Safely Spiking with Dair offstage

[K 2]

First of all, I don't think this has been mentioned on the Toon Link boards. I've searched around and couldn't find anything on this so...

I think I've found a way to spike safely offstage. Everyone who uses TL knows the wonderful feeling after you gimped someone at 20% with your spike and watched them fall to their doom and the horrible feeling after you SD when you accidentally missed with your dair.

I was trying to figure out new ways to land a dair/edgeguard with toon link one day when I read an article about bomb spiking, or something to that sort. Basically you throw a bomb (or drop a bomb if your opponent is directly beneath you) and spike them after they get hit by the bomb. That worked pretty well, but it was still risky, since if you miscalculated by the slightest amount, you were dead.

Then, an idea struck me. Everyone knows how he/she can use a bomb to aid in his/her recovery (up b, bomb explodes, up b again). Well, I did some testing and figured out that if the bomb explodes while you are doing a dair, it stops your momentum and allow you to double jump (if you haven’t used your double jump yet) and up b back to safety.

How to perform: After you knocked your opponent off the stage, pull out a bomb. As your opponent starts his recovery, jump out after him. When you are above your opponent and in spiking range, press z, then dair really fast. If you dair too slowly, it won’t work. Also when pressing z, make sure you are NOT holding a direction on the control stick or c-stick, because you will throw the bomb and you do not want that to happen. The result it, you will drop the bomb, and catch it again while performing a dair. One of two things should happen now:
1. You spike your opponent and he dies. Use up b/double jump to recover back to the stage.
2. You miss your opponent (assume he airdodges or something to that sort). You plummet to your doom..but WAIT! Your bomb explodes and saves you, allowing you to return safely to the stage!

This allows you to spike when you are far away from the stage and to chase your opponents after you knocked them off. It might have potential for mindgames and maybe a taunt or something. For example, if your opponent sees you do a dair offstage, he will think that you SD and might start to taunt of something, BUT your bomb cancels your fall and allows you to return to the stage and attack the other guy. It could scare your opponent into thinking, “what other crazy tricks does this little green guy have?!?” Of course, there is one major hurdle to get over: timing the bomb. If you don’t time it enough, you will dair and mostly likely die. If you time it too much, it will explode prematurely or it will explode before you get in spiking position. Timing is CRUCIAL!

I don't have any videos because I'm not good with video editting and I'm not sure about how to upload videos and stuff. If anyone has a video of it, send it to me and I'll post it.

Also, I don't have a name for this tech. Maybe dair cancelling? idk.

[Ørion]

Ya, I've heard of that somewhere...it think. The problem is the timing is hard to get and there is still some risk if you are too far away from the edge.

[Corpsecreate]

it was first mentioned here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187656

The only way to get the timing for the bomb to work is to hit them off the edge with a bomb in hand.

[vanderzant]

This seems very situational, but in the right situation a good TL player could probably pull it off. The aim is to hit with the dair anyway and this technique is just insurance.

A setup could be:
pull out bomb > sh > z bomb drop > fair (knock opponent off stage and catch bomb) > setup/stall for the dair with other projectiles > dair > profit

Yeah it probably is too situational... >.<

[Alzi]

This sounds really hard to do. I usually just grab them when i'm right next to the edge then once grabbed throw them behind me then as they try to grab for the ledge quickly DAir them, thats the only one that works for me but it's not safe. :/

[K 2]

Usually, your opponent would return to the stage before your bomb timer went off. You would have to try to "stall" your opponent by shooting arrows, throwing boomerangs, and throwing bombs (take the bomb in your hand, throw it up, pull out another one, throw it at your opponent, and catch you original bomb, which should be close to exploding by now). Also, as vanderzant said, you could z drop the bomb and use an aerial to knock you opponent further back. As for the problem about edgeguarding when your opponent is really far away...
1. Toon link is very floaty and has an extremely good recovery, allowing him to venture far from the stage and still return.
2. If they are REALLY far away, just shoot arrows and such, and wait for them to get close. By the time they get near you, your bomb should be properly "cooked" allowing you to dair your opponent

Of course, this is a situational technique, but it can come in handy sometimes. It won't work if your opponent has low % , because they can return to the stage too quickly. I usually play TL with a bomb in my hand the whole time (mainly for recovery, should I get sent flying, but also I can quickly throw a bomb at my opponent and combo from there. I could easily integrate the dair cancelling into my game.) I read about some technique with TL that allows you to fsmash, etc. with a bomb in your hand. Perhaps that will be key to the success of this technique?

Obviously, this shouldn't be you only method of edgeguarding/spiking. Sometimes, a TL player has to go on instinct and prediction to spike on opponent, taking a huge risk. I think this has great potential if mastered.

Here's a possible scenario. You, toon link, are fighting someone with a bad/predictable recovery, say marth/ganondorf. You smash him off the stage and quickly pull out a bomb. You stall the marth, lets say, with arrows and etc., forcing him to waste his second jump. As marth approaches the spot where he will sweetspot the ledge (you all know what I'm talking about, Marth has to be in a very specific place to sqeetspot his up b), you dair. Marth has 2 options:
1. Airdodge, causing him to fall too far before he can do his up b, or causing him to get stuck under the stage.
2. Or get spiked.
As you can see either way he dies. Of course, this IS situational, but I believe it is worth the whole 30 minutes it takes to learn/master this technique.

[sasukebowser]

A bomb spike?

[K 2]

I think a bomb spike is throwing a bomb at your opponent, and spike them while they are suffering from the hitstun. This is cancelling your dair (should you miss) with your bomb (which explodes on you). It's situational, but I think it still has some uses.

[sasukebowser]

Ohh I see.
I used to do something like this, but it was more risky and stupid.
But it looked good. =)
Good find. (If it is a find, idk. I haven't seen it before I think.)

[K 2]

Even if this isn't THAT practical (compared to other TL techniques), it is very FLASHY. ^_^

[Silver Swordsman]

This strategy has been around since Brawl came out. The problem with it is that it'll only work if the bomb's been out for at least 10 seconds. The chance that you'll be able to time it so that it'll explode in the short time that you're still alive (assuming you miss) isn't very high, since recoveries normally don't take that long to begin with.

It's flashy but definently not safe. The safest way to use dair would be footstooling right before you use it, so that they can't dodge it or defend themselves. Even that isn't very reliable though, since they could end up footstooling you too.

You should only use it when you're sure you'll land it. It's a double-edged sword, it can either kill your opponent or it could kill you. I remember during Brawl's early days, someone said that when you use dair, one of you will not make it back. That couldn't be more true.

By the way, if you could stall someone enough so that you could do this, wouldn't it just be easier to edgeguard?

[sasukebowser]

I suppose that if your, you know, a "fast" player and you have a good flow in your game, You can do this when you already have a bomb out.
That is, you don't pull the bomb out TO do this, you just happen to have a bomb out at some point in the match while the opponents off-stage. then blah blah blah you do, drop it, catch it with dair blahhh.
A much, much safer way to do it is to do it while on the stage when the opponent grabs the ledge. The dairs hitbox is big enough to hit them, and you don't risk dying.
It works wonders against characters that don't cling to ledges with their recovery moves. Unfortunatly, thats a very few in the cast.

[DMG]

If they Smash DI or airdodge the bomb and you get caught up in the moment and go for a spike, bad things will happen lol.

[Hype]

it was first mentioned here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187656

The only way to get the timing for the bomb to work is to hit them off the edge with a bomb in hand.



I made a thread about this back in april and it wasn't new then either.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164662

[Silex]

Yes you're right .. i do this thing since I've read this thread ...

[rambull]

i need to try this. i usually spike when i am really close to my opponent.

[K 2]

As I mentioned before, this is situational. This is defiantly NOT the safesy way the spike by far. (Bomb spiking/footstool spiking probably is) Also, A bomb takes 5-6 seconds, not 10. There are better ways to edgeguard an opponent, but this is an option to change things up. I don't think you read this earlier in my post...

"Here's a possible scenario. You, toon link, are fighting someone with a bad/predictable recovery, say marth/ganondorf. You smash him off the stage and quickly pull out a bomb. You stall the marth, lets say, with arrows and etc., forcing him to waste his second jump. As marth approaches the spot where he will sweetspot the ledge (you all know what I'm talking about, Marth has to be in a very specific place to sqeetspot his up b), you dair. Marth has 2 options:
1. Airdodge, causing him to fall too far before he can do his up b, or causing him to get stuck under the stage.
2. Or get spiked.
As you can see either way he dies. Of course, this IS situational, but I believe it is worth the whole 30 minutes it takes to learn/master this technique."

[Silver Swordsman]

As I mentioned before, this is situational. This is defiantly NOT the safesy way the spike by far. (Bomb spiking/footstool spiking probably is) Also, A bomb takes 5-6 seconds, not 10. There are better ways to edgeguard an opponent, but this is an option to change things up. I don't think you read this earlier in my post...

"Here's a possible scenario. You, toon link, are fighting someone with a bad/predictable recovery, say marth/ganondorf. You smash him off the stage and quickly pull out a bomb. You stall the marth, lets say, with arrows and etc., forcing him to waste his second jump. As marth approaches the spot where he will sweetspot the ledge (you all know what I'm talking about, Marth has to be in a very specific place to sqeetspot his up b), you dair. Marth has 2 options:
1. Airdodge, causing him to fall too far before he can do his up b, or causing him to get stuck under the stage.
2. Or get spiked.
As you can see either way he dies. Of course, this IS situational, but I believe it is worth the whole 30 minutes it takes to learn/master this technique."

If he airdodged, you would also die. Just edge-hogging will prevent him from recovering.

I'm sure a bomb takes 10 seconds to explode. Just pull one out and stand there waiting for it to explode. It will take 10 seconds and not 5-6.

In any case, this thread is about the bomb-drop method. We both agree that it's very situational, so there's not much left to be said. Sorry that I missed that post, I did rush through the thread. As far as edgeguarding goes, that's something for another thread.

[VietGeek]

Pretty sure it's 5-6 when I tested it. Running or not. All explosive follow that rule of 6 seconds in Brawl.

[K 2]

If Marth airdodged, he would die, BUT the bomb would save you before its too late. So marth fails to recover and you, toon link and his beastly recovery, makes it back on the stage. I usually resort to aerials for edgeguarding and speedhugging to grab on to the ledge, which is safe and reliable. This is just something unexpected. I'm sure you've heard tons of smash pros say being unpredictable and doing something unexpected often throws your opponents off. Usually, when you encounter a combo/technique/etc. for the first time, you don't know how to react to it. Since this technique is rarely used, its just something to throw in the mix and scare your opponent.

I tested the bomb thing and its 5 or 6 seconds as VietGeek said. I was able to count to 6 everytime before the bomb exploded.

[Jer]

I've pulled this off maybe once? But another good way is to shoot the bomb downwards, it hits the opponent up towards you and pretty much guarantees a spike

[K 2]

I know. That's bomb spiking. I was just offering a different way to spike and some possible uses. i.e. forcing your opponent to airdodge so they essentially kill themselves.