TL Mains' Experience & Mindset

[ImpactAR]

So what do we have on TL so far? Can rack up damage, but can't kill effectively, right?

EXPERIENCE

I tend to find an effective pattern and abuse it until my friends abuse it. When they do, I find another pattern repeat. Find all of my main's options and the weakness of it. When I feel like I'm at the limit of the options, I hopefully find that one balance each other out. Meaning each option does not share the same weakness. Then try to blend them together in time. I think I am reaching the end of my explorations...

At first, I thought TL would a good combo character with spam. Playing some more, I then thought he was a good combo character with spam that can't KO well. Then I thought he was a poking, combo character with spam. THEN I decided he was a poking, spammer who can seize combo opportunities. For NOW I've come to the conclusion that he's a spammer, who spaces with pokes, and uses combo ability and KO moves to punish only.

MINDSET

Recently, when I come in the match up (though I am still working on getting my mind set on this), my ideal priority is to rack up damage with spam, poke & counter, and combo/punish/KO IFF I can when the opportunity is right. If no opportunities arise for KOs, then I'll play the time game if I have to.

My plan is to run, spam, and poke. Aggravating the opponent to come to me, opening themselves up for moments to combo, counter, or punish. I try to restrain from going into close-quarter offensive even if they are at KO range (it's hard I know).

Honestly, I'm still working on blending my modes of play. Most of the patterns I deemed reliable and effective tend to be spam and counter-based. The patterns tend to be completely different from each other so it's hard for me to fade into a different mode of play. However, I think this is good in a way. But, this is the conclusion that I came up with when playing with TL.

So, when you guys come into a match up, what are your plans?

[QUIVO]

My strategy is to predict and punish. I look for any openings to attack.
This includes when they shield, when they attack, airdodge, how they recover etc.
Of course experience comes into play here, many players react the same under certain situations.
Any pattern I see I will abuse with combos, hit and runs, or projectiles.
I also try not to get too predictable, if I notice my opponent predicting things.. I'll try to mix it up.

Also the stock count and percentages effect my strategy. Usually when I'm at higher percents, i'll play more defensive, as a new stock would be more aggressive.

I pretty much try to take control of the flow, manipulate my opponents.

[sasukebowser]

I just try to mindgame the whole match.
Get them to do things, follow their patterns, trick them into thinking I'm gonna do stuff, knowing which way they're going to roll.
And then TRY to combo.

Playing against me is a mind****. =)

[Thechene]

hmmmmmm

i see the entire game like quantum physic's idea of alternate dimensions with alternate outcomes.

Or like the pathway of neuron activity.

Each neuron being connected to the next neuron in it's path. Each neuron has a certain number of synapses it could cross that would lead to another neuron with its own new set of synapses.



In any given situation there are MANY options. If you think in an unbiased way...in any situation, every single button input or combination of input could be pressed.

Some result in punishment. Some result in a neutral outcome that effects very little directly. And some may punish the opponent.


When we learn the game, we try moves somewhat randomly, until we find one that gives us good results, like you were talking about. Once we learn it we build off of it. It is our path of learning. The structure of your fighting style is built off of it.

People often put more emphasis on the NEXT option in their style. Rather than OTHER options to substitute in their already existing style.

I'm sure a balanced approach is important. And it sound like so far you completely know what I'm talking about.

But what happens with all people, is diversity must be forced upon our habits. There must be a catalyst that changes our repetitive behavior. At some point, that catalyst becomes YOU. I believe that is a form of enlightenment. When you teach yourself rather than being just an animal which is conditioned.


Now for my real point:

Brawl is more about evaluating your opponent than any smash brothers in the series thus far. It is more about remembering your enemy's situational choices. And you do find they are in fact repetitive.

So instead of evaluating moves based on the physics of the game: priority/attack speed/knockback/damage/duration/effect...etc

we should really note that the most important quality in all of your moves is that they are hopefully different.

Because in a game of ever-developing strategies, where people learn their opponents, MORE bad options are just simply better than few GOOD options.

So the better the fighters ability to truly diversify, and learn the vast possibilities of himself and his opponent, the better his chance of winning.


Ever notice beginners luck in smash brothers? Somebody untrained and new being difficult to fight for the simple fact that they are unpredictable and show no obvious patterns?

If you truly can widen your mind around all the possibilities, and have all that information calculating in your brain simultaneously, you'd be a very good player.

It's almost like memory width...if that makes any sense at all. lol

Intentions are so easy to read. People who always want to hurt limit their possibilities in philosophy. People predict intentions.

What you must do is constantly shift your intentions. Don't always try to capitalize.
Try to diversify.



It's such a fascinating game. It exposes the way we perceive and learn. People become discouraged by certain moves, or have perceptions of it that can be filtered through your play style.

They are learning you from fighting you. Which means what you do influences what they learn.
So that means you have control over what they learn. You can choose what to condition them to believe. And when you can play on that level, you have what people think is amazing prediction, but what you've really done, is crafted their attack patterns.

[Thechene]

quivo and sasukebowser basically say the same thing i do.

but i think once you isolate the quality that is directly connected to your "mind game control"

then you can openly learn it, rather than in a round-about way.

The more we analyze the deeper it goes.

[ToonLuigi]

Well, if I'm playing stock I usually screw up, then I get a new mindset. With that, a new strategy, and that's when the fun begins...Punishing,punishing, punishing. Mainly, I predict every movement from the stocks prior to that, and I can get 2 stocks in before I go down.

[Lobos]

My strategy is to predict and punish. I look for any openings to attack.
This includes when they shield, when they attack, airdodge, how they recover etc.
Of course experience comes into play here, many players react the same under certain situations.
Any pattern I see I will abuse with combos, hit and runs, or projectiles.
I also try not to get too predictable, if I notice my opponent predicting things.. I'll try to mix it up.

Also the stock count and percentages effect my strategy. Usually when I'm at higher percents, i'll play more defensive, as a new stock would be more aggressive.

I pretty much try to take control of the flow, manipulate my opponents.

This.

Quivo were/are you a melee vet too? I wouldn't call myself a vet since I started the tourney scene back in late 06.

[QUIVO]

I got into it around 06 too, so I'm somewhat of a vet in the sense that I made it over to Brawl.

I went to a few big tournies like Pound 3 and FC Diamond. I've played a good deal of melee pros and did well against some of them. I was never ZOMG amazing though. The only problem is that once Brawl came out, that was when I suddenly started playing smarter : (

I was just a technical Fox/Falco that got the gist of mindgames.

I still play melee somewhat, I've been to one tourny since Brawl came out (which was like last month) and I did surprisngly well considering the fact that I hadn't played in a long *** time. Dunno if you know swiftbass, but he's EC and I actually managed to take a game off of him with like, a little bit of practice the night before. Falco is more fun now, he's kinda like TL in a weird way. His lasers can help him control the match like TL's projectiles, and he can combo well. YLink is still fun too.

[Barge]

I Like to be aggressive with Toon Link.
I only play defensively if I'm down a stock.

[vanderzant]

I find that against good players (not scrubs obviously) as soon as I start playing aggressive with Toon Link, I get punished majorly and lose alot of stocks/matches. I'm the kind of player that will either 3 stock or get 3 stocked by a player of similar skill to mine, depending on what kind of mindset I'm in.

For example, a few days ago I was playing online against some guy's Fox who used to walk all over my Toon, but in the match we played I got him off the stage and edgehogged him twice while taking under 40% (being the good guy he is he "no contest'd" >.>). On the other hand, last night (online) I got beaten by a spammy Ganon who's moves consisted only of Fsmash, Dsmash, Roll, Dodge and Side B (and the ganon foot for a spike o.o).

So yeah, depending on my mindset either every match I play is a combo video, or I get beaten by online spammers...

[QUIVO]

I love being aggressive too, but that doesn't always work.. especially in Brawl.

I've kinda got different things going on in a match. At one point I'm super aggressive, and then next second I'll be campy. It throws off some people's game and it forces them to relearn your playstyle and keep them guessing, making them somewhat hesitant. It depends on the player though, some people just won't care and just do what they're doing.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I like to mix it up a bit, and act almost impulsively without really thinking. It's not gonna break me into the Top 10 of Smash players, but I enjoy it and it has its advantages.

If a ground approach isn't working, I'll switch to the Nairs, the Fairs and the Zair combos, and vice versa leading in with Bairs. If playing aggressive won't get me anywhere, I'll play a campy game and force them to attack me. I'm not ashamed to rely on TL's projectiles - he's one of the best in the game, even if still a long way off ROB and Pit.

I look at the stats after each battle it's really freaky how perfectly balanced my ground attacks : air attacks are.

[ImpactAR]

Interesting. I had the same mindset as most of you here, early on. But it seems like I'm the only TL main here concluding on putting more emphasis on playing a moving/spammer.

[QUIVO]

Can you emphasize on that Impact? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by playing a moving spammer. Do you mean constantly move/run away while spamming? If so, that's how my campy play is. My campy style isn't really even camp since I don't stay in one spot.

[Santi]

...you were like a cracked out toon link spider monkey with a bomb pouch...

That's how I try to play =)

[ImpactAR]

My apologies on the delay on the response. I went to a tournament. Got 3rd out of 16. Small victory. Yes! Can't brag to much the competition there isn't that tough. No MKs or Snake mains.

Anyways, the more I play TL the more I feel like it's not effective to get in close to the opponent unless you have to. TL has flexible projectiles and speed after all. You have the option of not having to be close and have the tools to do damage. Besides, coming in close just gives the opponent the opportunity punish you.

The way I "try" to stick to spamming is to throw the bomb where at least the explosion will hit the opponent. If throwing the bomb straight forward, when the opponent shield, make the use of the bounce of the bomb. I would have the option to throw an arrow or boomerang in, dodge catch and Zair, poke them with a move, or pull out another bomb and repeat. I can even take it into the air and throw bombs straight down. It has a weird bounce when hurled down. It has very low bounce and hovers right on top of the opponent. Makes no sense to me, but it's surprisingly effective. Just force the opponent to come to me, opening themselves up, and knock them back away.

I'm not trying to downplay trying to go for combos, but from my experience I will most likely get punish if I'm playing against someone good and try to go for Bair combos. Good players now just know how to get out of combos. Personally, Bair combos for me have become a random thing. In my mind, I'll Bair more for a defensive retreat, surprise juggle, or the ideal move to use against opponents standing on the platform.

Overall, this "style" doesn't have any real weakness. It's just characters with a naturally good offensive game gives some difficulty because Nintendo decided that unintentionally grabs using aerial attacks is a good idea. He'll just incidentally grab the bombs hurled at him simply by just Fairing. Lame.... Other than that, it draws the game out and if you're losing you don't have a real advantage.