Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #14: Mr. GameWatch

[VietGeek]

Mr. Game & Watch
http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/75586-/hidden08_080310k-l-550x.jpg
Ratio: 60:40 Mr. Game & Watch

Synopsis:
Coming Soon?!

GO!

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, my two cents on the matchup.

Matchup 6/4 in G&W's favor.

TL's advantages on G&W are unbucketable spam, and slightly more speed on his disjointed range.

That's not enough to beat G&W though.

G&W is simply better at everything else. He's better at racking on damage, KO moves, approaching, shield pressure, recovery, and edgeguarding.

TL's projectiles can all be swatted away by G&W's attacks keep in mind. TL doesn't really have a clear answer to the B-air besides avoiding getting shield poked and going for a grab. G&W also has a really easy time edgeguarding TL. D-air is rape on TL's recovery. It is pretty much a guaranteed hit if TL is going for the ledge. D-air is probably more undiminished in this matchup than in others since G&W does not want to challenge TL's U-air or U-smash with it most of the time btw.

[Neb]

Does TL's zair out-range bair?

[A2ZOMG]

I think it does, but I don't think it matters that much. You can shield that and go for a grab, or simply do FF B-air from above.

[K 2]

TL's zair does what, 4%? 30 of those and G&W will be at killing %

As A2ZOMG said, TL's projectiles can easily be negated with G&W's tilts and aerials. G&W's disjointed hitbox makes denotating bombs safe.

G&W's bair outranges all of TL's physical (non projectile) attacks. TL doesn't have a effective way to deal with the turtle. If he tries to shield the turtle and go for the shield grab, G&W can DI away from TL while he bairs. If TL misses the grab for whatever reason, thats a minimum of 20% of TL.

G&W can easily intercept TL's recovery with fair. TL's up b doesn't have SAF or Invincibility frames to protect while he recovers.

[VietGeek]

A perfectly spaced Zair from TL is probably the same or slightly longer in range to the turtle.

Most Zairs will be autocanceled, meaning Toon Link can do anything immediately afterward.

That's really all I'll add for now. Continue on.

[Lv.99]

Okay, I haven't played this guy in months Viet. So, my only advice is to go to the G&W boards and introduce this topic. Best I got...

[VietGeek]

Okay, I haven't played this guy in months Viet. So, my only advice is to go to the G&W boards and introduce this topic. Best I got...

K, I did this like a few hours ago.

Try again Star Fox.

[Lv.99]

Okay, that's it. I'm pulling out all johns for this one.

*WARNING*
*NOOB MATCH -UP THREAD APPROACHING*
Let's begin:

Approaching: G&W has relatively simple approach options: aerials. His tilts are not the best for approaching, his dash attack is just odd and easy to counter, and I doubt he would use a b-move except for some mindgames. WEll, I would assume that the primary approach move would be nair. As everyone know, this hitbox is huge, can score multiple hits, easily staggers, stays out for a while, and has decent priority. If the G&W chooses b-air, avoid it. The turtle has really good priority and will pretty much always stagger you. And, as an added bonus, if G&W lands while performing this, another hitbox will appear. This one will send you upwards, setting you up for an n-air. If they choose f-air (which I doubt) you should be safe. Its priority is okay, but it is laggy and will stay out after he hits the ground.

In the Fray:If both players are on the ground, G&W has a few options. The f-tilt is powerful and long range but stays out for a while. Just go around and smack him with an f-air. The u-tilt is a ctually a good move but its knockback is too high to juggle, so you're safe. But if he uses u-tilt, God save your soul. it is fast( neigh lagless), has awesome priority, and has the weirdist hitbox ever. My suggestion to this is to either have bomb ready, sheild, and throw or sheild and z-air before he repeats.
Okay, his smashes are evil. his u-air is obvious, but it will KO you everytime. It always has an upwards trajectory and will hit on the sides. His f-air is one of the fastest smashes and is a semi-spike. I have no counter for this, just avoid it. His d-smash is interesting, it has two hitboxes. The first which is the handle of the hammers sends you up but the tips of the hammers create a semi-spike (Check up on this. I could have it reversed).

Offstage: G&W has excellent recovery. It may be predictable but it has high priority and is fast. It's hard to gimp becuase he does have invincibility on the way up (check this too). His aerials also create a mess. If you are trying to gimp him with f-air and such, he will just n-air, cause you to fall, up-b his way to the edge, and then proceed to edgehog you.

Stages:As far as I know, the best stage for G&W is battlefield because his aerials go through the platforms perfectly.

Satisfied Lelouch??

[sasukebowser]

Idk much, but this is all I got:

The basic G@W pattern is this: Jump, aerial, just aerial (repeat with a few grabs tossed in until high percents), Smash attacks.The thing about G@W is you have to prefect everything he does, which isn't that hard really. Its the basic concept of smash: Jump, use an airial move towards you, and follow up.

Aerials: The easiest thing to predict and punish is his Dair. When hes above you and you think hes going to do Dair, DON'T JUST STAND THERE AND SHIELD! Instead, jump to the left or right, air dodge, and Zair. This is the safest way to punish as G@W can't really do anything else until the move is done. You can try like, shield rolling to the left and right then Fsmash or something, but thats too risky IMO. His Uair doesn't do much but just mess with you. He can hit you with it, but thats just a little weak hit. 99% or the time it will be to mess with you and keep you in the air. This should be TOO much of a problem as long as your not in your aerial falling animation. The "blowing you upwards" part of it doesn't do any damage, so just to to get back to the level at your own speed. DON'T USE DAIR TO GET BACK DOWN TO THE LEVEL. Thats what he wants you to do (so he can punish you). His Nair is pretty much like his Bair but facing you. Its much less deadly though. Just try to see it coming, he'll take out a fish tank. His Fair has a lot of knock back at first, but very little afterwords. He can use this as a kill move so be prepared. How you can see his Fair coming: G&W jump back just a tiny bit, and Fairs while moving towards you. That what they usually do. I suggest you SH, air dodge, and Zair. When hes at high percents, *try* to run under him and Usmash. His Bair is broken. That just the end of it. If hes facing away from you, get the hell out of there. If G@W RAR's, shield and roll away as soon as the last hit of the turtle is over. He can follow up with pretty much anything after the moves over. LERN 2 DI. You might be lucky and be able to escape this horrid move. Just try to avoid getting hit by it as much as you can.

Tilts: His tilts come out pretty fast. Utilt and Dtilt are usually used in succession a few times. Utilt for combos, Dtilt just so you get hit by it lolz. DI up when you get it by a Utilt. If you think hes gonna do it again, Dair immediately. His Dtilt is just some form of spacing tool/ wanna-be edgegaurd. G@W's usually just keep using it if your shielding until you get hit because its so fast. Just get out of the way. His Ftilt has great knock back, but a decent amount of start up lag. Think Toon Links Fair with a liiittle less knock back. He can use this to kill if he saves it as a kill move. DI up when he hits you with it.

LOLjab: His jab attack is some annoying consecutive hit move. If you an idiot, your going to wait until it hits you far enough away to get out of it. If your smart, your going to Smash DI away and save yourself like 20%.

Specials: His B is a decent projectile I suppose. Its used mostly for edge guarding and sometimes to stop you from edge guarding him, sorta like a shield. It really shouldn't be too much of a problem. Just to to avoid it while recovering, and punish him from beneath when hes recovering. As in, use Uair. The food items can't hit you, and the only way he can hit you under him is Dair. Hes probably not going to do that because its probably going to be a suicidal tactic in that scenario. He wouldn't be able to recover with all that negative vertical distance. So if a G@W is recovering, run off the edge, mid-air jump, Uair (you can also try Fair like that as a killing move, but its a tad risky if you don't do it right). G@W's down-B is useless in this fight ^_^, so you can go ahead and spam away. His Up-B is a great recovery move, both horizontally and vertically. I THINK you can grab him out of it, just like Snake's cypher, and he can't use it again. Now thats uberly risky because the timing is like impossible, so your probably not going to try to go for it (but I am >_>). His side-B is pretty much useless unless he gets a 9. 9= 1-hit KO <_<.... Just avoid it because it has start-up lag. Not much else to say...

Smashes: As for his smashes, they're ridicules. Ridiculously ridiculous. They kill like twice as early as Toon Link's smashes. The ONLY think I can say about his smashes, is that when your at 70% and up, be wary of them. They have SOME start up lag, and thats your only change. DODGE IT. All his smashes kill at very low percents, so expect any of them.

Throws: His throws aren't much (except for Dthrow). They pretty weak and position you in the air. Don't worry much about them. His Dthrow however, has a lot of follow ups. He can try to Dsmash you (thats what they usually do). Just move the control stick to the left or right (and maybe try to tech) to avoid getting hit by it. G@W can also tech chase you after Dthrow. Just.... don't be predictable? lolz.


Done. >_>;

[VietGeek]

Satisfied Lelouch??

For now. But I'd assume most GW players would go for turtles over Nair as Nair isn't safe against a shield unless you retreat, and its horizontal range is rather small.

LOLquaza

Space please, my eyes are dying.

Although I could always borrow yours Sasuke...

[sasukebowser]

Space please, my eyes are dying.
Done
Although I could always borrow yours Sasuke...
.......

http://lustrousrealm.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/n393-7.jpg

[Lv.99]

VietGeek: For now.

.... dang.

For one who always believes that our public education system is barely worth working at, you put your best foot forward in video games. Your level of dedication never diminishes, even if your interest does.

That, or my guide sucked like hell. Which one more?

Edit------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait, n-air has a small horizontal hibox? I thought that move was 2X the size of G&W. Hmm, I'll have to remember that.

[Rutger]

Why could you not do that before Sasuke? >_>

[VietGeek]

Okay, before this dissolves to anything else, I'm hoping we're not only using experience to see through this match-up. There are a lot of bad GnWs, and some good ones. I've never fought a very good one, so my experience won't add much to this discussion.

We should be discussing who is controlling the pace of this match, what the two can do against each other, the two character's weaknesses, and how the other character exploits that, etc.

Let's make this a polished match-up discussion. We need to catch up to the other character boards, but we need to do it in style.

Also Sasuke, you can shield his Dair and jump cancel Usmash. =P

[Lv.99]

Well then I'm out. I don't know the general playstyle of G&W except for aerial spam.

Say VietGeek, I have a technical question. Toonlink has the fastest, most spammable, and chainable projectiles. With that being the case, why does toonlink not dominate the match against everybody (ignoring mario, fox, wolf, and falco)? Airdodging is good, but arrow canceling creates a weird timeline for us to manuvere in. Bombs stagger and leave us open for various attacks, and the boomerange is just versatile. So, why doesn't toonlink control?

[burntsocks]

G&W can also keep TL in the air well, cuz his uair also raises bombs, which is annoying. Id say its 5.5-4.5, you can lure out aerials and punish with projectiles, and SHDA works well, also, fair is amazing in this matchup.

[VietGeek]

Well then I'm out. I don't know the general playstyle of G&W except for aerial spam.

Say VietGeek, I have a technical question. Toonlink has the fastest, most spammable, and chainable projectiles. With that being the case, why does toonlink not dominate the match against everybody (ignoring mario, fox, wolf, and falco)? Airdodging is good, but arrow canceling creates a weird timeline for us to manuvere in. Bombs stagger and leave us open for various attacks, and the boomerange is just versatile. So, why doesn't toonlink control?

Toon Link's projectiles can be chained, but are generally slow, and take a noticeable time to conjure. Also most of his projectiles walls require some time to set up, whereas Falco can just SHDA all day in place at a high rate.

He lacks a safe approach, and has very small range in comparison to most of the cast. He can create openings via projectiles, as well as poke with Zair, but he lacks an amazing approach game which hinders him versus top tiers. His lack of range makes him extremely susceptible to shield tactics, and he has no gimmicks to even it out.

Once he's cornered, he lacks options to get out (Marth's Up+B/GnW's Up+B/Spacies' Side-B), and is limited in close combat (generally limited to Nair and jab combo).

He lacks the tools to effectively do anything. He isn't too good at approaching, there are characters that camp better, and kill better, and gimp better.

He has nothing to call his own. He is the jack of all trades, master of none.

And that's why will stay Lower High-Middle Tier at best...in my opinion.

[Neb]

Its as clear as a bell that most of you have no experience in this match-up,
or atleast not with a good G&W. I really don't feel like correcting all the post, :/.

[Lv.99]

Interesting...

Well, I'm not going to engage in video/philsophical discussion as to why people choose (and stay) with their characters, but I'm am satisfied.

Oh yeah, I want to post a counterargument.

First of all, his projectiles do have their up sides which you didn't mention. The boomerang has the most controllable trajectory of any projectile (ignoring snake's nikita). The arrows are not as fast as the spacies' lasers, but they come out as fast, so they don't leave you exposed. Also, the bombs may be slow, but they are item like. That gives you the ability to have a reserve attack at the ready, pressuring your opponent.

His approaches are a little weak because a well placed f-air will knock out his arrows. However, I deem your general method of playstyle as defensive. The last time I played you with Ganondorf (oh, two months ago), all you did was camp. Now, ignoring the fact that it was informal and I suck at the bearded-one, that style would be omni-applicable.

As for being cornered, you're basically right there. The only escape I can think of is a grounded up-b which really doesn't get you anywhere.

Hmm, all in all, I think you're right. he will remain middle-tier.

Dang, I hate when I disprove myself. All well, I at least threw the other argument into light.

[Lv.99]

Its as clear as a bell that most of you have no experience in this match-up,
or atleast not with a good G&W. I really don't feel like correcting all the post, :/.

From personal experience, I am not, nor have ever fought a good G&W. But, I main R.O.B. so, it doesn't really affect me.

And nice G&W reference by the way.

[Santi]

Where is Hylian!?!?
O_o

Zair will beat out GW's bair if it is spaced right where the chain is completely outstretched, and you hit the turtle when it is first coming out.

[Neb]

Where is Hylian!?!?
O_o

Zair will beat out GW's bair if it is spaced right where the chain is completely outstretched, and you hit the turtle when it is first coming out.

Yeah, thought so. I asked that on the first page.
If my memory serves me right, I think Hylian said it was 50:50.

And nice G&W reference by the way.

Heheh, thanks.

[Darxmarth23]

i would just play defensively and gimp him off stage.

but thats just me. i'll leave it to the pros.

[sasukebowser]

So I pretty much just did defensive stuff huh? >_>
Do I need to add offensive stuff? <_<
Tell me what to put dammit. Dx >_>
Also Sasuke, you can shield his Dair and jump cancel Usmash. =P
<_<
If you say so.

[Neb]

i would just play defensively and gimp him off stage.

but thats just me. i'll leave it to the pros.

lol...gimp G&W.

[NeoCrono]

How does G&W fair against bombs and up-tilts?

[QUIVO]

I don't know, i thought bombs could counter his approaches... the only problem is that he sometimes comes in weird angles where you can't throw the bomb directly at him..

For example, full jumped bairs or something of that sort. So i'd just try predicting where he's going.

I've found out that getting behind G&W is usually bad lol. With most characters i'll mix up and run behind them for bair combos, but that's just asking for the turtle.

But the other projectiles aren't as good since they can be out prioritized with some of his aerials, powershielded, or airdodged. (every character can do most of these things, the main thing is his aerials)

Try to stay in front of him when you zair, iirc his fair isnt as fast, nair/fitlt/ditlt (i think?) doesn't have the range to compete.

TL's uair outprioritizes G&W's dair if timed correctly. Some G&W's will just dair into it, only to die. If you don't do that, just run away and JC throw a bomb where he lands

When i played Needles of Juntah (NoJ), he got most of his kills with fair off the ledge iirc. He'd just unexpectedly run off and hit me with it, so don't always recover low ,or even with tether.

Most of the time GAW players will dthrow. Tech it shield and wait, or roll somewhere that they won't expectedly go. They can follow up with bairs, fair, usmash, dair, fsmash, grabs, dtilt, etc.

Always be wary of when you're in killing percent. I think TL can die as early as like 90% from GAW's smashes. NoJ would just randomly throw them out from what I remember, hoping for me to run into them (most other GAW players will do this too). Also his fsmash has like, a hit box that stays out forever. The last part of it is weaker, but can still cause some good damage.

i haven't encoutered this, but GAW can ledge camp pretty easily with nairs. Apparently m2k says it's hard to get around and super lame. The safest option would to probably just space a bomb. I wouldn't recommend running off and bair'ing.

Fortunately, all of TL's smashes can kill way earlier due to how light GAW is. I don't really know what stage to pick against GAW, but I personally like FD a lot as well as battlefield in general. Both stages has its flaws int his matchup though

I dont know how to effectively edgeguard GAW. It's a toughy

um everything else i thinks been said?

[NeoCrono]

Thanks, I got behind one of my friends that used G&W and pivot grabbed him to a back throw to fair, it worked once but after that..... it was turtle time lol.
Bombs seem to work for approaching him, and then rang works well for me. When I get behind G&W I space the zair and dash up-smash(forgot what its called)

[TLMSheikant]

Sugar Sheik: dash upsmash is hyphen smash.
This matchup IMO is pretty even. G&W has kill moves and good aerials. TL has projectiles that can't be bucketed and pretty good aerials too.

P.S. Where's hylian when u need him?

[Jman115]

From what I can tell in my experience against GnW's it is either neutral or slight advantage to TL.

His aerial approaches aren't hard to deal with. Obviously you have nothing to really physically counter him so I do a couple of different things. I jump above it and if the jump is timed just right, you can either footstool or dair. Or I avoid it. If it is a high enough aerial and you have a bomb dodge or run underneath them and do a JC bomb throw or if you are running underneath them throw the bomb upwards.

I also tend to avoid the arial and send projectiles their way as they land. If timed right it will hit them, or send them into their shield which gives me an opportunity to approach.

Get GnW in the air and he is pretty easy to juggle or at least rack some damage upon. If he decides to dair, it is easily punished. If he is just falling, follow his DI and Uair, throw a bomb and Uair. I don't usually articulate what I do in game. I don't really think about it much, I hope this is good enough depiction.

[Hylian]

50-50.

I will write more if enough people bug me about it.

[TLMSheikant]

He has nothing to call his own. He is the jack of all trades, master of none.

.

Wrong he does have something to call his own. Mobility while camping unlike other characters.

[sasukebowser]

50-50.

I will write more if enough people bug me about it.

please? =)

[VietGeek]

50-50.

I will write more if enough people bug me about it.

Hai Hylian I herd ur leik perty gud at smash

Wrong he does have something to call his own. Mobility while camping unlike other characters.

So does Snake and Falco and Link. TL simply has more but his projectiles are noticeably weaker...

D-don't argue against me! ;_;

[TLMSheikant]

He still has more mobility. ;D Nah falco beats him in this too. >__>

[Santi]

He has nothing to call his own. He is the jack of all trades, master of none.

We're Toon
=)

[VietGeek]

We're Toon
=)


...

Well played sir.

[A2ZOMG]

If Hylian says a matchup is 50/50, usually it's in favor of G&W if you ask me.

I mean hell, he says G&W vs DDD is even lololololol. But back on topic:

The spam really doesn't stop G&W from approaching that much, which he's good at. I mean up close, if you try to fire an arrow or boomerang, and he tries to rush in with a B-air, he'll win. And once TL is off stage, he gets edgeguarded.

Also G&W's juggling > TLs.

Also, TL sucks a lot at setting up KO moves in general, and he has no real way to edgeguard G&W.

[Santi]

ahmmmmmmm
I'm tellinggggggggggg
=)