash: Has super armor on frames 8-11, attacks on frame 9. Very strong.

Ehh, that's it for now I guess. What did you have trouble with in the matchup?
Nicee sounds good thanks :)
I'll do my best to make it to HOBO too, I've already requested off work.
We'll play like 3467843658 friendlies :)

yesss nice fram data. Good info THANK YOU!
I jusy need practice in this matchup I think and get familiar with his moves and such. I did miss some quickdraws and those missed arrows did allow him to get close to me.

And ofcourse work on my spacing a little more. A lot more.
yo santi just curious on what advice they told you about the waft??

What Popertop said.

QUIVO

08-20-2008, 04:11 PM

Wario's like to stay in the air, especially since they WOP. So arrow cancels might not always be recommended.

Santi

08-20-2008, 06:44 PM

Wario's like to stay in the air, especially since they WOP. So arrow cancels might not always be recommended.

Thats true too.
I'll prolly quickdraw if I see them trying to land on the ground.

Bomber7

08-20-2008, 07:55 PM

You have skill, I'll give you that. Though your tourny vids just turned me off and I wasn't really impressed with what I saw. Yeah, jumping around like a ballerina works for you, but for some reason it just makes bored and want to fight you at the same time so that I'm not watching this balerina stuff from the sideline and I could be stopping it with my bomber's barage.

=D no offense to you or any of your fans.

DMG

08-21-2008, 12:42 AM

I was wondering why Santi's Vids had the highest views out of all of the Waco vids, I guess this thread answers that question. :laugh:

The only advice I can give is abuse your range more/play a keep away game more. Wario is a tough fighter, but if you can keep him further away then there's not much he can do about it.

Oh, and Bomber, his "ballerina" Style is what he should have been doing in the first place. Fight Wario in the Air, dissuade him from landing. I was having a hard time even approaching Santi, let alone sneak a Dair or Nair by. So his style was working, at least from my POV. ;)

I hope to see you and Dojo at the next HOBO, I gotta get a ride/convince people to go, but I have a feeling things will work out.

Rawrness

08-21-2008, 02:42 AM

You didn't punish him in the last video when he missed a fsmash. It takes him FOREVER to recover from fsmashes.

DMG

08-21-2008, 02:56 AM

You didn't punish him in the last video when he missed a fsmash. It takes him FOREVER to recover from fsmashes.

I did try to punish him with a grab, but I was too far away. It was hard to judge how far away he was cause the bomb smoke was in my way. You're talking about the Fsmash at around 5:42 or so right? Or are you referring to the Fsmashes I missed? Cause the ones I missed he was too far away to punish me with anything I think.

vanderzant

08-22-2008, 07:56 AM

I love your playstyle, so many TL's just don't fast fall enough. Keep improving man.

sasukebowser

08-22-2008, 09:06 AM

nvm this post. ~_~

UnderWing

08-22-2008, 09:57 AM

Man, I know I sure as **** don't fast fall nearly enough... Your play is pristine -- the tournament environment really affects change in your playstyle, it's interesting -- I'm very similar to you in a lot of ways, from what I see in your friendly matches online... but then in tournament it's incredibly high-pressure, constant movement style that's absolutely insane (and frankly, a bit hard to follow). I love it, and it's really an interesting style that I'm going to try to experiment with.

--UnderWing

Liquid_Kai?

08-22-2008, 12:00 PM

Comparison:

My toon link [-*----------------]

Santi's toon link [----------------*-]

Conclusion:
I'd get raped in tournys. Badly.

Very nice Toon Link, Very nice play style, i cant really comment because whats already been said is already there you dont need me to repete it. Just keep at it and keep up with tournys, its the best way to learn and improve.

Santi

08-22-2008, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the comments guys
:)

I'm going to a big Houston tourney on the 6th of Sept.

I'll try to take some of the critique I've already received and apply it when I go to Houston.

Rawrness

08-22-2008, 01:52 PM

I did try to punish him with a grab, but I was too far away. It was hard to judge how far away he was cause the bomb smoke was in my way. You're talking about the Fsmash at around 5:42 or so right? Or are you referring to the Fsmashes I missed? Cause the ones I missed he was too far away to punish me with anything I think.

I mean the ones that you missed. Like in the last video, he 'ranged you instead of dsmashing or something.

at 2:25 in the last video,

Hype

08-22-2008, 02:18 PM

I really liked the use of Zairs. It looked like you were working twice as hard as the wario.

Santi

08-22-2008, 02:26 PM

I really liked the use of Zairs. It looked like you were working twice as hard as the wario.

Haha it felt that way too. My fingers were killing me after that match. I dont know how many times I pushed my jump and B button.
His Wario could just dodge almost everything. That's why I had to throw out so much stuff.

UnderWing

08-22-2008, 05:48 PM

Santi

08-22-2008, 05:56 PM

It's all good play. You may want to experiment with more grabs, if you're careful with them -- I played a decent Wario recently in tournament, and it was hard to hit him until I realized I could stop approaching, counter his SH-DAir pattern with a SH'd NAir, and then just wait for him to screw up while trying other approaches. Grabbing is surprisingly unexpected from a TL, and most people don't know the incredible range... just go for the grab on the landing, after shielding his attack.

Naturally, projectiles are also important against him... but you obviously already know that. :P

I just gotta remember to get some tourney footage of myself... probably do it at the triweekly this Sunday :P.

--UnderWing
Haha dude you read my mind. I was working for about an hour on set ups that can lead into grabs.

I read somewhere that there is a little landing lag when people just land on the ground if they dont do an aerial or something. Idk. So I was working on just little things that can lead into grabs.

One thing I use on spacies if I get like a Zair>Grab.
I down throw. If they jump I go out there and Bair them.

But if they dont jump I Utilt. They usually can see that I'm going to uptilt so they airdodge. Then you just grab them right when they hit the ground. It can work good if you do it right.

Aslo I grab to mix up my Bair chains. When I see the opponent going to the ground to shield after I hit a Bair I just turn around grab and it catches them off guard pretty quick.

And ofcourse Just running toward a defensive opponent and grabbing sometimes works :)
haha sometimes.

Mostly just on Snakes who love to shield camp.