Why isn't Toon Link higher on Tier Lists with almost NO disadvantages?

[Jew and Magoo]

Character by character, Toon Link seems to have nearly as good of match-ups as Snake. He has, what, two bad match-ups in the whole game? And goes even with almost every high tiered character. It seems like Toon Link is the king of not having bad match-ups. He may not have all advantages, but he never has disadvantages. He's like the king of neutral, which would make one think that in the hands of simply a fantastic player, he'd be amazing.

[sasukebowser]

Because no one plays him. =(
And by no one, I mean not many people who are good/ go to tournaments.

[ToonTetra7]

Because no one plays him. =(
And by no one, I mean not many people who are good/ go to tournaments.

Yeah... :(

[AkaMaruChan]

Tinks KO power is a big disadvantage. Against snake. All he needs is like 70-80% to Utilt you to your doom, while you have to work twice as hard to be able to Usmash him at 140%. Big disadvantage. but as you say, in the hands of a fantastic player, he's amazing....too bad there aren't many of those around =/

[zaf]

try playing a marth or mk. You will probably lose. There are a lot of marths and mks out there. Chances are toons will run into them early on in a tournament therefore they will place bad. Tier list is based upon tournament winnings. So if toons arent winning, they are not getting higher placements

[dabuz]

because he has to force opponents to come in to get kills by using his projectile cause hes not great with kill moves on the offensive and most people know this and can use that to there advantagemaking it very hard to get good kills with him AND most people dont wanna deal with the steep learning curve for him or be that patient

[VietGeek]

That's because Toon Link is well-balanced with good traits all around except for general killing power. A big disadvantage in a floaty game where DI-ing toward stage usually saves you period.

He has good vertical kill power though, but he has no "safe-on-block" kill moves due to having one of the shortest disjoints in the entire game (which is bad in a game where shield and defense overpowers offense).

Also, what he can do, a handful of other characters can do better. Stage control? Diddy Kong. Gimps? Meta Knight. Kills and traps? Snake. Spacing and zone dictation via melee attacks? Marth. Camping? Falco. Set-ups? King Dedede.

Toon Link is good, but not good enough.

[dabuz]

exactly/////

[Ørion]

The tierlist isn't made soley on match-ups. It involves tournament results, and to an extent the opinion of the SBR. You need to have a decent number of people playing as toon link to achieve those things, which is something toon link doesn't have.

[vbdood1337]

Because he's "ok" in everything but not the best at anything. Even with a great projectile game, other characters can still do it better (Pit, R.O.B., the spacies, etc.). He can't projectile spam like Falco, Pit, or R.O.B. and he can't space like Marth or DK. Other characters do well because they are amazing at whatever they do best, not because they can do everything at an average level.

[l SOUP l]

Too unpopular, this will change very soon though.

[VietGeek]

Too unpopular, this will change very soon though.

...

How? Really. <_<

[sasukebowser]

...

How? Really. <_<

<_<

Don't doubt soup you fool. He has his ways.

[Ørion]

<_<

Don't doubt soup you fool. He has his ways.

Lol.

10chars

[VietGeek]

<_<

Don't doubt soup you fool. He has his ways.

I doubt soup because I like chowder more. Especially clam chowder.

Clam chowder > Chicken noodle soup.

If we find an infinite Up+B or a way to lengthen the Hookshot than maybe. <_<

*cough*Notgoingtohappen*cough*

[sasukebowser]

I doubt soup because I like chowder more. Especially clam chowder.

Clam chowder > Chicken noodle soup.

If we find an infinite Up+B or a way to lengthen the Hookshot than maybe. <_<

*cough*Notgoingtohappen*cough*

That made me hungry. ._.
No man Chicken noodle soup>>>>>every kind of chowder

It could happennnnnn.
You never know.
Idk, maybe we could find a way to do that thing shieks do with their chain with our Zair. ^_^

[VietGeek]

That made me hungry. ._.
No man Chicken noodle soup>>>>>every kind of chowder

It could happennnnnn.
You never know.
Idk, maybe we could find a way to do that thing shieks do with their chain with our Zair. ^_^

If our chain could crash the game and have the knockback of the final hit of Fsmash I would have to quit Brawl because I would be distracted by the dirty fantasies of using such a technique.

[crewster]

Shouldn't this discussion be on the official tier list thread (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725)

[Vect0r]

Toon Link does have disadvantages. He's light.

Other than that... not really a weakness.

[QUIVO]

Toon Link's Disadvantages: He doesn't have that great of range with his sword, most of his moves need to be set up (combos and kill moves), he's light enough to die early, his grab has mass lag if missed, etc.

[BrawlerHarrison]

Toon Link's ability to rack up damage should put him up a bit from just that, being light still can be helpful.

[AvantGarde]

Because tiers are a vicious cycle. Here's how it works: TL is unpopular, so not many people play as him, so he doesn't get many points, so people think he's bad. However, nobody will wake up and go "Wow! TL is amazing, but underplayed! I'm going to main him now!" when they could do the same with snake, MK, G&W, DDD, etc. The big get bigger and the small get smaller until you're either an enabler of popular characters or an advocate of underused characters.

[TLMarth]

The problem? The fantastic player.
Oh and did you read the match ups from JesiahTEG's thread?

[UnderWing]

Ok, to address the most important (and frankly, most obvious) issue here: Chicken Noodle Soup is indeed the epitome of the solid-liquid-hybrid food group, but only when made with home-made noodles and moist chicken (dry chicken, often overcooked, is the #1 flaw in most chicken noodle soups). Store-bought, canned CN Soup is, generally speaking, inferior to many other foodstuffs in this category, however, so the distinction is of the utmost importance.

Now then, to less important matters: the elements that determine tiers are tournament play (success), perceived potential for growth (SBR only -- sorry, your opinion doesn't *really* matter in the end), and popularity. Now, the characters who are successful in tournaments statistically (aka, have the most tournament wins) are generally the most used characters -- most popular. That popularity grows as more people see how successful they are, and then the success therefore grows. Their metagame development is tied to how many players (specifically *good* players) play the characters -- so the more popular characters have more people to develop better metagame for them, which in turn makes them stronger as a character... which, of course, makes them do better in tournaments, and we come back to more people using them because they do so well in tournaments. So you get this growth pattern where, as stated by others before me, the strong/popular/successful get stronger/popular/more successful, and the weak/unpopular/less successful in turn get less metagame development (a releative "weaker" growth pattern)/less popular (relative to the others)/less succesful (more players going to the "higher tier" characters leads to more non-TL wins in tournament, so less relative wins for TL). It's ugly, but it's just how it works.

I've just been writing what has turned into an essay on TL's weaknesses, so I think I'm going to go create a new topic for that... it's got some points I think are worth discussing, but it's really a summary of my observations of what to watch out for while playing TL... Look for that title :P.

--UnderWing

EDIT: Posted the thread -- it pretty much sums up my opinion. My final argument here, I guess, would be that, unfortunately, TL has a huge learning curve to become great with. He can be annoying to people at low-level play, but at tournament-level play there are a lot of not-so-obvious disadvantages that a TL has to overcome. While a player could go play Snake and just use tilts, and end up doing "fairly well", a player starting with TL has to learn to be very technical and careful in his strategies to stand a chance -- early death and late kills are the bane of a new TL player's existence, but they're all-to-common. The elements of playing TL that I love are almost exactly the elements that hold him back in the tier list... but tiers aren't everything. A great TL can play a lot of people and give them a run for their money, because if anything, the TL has already had to overcome his generalized disadvantages. But hey, that's just my opinion :P.

[TLMarth]

Extremely annoyingly hard to kill with. Sometimes I think I should just spam projectiles to 300%, then anything will kill.

[QUIVO]

Learn rough percentages of which the character will die from what attacks.

[UnderWing]

What's more, learn rough knockback at different percentages for different characters... with different attacks, at different levels of diminished returns. The best way to do it is to keep track of how diminished your moves are, individually, and then figure out each move's relative knockback on a character. RBNuke (the guy I practice with most often) is a Lucario main, and I actually use my up-smash as my indicator for knockback -- it's almost always pretty close to fully diminished (it's my most used/landed move against his Lucario, for some reason), so I know by how far he flies how close my other moves are to killing him... Since I know the relative nature of the knockback for my attacks, I can know by how far a usmash sends him when he'll die from a utilt, or dsmash, or something else.

Naturally, knowing rough numbers is useful as well -- try to classify characters by weight if you can. The nice thing about the "testing" that I do is that it basically works on all characters (though some characters, like Lucario, have a resistance to sideways or vertical knockback... take that into account), so if I get in a tournament match and someone picks a character I don't know off the top of my head, I can essentially "test" one move at a certain percentage and be able to tell when my other moves will be able to kill... extrapolating lots of useful information, on the fly, from a single hit.

That's how I do it, at least... and it seems to work out for me alright. :P

[Liquid_Kai?]

Disadvantages:
Meta Knight

O_o

[darkspatan117]

no actually tl is a solid char the real promblem it tl isn't in racking damage or having wonderful projectile spam it actually hard to ko, Since Tl can't combo into is best 3 kill move dair,upsmash and fsmash so for that reason he should be near top or high tier

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

i dont understand how 2 of the closest clones are so far from each other on the tier list:confused: shure toon link is faster, recovers a little better and has an incredible dair. but link is low and bottom tier when toon link is high and top tier. link is stronger and hevier and has faster arrows.:lick::lick:

[sasukebowser]

i dont understand how 2 of the closest clones are so far from each other on the tier list:confused: shure toon link is faster, recovers a little better and has an incredible dair. but link is low and bottom tier when toon link is high and top tier. link is stronger and hevier and has faster arrows.:lick::lick:

Do you want a five paragraph essay on why Ton Link is better?

[VietGeek]

Do you want a five paragraph essay on why Ton Link is better?

I think he can just lurk around and look at our older post.

Also, Toon Link is basically mid-tier. Probably should be around middle. There are too many good characters in this game. Link is low-tier, but basically because gay characters like Meta Knight thoroughly rape him. Him vs. Toon Link is even though. Jesiah says a slight advantage to TL, but in reality, the two are even against one another.

[sasukebowser]

I think he can just lurk around and look at our older post.

Also, Toon Link is basically mid-tier. Probably should be around middle. There are too many good characters in this game. Link is low-tier, but basically because gay characters like Meta Knight thoroughly rape him. Him vs. Toon Link is even though. Jesiah says a slight advantage to TL, but in reality, the two are even against one another.

I was talking about Ton Link Viet =O
Ton Link is God tier.
>__> dam spelling errors

[Santi]

Toon is God Tier. We just need a god who can wield toon's powers like it was his/her calling. Tough times lay ahead for Toon Link mains. Meta's and Snakes are ruling supreme in Tournies. Marth/Falco's and others are moving up. For those of you who wave the wand after a stock is taken, or for those who strive to win so they can see their character catch the pig at the end of the match, I ask you to stray strong. Stay true to your character. Too many are breaking under the pressure and as they break they go to the broken side. They take the easy way out. They abandon the boy who brings them joy. They abandon all hope. STAND TOGETHER TOONS!



/end of epic speech.

[sasukebowser]

You should be a motivational speaker Santi. That was very good.
Catching the pig when you win a match ftw.

[UnderWing]

Do you want a five paragraph essay on why Ton Link is better?

OOOH, FIVE PARAGRAPH ESSAYS! I'm awesome at those! Pick me, pick me! :P

In all seriousness, TL isn't God tier, top tier, or even up there in the "high" tier for a lot of already mentioned reasons -- in the right hands, he's incredible... but that player is also an incredible player. Like Chudat with Melee's IC's, there's some crazy stuff that TL can do... but it's very technical stuff, and when someone can much more easily pick up Snake an tilt their way to victory with half the effort, why bother with TL? There are many pitfalls to TL play (read my "5 paragraph essay" of another post, now with bonus 5 paragraph follow-up reply!), and that makes for a tricky learning curve... At tournament-level play, to do really well, you have to be flawless, and still be unpredictable. That's just easier said then done. :\

--UnderWing

PS: Good motivational speech indeed, Santi. :P

[sasukebowser]

*sigh* Don't compare Toon Link to Chu Dat man. ._.

Toon Link is Toon teir.
Thats above God tier to me.

[UnderWing]

*sigh* Don't compare Toon Link to Chu Dat man. ._.

Toon Link is Toon teir.
Thats above God tier to me.

It was an extreme example, I'll admit. Chu literally played two characters at once. TL's not *quite* that hard to play. :P

The thing is, you're talking about different tiers -- TL has the *potential* to be played with amazing style, grace, and effectiveness -- but with his learning curve, it's hard to get that good with him (you have to be a very talented player). The tiers aren't determined by how good a character *could* be, sadly... it's a combo of ease of use, tournament results, and popularity, blah blah blah. So yeah, TL's awesome, and he can take out other characters who are top and high tier... but it's not an easy thing to do.

--UnderWing