Analyzing projectile properties and in game stategies with them

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This momentum reversal for boomerang is AWESOME for mindgames.

While before most people would easily dodge my boomerangs, by shifting directions before tossing the boomerang, they end up coming in as an aggressor, so they cannot shield as quickly. By reversing the momentum back and then forward again, you can arrow cancel while kind of sliding forward and go in for another hit. If the arrow lands, you pretty much got yourself another combo. That sounds like a really good way of using it! Thanks for letting me know.
And your right, this is an awesome mind game. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to use it. Thanks again DC.OMG I tried out the boomerang thing and it is cool. I know! What I like to do is full hop jump back, hit Backwards B, Forwards then aim the boomerang diagonally down at them, then follow up with a Fair in the face or a Nair. You'd be suprised, they never see it coming. The whole idea of reversing your momentum without turning around defies everything previously known about the game.

Just for the record we need something to call it. We can't call it the momentum reversal boomerang because that sounds to much like a B-reversal. Also it can be done with an arrow as well so calling it the boomerang thing won't work either. Any ideas/sugestions?

[TLMarth]

Call it 'Special momentum shift'

[ImpactAR]

Well it's always good that players are looking into ways to develop TL's metagame. I don't want to sound negative, just giving you the general opinion on B-sticking. For TL the use for it is pretty limited. Pikachu seems to be the one that really has a use for this with his B-stick Thunder.

I think sasukebowser was looking into this in an old thread and even learned how to do this on command with the regular control scheme. Maybe you guys can try to contact him and see what his findings on this is.

[oOJaseOo]

I have this happen to me now and again and if you do either over the edge it can come out as very nice gimp just kinda shift over the edge while the arrow or rangs above you, you have your second jump and can nair/zair w/e while the arrow or rang has stoped/stunned em

Iv also had my arrow come out from behind me example toons faceing one way with his bow out but the arrows behind him going the other way this happens when i arrow cancel it looks rlly wierd =S

[TLMSheikant]

Jase- thats just reverse arrow cancel I do it sometimes on command its really easy. Just press the other direction when arrow cancelling.

[RK Joker]

I believe a fully charged arrow kills at like 360%... I tested this earlier, but don't remember the exact number. This was tested on Ganondorf from the center of Pokemon Stadium 2.... That's not even DI'd... so not that it's much... but if someone could follow up test....

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Call it 'Special momentum shift'
Thats not bad! I'll go back and edit the post with that as it's name. I might even quote the post later on if I'm bothered, that way you don't have to look back.
Well it's always good that players are looking into ways to develop TL's metagame. I don't want to sound negative, just giving you the general opinion on B-sticking. For TL the use for it is pretty limited. Pikachu seems to be the one that really has a use for this with his B-stick Thunder.

I think sasukebowser was looking into this in an old thread and even learned how to do this on command with the regular control scheme. Maybe you guys can try to contact him and see what his findings on this is. Normal B-sticking is pretty useless, but this isn't normal. In any case I'm going to look into cool ways to use this already cool move (follow ups, combo's, and so on). I'll PM Sasuke and find out what he knows, where the thread is and so on. What do you mean by regular control scheme? Do you mean B-sticking? Or do you mean without using the B-stick, because I didn't use it. What do you mean by regular?

[toondiddy]

i was gone for most of today and all of yesterday, but im back now:)

There has been alot of talk about the specail momentum shift and thats good. I think this technique will prove to be one of the grater mindgames/ projectile set ups.

Jase and darktempilo your questions have been answered already. i have nothing else to add to that except the technique Jase was describing is called battlechrist's arrow trick.

i think that the b-stick is really helpful for toonlink, we just havent found out why. Smashwiki says toonlink is one of the characters whp greatly benfit from it. Also its not like we lose anything when switching to the b-stick (what i mean is if diddy does this he loses the ability to glide toss)

thanks to the people that was holding me down and answering questions

[DCStyle]

In addition to SMS arrow cancel, you can probably z cancel and do a follow up as well.

Also...

I believe a fully charged arrow kills at like 360%... I tested this earlier, but don't remember the exact number. This was tested on Ganondorf from the center of Pokemon Stadium 2.... That's not even DI'd... so not that it's much... but if someone could follow up test....


Not to rain on your parade, but this research is pretty pointless.

[RK Joker]

Don't worry, I know. ^_^ I did say "not that it's much". You're not raining on my parade, but since this is a projectile properties topic, I figured, I'd put it.

[TLMarth]

TD, add stoof to OP?

[toondiddy]

kk TlM done.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In addition to SMS arrow cancel, you can probably z cancel and do a follow up as well.
SMS? That is awesome. I didn't even think about that. I like your style DC. I'll check out that Zair cancel, sounds nice.

Also, It's kinda weird, I haven't been able to find a way to tilt throw the boomerang during the SMS. The reason being, if you tilt, it shoots an arrow. I don't know for sure, maybe there is a way and I just haven't found it yet. If someone does find a way please let me know because it means we can do an awesome combo.

[toondiddy]

if anyone does this before i test it tomorrow, i want to know can you sms with a bomb in hand.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

if anyone does this before i test it tomorrow, i want to know can you sms with a bomb in hand. Yes you can. I just checked.
I also checked DC's question, yes you can Zair after SMS. So we can bomb pull, SMS, quickdraw, bomb throw. Basicaly anything!

[toondiddy]

thanks fox
does anyone have any more new nfo on this?

http://i40.tinypic.com/24v2ts3.jpg

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220864

Good stuff.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220864

Good stuff. Toon Link can do this. I've actually known about this for a while but I never knew it could be usefull. We should look into possible ways of using this. Thanks Sasuke.thanks fox
does anyone have any more new nfo on this?
No worries. Any idea how we might tilt throw a SMS yet? I'm still working on it, but I think you either have to hit Backwards B, slight tilt forward or stronger tilt Backwards B, Forwards. I have done it, I'm just not sure how. If we could tilt throw the bomerang consistently then we can quite easilly do this........Full hop towards your opponent, throw a boomerang diagonally down (Edit, The boomerang throw is a tilt throw) straight away but make sure you miss them. You want the boomerang to come down behind them, then you fall back down towards them and hit them with either Nair or Zair (I'll go into the differences later) this will knock them directly into the returning boomerang and give you loads of time to hit them again for a three hit combo. Ok, other then the damage that Nair and Zair do there is also the knock back. I tested this on Mario and Nair worked until about 60% but Zair worked until around 110%, perfect for an easy U-smash kill.

Now, I noticed there is little if no difference in the way the boomerang returns even if it doesn't touch the ground. This means you can use it even if your opponent is close to the edge. This move is awesome by itself but, I see big potential if we combine this with the safe spike to make the safe spike 3.0. It needs more testing and more time but so far this is the best option we have simply because it gives us so much time, time enough even to pull out a bomb and F-smash.
If we SMS tilt throw diagonally down then this would be a much better way of pulling this move off, therfore a much better way of doing the 3.0. The possibilities are endless.

[toondiddy]

this thread is not going to die, atleast not today:)

SO far i still havent been able to tilt throw fox. this may not be possible. i think the b-stick automatically smash throws, but if it doesnt ill try to do this with the b-stick. i know this wont help you fox but it will let us know if it is possible or not.

thanks for that link sasuke. that seems very interesting to say the least. the only way that would be helpful to us though is if we look more into the advantages of bombs lying on the ground.
Befor the week is up ill put that in the OP.

i wont be on here as much for a couple days because my internet is out and the only way i can get on is library/ friends house, so when my internet is back ill make any neccessary updates.
http://i43.tinypic.com/28hzu6o.jpg

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

SO far i still havent been able to tilt throw fox. this may not be possible. i think the b-stick automatically smash throws, but if it doesnt ill try to do this with the b-stick. i know this wont help you fox but it will let us know if it is possible or not.
It's definately possible. I've done it a few times, I'm just not sure how I did it. I'll edit this post when I figure it out if no-one else has posted since then.

You'll be hearing from me.

Edit: I figured it out now. I also found a really easy way to do it, so I can now do it the majority of the time.
Just before I explain, Lets recap so you can see the difference.

To do the SMS with a smash thrown boomerang you jump either forwards or backwards and smash Backwards B, Forwards.
To do the SMS with an arrow you jump either forwards or backwards and slightly tap Backwards B, then smash Forwards as usual (really quickly).
Now, To do the SMS with a tilted Boomerang you jump either forwards or backwards and tilt hit (a bit harder then the arrow) Backwards B, then smash Forwards as usual. If you want to do this really easilly then jump Backwards and hold Backwards then hit B, Forwards. Note this easy way can't be done when jumping forwards. Also note you have to smash Forwards straight after hitting B, no sooner and no later.

Same as usual, If your not sure or your having trouble with the timing, then let me know.

Toondiddy: Now that we know how to do this, it sets up perfectly for the 3.0, simply because the SMS has a tendency to make the boomerang go just over your opponents head. The only problem I can see with it now is it's simply too hard to pull off. The 3.0 will now consist of doing a backwards tilted SMS, Nair or Zairing them into the returning boomerang, pulling out a bomb and F-smashing them, instantly throwing the bomb up, jumping up and grabbing the bomb with Bair then doing a Dair to spike them. It's too much!!!!! I mean sure if you were technically able to do all those things without a mistake, then it would be really easy because of the way one thing flows into the other almost flawlessly. That said I think it's all together too complicated. Let me know what you think about the whole situation.

[demonictoonlink]

Woah... I can do SMS now, but not consistantly. ATM, completely useless, but I'll look into it more.
It does look pretty funny though. I must somehow find a way to combine this with pivot walking. It shall be the funniest mindgame ever!

[-Tempest-]

Special momentum shifting? That when you, say, throw a boomerang in one direction, and move the opposite way while still facing the original way, all while already moving the original way?

[Power of Slash]

a small little idea I have building upon McDingus' suggestion to use TL's bomb like Snakes nade, I haven't tested this in actual play yet, I will soon though.

one could possibly pull out a bomb, C-stick throw it up, pull another bomb out,SH throw,Double jump aerial dodge to catch the bomb,Rang out of the aerial dodge, approach, shield, continue to follow up with whatever you can.

This sounds highly situational, though I thought I might as well throw it out there.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

SMS can also be used to recover better? xD


There is a guide for SMS on the first page, Tempest.

[-Tempest-]

Yeah, I read it, but I didn't quite understand exactly what it meant.

[demonictoonlink]

I'll have a vid up by tonight. One sec

[demonictoonlink]

I made the video ^^ I hope this is right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qpfRmlSig

[-Tempest-]

Oh wow! Ok, I was just wavebouncing then, or whatever it's called. That's awesome!

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I made the video ^^ I hope this is right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qpfRmlSig Ok long story short, I can't actually check out the video right now, so I can't confirm whether or not it's right. I'll let you know in a few hours when I'm back home. If this is right then I can't thank you enough! (I can't make videos......)
You'll be hearing from me.

[demonictoonlink]

I hope it's right. ^^

[Power of Slash]

a small little idea I have building upon McDingus' suggestion to use TL's bomb like Snakes nade, I haven't tested this in actual play yet, I will soon though.

one could possibly pull out a bomb, C-stick throw it up, pull another bomb out,SH throw,Double jump aerial dodge to catch the bomb,Rang out of the aerial dodge, approach, shield, continue to follow up with whatever you can.

This sounds highly situational, though I thought I might as well throw it out there.


meh if anybody's curious about this setup to shielding a bomb explosion, I have a replay of it in use, but I don't have a recording device.

It's neato, but not anything really gamebreaking.

[demonictoonlink]

Send me the replay. I'll upload it for you if you would like ^^

[Power of Slash]

kk PM me your Wii code.

it's vs. a lvl 9 computer, only upload if you think it's worth it though.

[-Tempest-]

meh if anybody's curious about this setup to shielding a bomb explosion, I have a replay of it in use, but I don't have a recording device.

It's neato, but not anything really gamebreaking.

That sounds pretty interesting...

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

You can short hop -> bomb pull and then Z drop (AKA< the SHBD technique =P).
Then shield when you land.

Would probably work.

[Power of Slash]

That's another option as well.

what I just described, should be used in breathing space. What Sasukebowser just said should work when the opponent's in your face :D I mean atleast we can somewhat apply bomb shielding? idk.

it should also be noted that after the boomerang on my aforementioned setup, you get time for an airdodge into a powershield.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I hope it's right. ^^ Yes!!! Your right. I made the video ^^ I hope this is right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qpfRmlSig I'm just posting to confirm that this is how you do the SMS. Thank you so much DemonicToonLink!! Toondiddy should add it to the OP when he comes back.

[-Tempest-]

That's a pretty cool maneuver. Thanks to FIOD for finding it and DTL for posting a video! And Toondiddy for the thread.

[demonictoonlink]

If anyone ever needs me to make a vid, just ask...(I'm not talking about uploading your matches, but maybe in rare cases I will)

[TLMarth]

OK, I think I have found a sort of improvement on the SMS,

It doesn't really matter which direction you're facing, it just depends on which direction you're going in, left or right.

When you do the SMS,
if you first press The direction you're going in, B, then you will reverse both momentum and shoot the boomerang in the same direction as your new momentum. This is what you called the backwards one.
If you first press The opposite direction, B, then you will reverse your momentum, but your boomerang will go opposite the direction of your new momentum. This is what you called the forwards one.

Additionally, I think any character can do the SMS, it's just more useful for projectile users.

ALSO: The one where you press the opposite direction first is already known. Lucas uses it for his PK fire thingy. The thing is that the momentum shift with Lucas is much more significant, while ours in effect just stops our momentum.