A little starter combo that can set up for gimps.

[Santi]

As we all are aware of, killing with Toon can be a pain. So lately I've been trying to implement gimping into my game to get some quick and early kills. I put together a combo (made from moves that Toon's love to use) that can be done at early percents and it can set up for an edgeguard.

Yall can mess around with it and tweak it up. Do what you want. I just thought I'd post this and just help out other users who want/need it.
Feel free to provide any other variations you have.

I get it the second time I try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCfHGPJzGSk


TOONS DISCUSS
:)

[QUIVO]

Any other percent's that work at? I like it a lot. The only problem is that he has to trip : (

[Santi]

Any other percent's that work at? I like it a lot. The only problem is that he has to trip : (

The Nair trips up untill 18%.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149978
^^ That's the thread on all the moves that can trip.

And Zair only does about 4% so you have about 4 hits to attempt this at.


Just aim for the top of their head with the nair and it should trip.

[QUIVO]

Oh nice, I didn't know about that. I thought it just tripped form behind.

[Santi]

Oh nice, I didn't know about that. I thought it just tripped form behind.

Nope it trips from both sides.

I guess you could try tripping with the back side then turn around and down smash.
That could help shoot them even farther from the edge.

[sasukebowser]

I liked it.
Never would have figured Nair to Dsmash.
Niiiiceeee.
I don't really think I have anything important to add sorry.
I know nothing of gimping outside of the edge. =P

[Ørion]

It looked good. I'm not so great at knowing exactly what happens in fast videos, so can you please confirm this for me? It looked like SH zair, SH nair, dsmash, run to the edge, boomerang, jump off fair, and grab the edge. Is this right?

Also, it's hard to tell from the video (I don't have a wii with me to test it) that the zair is fairly hard to space. Is there something else with similar knockback that could be used that's easier to hit with to make it easier to use in a match? Anyway, looks good.

[Stoo99]

yep, thats what it was orion

Also this is looking veerry nice, though I sometimes forget about my zair as I prefer retreating nair > quickdraw an an approach

[Lobos]

From experience, a good player will either tech or roll faster before the dsmash can come out but that depends on their character. The stage matters also and recovery from a actual player > cpu. It's something I want put into my game play but people that I play can already see it coming.

I just noticed that when you zair you dodge first, is there any reason for that? am I missing something?

[QUIVO]

People would expect the trip? I don't think many people around here know that it trips.

[Santi]

From experience, a good player will either tech or roll faster before the dsmash can come out but that depends on their character. The stage matters also and recovery from a actual player > cpu. It's something I want put into my game play but people that I play can already see it coming.

I just noticed that when you zair you dodge first, is there any reason for that? am I missing something?

You can tech a move that trips you???
Also there is a litte stun time from the trip. That's why after you trip on a banana from diddy you sit there for a little bit and he can link combos. OR when MK does a Dtilt and trips you, your stunned for a short period of time and MK goes and grabs you.

Same with this. The opponent can roll but if your fast enough you can get the Dsmash out.
Just fastfall the Nair and Dsmash as soon as you touch the ground.



EDIT: I air dodge because to fast fall the zair you need to do it a little after the peak of your jump. So you jump,wait, then zair. Instead of just waiting I airdodge to be safe incase the opponent attacks or shoots something or whatever. It also looks kinda trippy and opponents get confused when they just see you jump and airdodge. They then try to do something but they eat a Zair :) Plus I'm just used to it because that's how you zair with a bomb in your hand.

[Lobos]

Oh I see I don't zair with bombs often, about the teching maybe im just confused thinking about tech rolling or something I don't know lol

Good **** tho, this is one of those things I've done before but just in a spur of the moment things. I'll try to put in my game play with videos.

[Santi]

Oh I see I don't zair with bombs often, about the teching maybe im just confused thinking about tech rolling or something I don't know lol

Good **** tho, this is one of those things I've done before but just in a spur of the moment things. I'll try to put in my game play with videos.

Zair with a bomb can def step up any toon's game. People dont expect it.

Yea I don't think your able to tech because you dont leave the ground, that's why it trips.


Alright sounds good. I just want people to test this out and just have it under their belt incase the time comes up when the opputunity is there.

[QUIVO]

Zair > bombthrow > nair is so good.

[Stoo99]

Gave it a try but doesn't seem like it'll be too useful, mainly because tripping isnt guaranteed plus you have to be real close the the edge for it to work, since it moves you away from the edge as you do it

zair > bomb throw > nair sounds good though, I've gotta try that

[Vect0r]

Maybe you could use the boomerang? That would be nice, for some extra hits.

[Hyro]

He did Vector.

As for this combo, I've yet to NOT get it when the opponent trips. If he doesn't, it'll still work if you get your dsmash.

I think it's awesome since now we have two combos for when we're by the edge. I used to always try to roll behind them and get in some bairs for a Kizzu combo, but now I can stay on my side and zair them for my combo. Cool stuff Santi.

And this is hardly situational because we all know that Toon Link has some amazing luring powers when he wants to bring people to the edge. It's called spam ;)

[QUIVO]

Yea you can spam to lure them, but you really shouldn't be hitting him since its supposed to trip until 18%.

[UnderWing]

Royalty -- I think Vector was talking about during the combo part of it, not the gimp afterwards. I don't see this killing consistently against humans, since the gimp doesn't work as well (humans are way better at recovering, etc. etc.) The boomer limits the number of times you might be able to try this (if you try to use it in the combo), but it leads to some interesting ideas -- if you can get a boomerang behind them, you can use it to pressure shield... or if it hits on it's way back, you could certainly lead into this.

If I'm not mistaken, the reason that the chain (and the nair) are both non-techable is that they don't send a character into tumbling frames, but rather just have some hitstun. Same with boomerang, really, so it has potential to mix things up (I try to have a boomerang on the other side of my enemies at all times anyway... it's a wonderful tactic that, when the camera's close, often hits them to interrupt a grab or other combo. It's saved me numerous times, and it's the reason I use boomerangs probably more than arrows :P).

And Quivo -- good point, though most players these days have the timing down to perfect shield most projectiles anyway... I find it incredibly frustrating that all the projectiles in the world aren't enough to actually "pressure" some people -- my friend (Lucario main) will just wait for me to come to him half the time, since no amount of SHDA's, boomerangs, and bombs are enough to coax him over.

[QUIVO]

That's how Overswarm is... I cannot overwhelm/pressure him with arrows or boomerangs, but clever bomb play almost always does the trick. He just powershields everything...

[UnderWing]

Heh, my primary practice partner's RBNuke (not really active on the boards, even less so than I am)... as a Lucario, he just charges his sphere and shields me all day long. Even with bombs, it's tricky to hit him. I usually end up rushing in and getting punished for my stupidity... :\

But yeah, having a single person as someone you play against 10x more often then anyone else kinda sucks, but I can't bring myself to play online -- too much lag. :\

[Lobos]

Heh, my primary practice partner's RBNuke (not really active on the boards, even less so than I am)... as a Lucario, he just charges his sphere and shields me all day long. Even with bombs, it's tricky to hit him. I usually end up rushing in and getting punished for my stupidity... :\

But yeah, having a single person as someone you play against 10x more often then anyone else kinda sucks, but I can't bring myself to play online -- too much lag. :\

LOL I play online every once in a full moon and then get turned off by how much the lag effects my game play. I only do that when I don't have no one to play against which is most of the time but we usually do have smashfest in my areas with 8-20 ppl lol like once a week plus we have at least 2-3 tournaments a month around here.

[sasukebowser]

You guys at least have decent people to practice with. T_T

[VietGeek]

You guys at least have decent people to practice with. T_T

My thoughts exactly. I actually think using Wi-Fi makes me play really bad later.

I haven't had a serious offline match in a month (lost my ride to my monthly, hence why I have no videos up this month). I think I've gotten really bad. Both my characters have lost their magic.

And my Hookshot combo doesn't work on Wi-Fi, lol. *cries inside a little*

[QUIVO]

I just tried playing on wifi and wow. It sucked so hard.

[UnderWing]

Yeah, I'm fortunate enough to have a couple friends who Smash competitively, and luckily this year I'm going to UCSD... which just means more people there. :P And of course, not having to drive to the awesome Tri-Weeklies. :D

[sasukebowser]

This is lame man I stay bad because I have no one good to play.
I'm going to my first tourny tomorrow. No practice, nothin. I'm so dead.
I'm going alone too. ._.
I wanted to record my matches but oh well.

[Santi]

This is lame man I stay bad because I have no one good to play.
I'm going to my first tourny tomorrow. No practice, nothin. I'm so dead.
I'm going alone too. ._.
I wanted to record my matches but oh well.

That sucks.
Good Luck though.


When I have no one to play I just go to training mode and work on my projectile work.

I haven't played anyone all day.

So right now I'm working on Short Hop bomb drop>Nair>catch bomb.

It looks sick and not enough people are incorporating bomb drop catch or bomb throw catch into their gameplay. And this can help like if your playing IC's and always want a bomb in your hand (to interupt Chaingrabs)and you can still attack.

So when you have no one good to play just work on techniques like that and getting faster.

[UnderWing]

Oh, man, make sure to play as many friendlies as you can! Friendlies are where I learn the most, really -- I get in 5-7 friendlies a tournament, and on top of the 3-4 matches I get in the tournament itself, I always leave with an element of my gameplay that I know I need to work on. Good luck, don't get discouraged if you get knocked out early... happens to the best of us (and me too!)

And hey, next time there's a big tournament in SoCal, look for me -- I try to make it to the big ones, even if they're in LA, Irvine, etc. I was almost going to Axis, then I remembered that it's the same weekend as PAX... :P

[Santi]

That's what I love about Toon. There's always something to work on.

[UnderWing]

That sucks.
Good Luck though.


When I have no one to play I just go to training mode and work on my projectile work.

I haven't played anyone all day.

So right now I'm working on Short Hop bomb drop>Nair>catch bomb.

It looks sick and not enough people are incorporating bomb drop catch or bomb throw catch into their gameplay. And this can help like if your playing IC's and always want a bomb in your hand (to interupt Chaingrabs)and you can still attack.

So when you have no one good to play just work on techniques like that and getting faster.

Heh, sorry for the double-post, but this was completely sep. (plus you posted while I typed).

I have some experience against an IC main... a fair amount, actually -- he learned all the CG timing while playing me. :P So, most important thing to remember: Don't get grabbed.

Like, seriously man, just don't do it.

... You did it, didn't you?

... Ugh. Anyway, use TL's air play to your advantage, and *always* CP a level with platforms, or dynamic elements. I learned Rainbow Cruise pretty much exclusively for that matchup, and then when he started banning it (we played each other in tournaments waaaaaay too often... bad seeding), I picked up Frigate Orpheon. Both can lead to Nana deaths out of their control -- it's a jerk move, but hey... they're CG'ing, aren't they? :P

A lot of people don't struggle the CG... above about 5%, you really probably aren't getting out of it, but it puts the pressure on the player doing the CG. IC's CG is rhythm based, so if they think you might break free, they'll try to do it faster. A good one will succeed, a mediocre one will mess up.

I think that's enough about that matchup for *totally* not the matchup thread. :)

--UnderWing

[sasukebowser]

Ehh if I even know about them I will. o_O
You'll have to remind me. >_>"

Ehh I am going to get knocked out early apparently I live close to good people.
But no, I'm gonna try man.


On topic: I like how TL's grab is somewhat Spot dodge-proof.

Edit: is that even on-topic?

[UnderWing]

Topic? We don' need no steenkin' topic!

In all seriousness, though, probably not. :P


But it is nice how it works against spot-dodgers. :D

--UnderWing

[Santi]

I love how my threads always stay on topic :)

[UnderWing]

We're on topic! Umm... Umm... sh-chain, sh-nair, d-tilt-grab! Bam! Best used when you want to save your DSmash for later!

{Disclaimer: I have *no idea* whether that really works... this is admittedly a sorry attempt to save my a$$.

But it might work... in fact, I think I'm gonna go try that :P}

--UnderWing

[sasukebowser]

.....dtilt leads to things?
ABSURD!
Jk. Probably at low percents.

[QUIVO]

Dtilt can set up... edgeguards...

[Santi]

I wasn't mad.

Now if you saw this face
>:/

be afraid :)

[sasukebowser]

I think it can infinite against walls. Like Marths.
But thats honestly a complete guess.
....
Wait!
This is on topic!
Gimping strategies! =)
Now I don't feel as bad.


I can't imagine you getting mad Santi. You seem too nice.

[UnderWing]

Exactly! See, we were on topic! :P

(I too was joking around... dtilt can sometimes lead to stuff, if you're lucky. I've actually d-tilt'd to an up-b -- weird, but effective. I don't know how reliable it would be, though, and I think there may have been a tech involved.)