Santi spills all of his knowledge.

[Santi]

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z314/PokerplayaSanti/Whatwait.gif

Yes, it's true.
I want Toon Link to advance as a character, become high tier, and I want TL's all over to start placing higher and making TL a force to be reckoned with.


In this thread, I'll do my best to help anyone who has some kind of barrier that is preventing them from placing higher in tournies.

What's raping your TL? What is something a character does that you just can't seem to find a way around? What is a move that you just don't have any answer to?

Catch my drift?

Please be specific. If you have videos to help explain things that would be awesome.
And feel free to help other people who have a question in this thread. My way of doing things or my ideas are far from always being the right choice.

GO?
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z314/PokerplayaSanti/e516bf567b991cc4_IMAGE-1.jpg

[xmisosoupx]

how do you avoid being punished after being hit by 1 of sheik's needles (close to sheik) and how to prevent from being drilled by a fox and shined off edge.

[Santi]

how do you avoid being punished after being hit by 1 of sheik's needles (close to sheik) and how to prevent from being drilled by a fox and shined off edge.

Sheik in the air or staying on the ground? I'm assuming staying on the ground since they can go into tilts and such from there. I try not to stay close to sheik in the first place. Her tilts can be dangerous up close. If I was hit, I would jump and airdoge away. The jump will keep you safe from her grabbing you and the airdodge backwards can prevent her from landing a tilt. Plus you can always zair from the dodge so in turn you can punish her for trying to punish you. Now if Sheik somehow gets to you while you're still stunned, then you are too close to her and that's just a consequence from not mainting that mid-range. Just try your best not to get too close to her face, because that's when things can get ugly.


When I have a feeling that Fox is going to come over the top of me with his drill down air... I drop my shield and Uptilt. It works very well if the Fox is short hopping and the Utilt covers a good part above you. I aslo will jump out of shield and Bair if my back is to fox. Preventing Fox's dair is what's going to help stop that shine. Now if the Fox is on the ledge waiting to drop and shine for the kill... then I do my best not to recover from under him because Fox like's to drop and shine. It's wayy wayy wayy harder for them to get the shine when your horizontal from then because they have to jump and when they jump.. they're already too high to get their shine off. So I don't recover low... I recover horizontally and I wait until I see the fox react and I zair the ledge and grab a hold.

Hope that helps. If there's anything I didn't address properly please tell me.

[xmisosoupx]

oh thank you santi, toon link god, lolz... but sometimes the fox i play against, (Lightning93 not sure if uve heard of him over at the fox boards) he usually does not openly approach too much with the drill, he usually waits until he gets knocked upwards then drills, he sometimes varies it with mindgames, using his reflector to create delay. can you suggest any followups to after knocking him upwards at the same time preventing him from drilling you/missing and not being punished too badly?

[Santi]

OH I see. Yea the Fox I play often, Cake, he also stalls and waits for me to take the bait by using his Reflector. When I knock him upwards, I Don't come up from under him. I come from the side where I can land a Fair/Nair. It might be somwhere in my combo video, I'm not sure.
But when they SHine just Fair or nair them and smile :D

Also Uair if your coming directly below... and Uair does last a long while so if Fox does Shine then tries to Dair you... Your Uair can still hit. Single Full Hop and Uair... the Uair lasts almost all the way down to the ground so you can do your full hop Uair then be safe on the way down and when you get down to the ground, you can react appropietly with Utilt/shieldgrab/upsmash.

[xmisosoupx]

^^ thanks for the tips santi clause, i think that will be enough for my christmas gifts this year hehehe

[Santi]

^^ thanks for the tips santi clause, i think that will be enough for my christmas gifts this year hehehe

Haha no probllem =)
Tell me how it works, and if the other characters are starting to do anything different that gives you any more trouble.

[Yukiwarashi]

Not sure if this is entirely on topic, but hell, I may as well ask.

Santi sir. Do you think I should stick with my pairing of TL/PT and take them as far as I can go, or do I need a third?

[Santi]

Not sure if this is entirely on topic, but hell, I may as well ask.

Santi sir. Do you think I should stick with my pairing of TL/PT and take them as far as I can go, or do I need a third?

TL PT FTW

Thats already 4 characters right there
=)

[Yukiwarashi]

Woo! Alright! Thank you! =D

Now I should go to a tournament so I can get recorded and ask for actual advice...my old videos are plain embarrassing...

[sasukebowser]

Yesssssss.

Wario's Dair. I just try to take the hits to my shield and Nair OoS. Depending on the spacing, sometimes I retreat and Zair too (just to keep him away). Would having a bomb out help?

[The_Rebel_Within]

Any tips for an aggressive toon link.

[M@v]

Just wanted to say thanks Santi for your contributions in the Fox TL discussion ^_^.
Good Luck with TL guys, we are trying to do the same thing with fox. I'm convinced hes at least as good as wolf, who is is high tier.

[iRjOn]

Hmmm kool little thread Santi man...

I just got one question for ya how do you repeatedly teather hog to return inviclbility frames ya know?

[vanderzant]

Hmmm kool little thread Santi man...

I just got one question for ya how do you repeatedly teather hog to return inviclbility frames ya know?

While hanging from the ledge, tap away from the direction you're facing (or down) and immediately press z twice. The first 'z' latches your hookshot onto the stage and the second 'z' regains you invincibility fames.

[iRjOn]

Hmm really thanx I'mma practice that

preciate it.

[chaos11011]

I need help how do i get out of falco's CG easely

[TLMSheikant]

^ Dont get grabbed. Other than that try DI'ing upwards and jumping or Diing away from him. If that doesnt work then ur last resort is either DI towards him and footstool or nair. i really dont know which one.
I like this thread santi.
I have a problem too. How do i fight against dair spammy peaches? And that crown. (fair)

[Santi]

Yesssssss.

Wario's Dair. I just try to take the hits to my shield and Nair OoS. Depending on the spacing, sometimes I retreat and Zair too (just to keep him away). Would having a bomb out help?
I would try to act of of shield way before the down air hits your shield. I know in the heat of battle it's hard to read and react so fast but that's just what you have to do against Wario because once they hit their shield...they'll eat it up and when they land they are either going to gran or Fsmash etc etc. I played a Wario and I let him just Dair my shield and it become a guessing game if I was going to shield grab or dodge the grab. It was no fun and the set was wayy to close because of it. If you act out of shield early you can retreat away like you said which is your best option and you can bair them away.

Any tips for an aggressive toon link.
Ooo I hate playing against TL. lol.
I don't have much expierence. I don't approach.
What I do is punish out of shield when possible.
Aslo dashing into your shield will give you a little extra boost close to them and if they have already commited their zair or something like that then you're close enough to them to punish.


I need help how do i get out of falco's CG easely
What TLMsheikant said.
Also be aware after you get daired. If you act pretictably or just do your get up and attack animation... it will lead to more damage.

^ Dont get grabbed. Other than that try DI'ing upwards and jumping or Diing away from him. If that doesnt work then ur last resort is either DI towards him and footstool or nair. i really dont know which one.
I like this thread santi.
I have a problem too. How do i fight against dair spammy peaches? And that crown. (fair)

I've only played one Peach and that was one friendly with Azen.
I just retreated and did Zair lol.
Bait that Peach and the react out of shield. Peach will fair the ground and it's perfect spacing for you to Zair them.
ANd if the Peach does Dair then do your Zair high.

Chip might have more advice for you then me. Actually I KNOW Chip has more advice and knowledge then myself on this matchup.


Ill type more later. Gotta get ready for school.

[Jman115]

My questions are geared toward Olimar and Sonic.
Ill start with Sonic. My friend has begun maining Sonic. He is surprisingly good with him, definitely not nearly as bad a character as I had once heard, not great but definitely not bad. The big thing I struggle with is when he is rolling around back and forth on the ground. He does it quick and it lasts a long time and this problem tends to occur on final destination. If I jump in the air, I usually land before it is done and he has an opportunity to hit me. One defense I found was if i am in the right position, instead of jumping over him I can bair him but is there an easier method? Sometimes I don't have enough time to bair and end up just having to jump. I have only played him a few times because he just picked him up and haven't had time to experiment but what moves have priority? Can you effectively shield it and attack after he hits your shield? OR is it a shield eating attack?

With Olimar I just ask what is the best strategy to face one? I win probably 55 - 45 against his olimar. His pikmin destroy my projectiles. I find that bombs are my best strategy as they launch him in the air where I have the upper hand. I also find the short hopping and throwing arrows/rangs tends to be pretty effective as it is harder for him to block them at those angles. Once I get him off the stage he is relatively easy to gimp. Approaching him is near impossible without having hit him with a rang or bomb first. His pikmin seem to stop me otherwise. Is there anything else I can do to gain the upperhand?

[Asdioh]

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z314/PokerplayaSanti/e516bf567b991cc4_IMAGE-1.jpgEvery time I see that picture, I think Toon Link is coming out of a pokeball. Is that intentional?

My questions are geared toward Olimar and Sonic.
Ill start with Sonic. My friend has begun maining Sonic. He is surprisingly good with him, definitely not nearly as bad a character as I had once heard, not great but definitely not bad. The big thing I struggle with is when he is rolling around back and forth on the ground. He does it quick and it lasts a long time and this problem tends to occur on final destination. If I jump in the air, I usually land before it is done and he has an opportunity to hit me. One defense I found was if i am in the right position, instead of jumping over him I can bair him but is there an easier method? Sometimes I don't have enough time to bair and end up just having to jump. I have only played him a few times because he just picked him up and haven't had time to experiment but what moves have priority? Can you effectively shield it and attack after he hits your shield? OR is it a shield eating attack?

Best advice I can give against Sonic is to use your boomerang and bombs when he is using his down B spinny thing. That's part of the reason I think TL has the advantage, he can usually win in close combat, and he can stop that move with his projectiles.

Against Olamer, unplug their controller and slap them for using such a stupid character.

[TLMSheikant]

Against olimar. U have to play very aggresive with zair and nair. Dont even try to use proyectiles that much since if a pikmin latches onto u bombs will explode in front of u. Arrows will get blocked as well as boomerang by pikmin throws. So u should use aggresive TL. And dont forget ---gimp him! Its not as easy as it sound though. Olimar is pretty tough for us TLs. But nair helps so yeah use it, spam it, love it. Hope that helps lol. And IF the opportunity ever arises use dsmash to gimp him at low percents but i doubt that will ever happen since olimar doesnt need to approach us.EDIT: One more thing nair gets rid of pikmins latched onto u too.

[Darktemplio]

My questions are geared toward Olimar and Sonic.
Ill start with Sonic. My friend has begun maining Sonic. He is surprisingly good with him, definitely not nearly as bad a character as I had once heard, not great but definitely not bad. The big thing I struggle with is when he is rolling around back and forth on the ground. He does it quick and it lasts a long time and this problem tends to occur on final destination. If I jump in the air, I usually land before it is done and he has an opportunity to hit me. One defense I found was if i am in the right position, instead of jumping over him I can bair him but is there an easier method? Sometimes I don't have enough time to bair and end up just having to jump. I have only played him a few times because he just picked him up and haven't had time to experiment but what moves have priority? Can you effectively shield it and attack after he hits your shield? OR is it a shield eating attack?

Well, to be honest I always thought sonic had no hope until I encountered a sonic player that would actually "combo" me and what not.

The solution to this is simply spam projectiles. Although sonic is fast, it becomes really hard for a sonic to approach you if you have a wall of projectiles. Use your boomerang to your advantage. It sounds silly but somehow ppl tend to forget that boomerangs have a tendency of coming back. Especially after you launched 30,000 bombs and 50 billion arrows. I guess it just blends in with all the non-returning projectiles.

basically launch the boomerang and proceed to distract sonic until the boomerang returns which pops the character up allowing you to go for an upsmash, nair, fair, bair, etc etc.

[Darktemplio]

Against Olamer, unplug their controller and slap them for using such a stupid character.

LMAO!!! sorry for the double post but this really made me lol!

[toondiddy]

While hanging from the ledge, tap away from the direction you're facing (or down) and immediately press z twice. The first 'z' latches your hookshot onto the stage and the second 'z' regains you invincibility fames.

this only works on stages that are not practice stage or frigate orphan. if you push back on the right ledge of either you will wall jump and zair. and if you di back to the board without jumping you'll just grab the ledge again. kinda fun

[Cloud Cleaver]

Good thread, Santi.

I wish I had videos of some matchups, but all I have are replays against computers. :\

Anyway, on your vid you do several of those upsmash-into-bomb kills. What's the best way to set those up, and how good are they for actual practical play?

[CaliburChamp]

I have a question for Santi or other Toon Link mains... how often should I use Toon Link's grabs. I got KOed quite a few times from missing a grab on my opponent. Is Toon Link's grab game worth the risk?

[urdailywater]

Ok, quick question. I want to help Tinky progress so of course I need advice against PEACH and OLIMAR.

My main problems -- the turnip spam and the pikmin spam. How am I even supposed to deal with that? Should I just counterpick my Jigglypuff when the time comes that I need to fight these two?

[sasukebowser]

I have a question for Santi or other Toon Link mains... how often should I use Toon Link's grabs. I got KOed quite a few times from missing a grab on my opponent. Is Toon Link's grab game worth the risk?

Not much unless its after Zair.
Don't use it alone unless your sure you'll grab them.

[Cloud Cleaver]

@urdailywater: Bombs > Pikmin > Turnips...

[CaliburChamp]

Not much unless its after Zair.
Don't use it alone unless your sure you'll grab them.

Besides Z-air to grab. Is there any way to use your projectiles to make sure you do not miss a grab?

[chaos11011]

um what is the best way to fight samus

[sasukebowser]

Besides Z-air to grab. Is there any way to use your projectiles to make sure you do not miss a grab?
Boomerang on the way back is what I do.
But its not really guaranteed.
um what is the best way to fight samus

Get really close and avoid Zair is pretty much the most important thing.
I sorta want to copy/paste Santi's AIM advice, but idk. It might be really long and annoying to look at.

[DanGR]

Against Olamer, unplug their controller and slap them for using such a stupid character.
LOL, I get that a lot.

edit: I have to sig this. Forgive me.

[urdailywater]

@urdailywater: Bombs > Pikmin > Turnips...

How am I going to ever throw bombs if I keep getting paraded with Pikmin? The bombs will just explode right on top of me. =/

Might as well look up some videos though.

[sasukebowser]

Watch Santi's vids against Zori, Water. =)

[TLMSheikant]

Sasuke u beat me to it. I was gonna say the same thing lol.

[chaos11011]

i can never do santi's combo (when you through 2 bombs in the air and slash the enemy into the bombs)when i try it the first bomb hits me when im about to slash the enemy

[TLMSheikant]

Its not important chaos its just a flashy move so dont worry.

[chaos11011]

ok thank you