Enlisting help in the organization of a National Tournament! Please check this topic

[Ultimate Darius]

Im attempting to organize a national Melee Tourny. Anyone interested in helping me please post. Im thinking each person who enters pays a preset amt. (no, im not looking to make money off of this: the money goes towards transportation of the winners to the next level) two winners from the local tourny go to the regionals, two from the regionals to the state, two from the state to the finals. Im looking for anyone who wishes to head a local tourny...the more locations we have the better. Please reply anyone interested in making this come true.

[CORY]

good idea but much much too complicated. how are you going to decide what constitutes local? county, city, some arbritary lines? that's the first thing. then for the bigger states (tx, cali) how do you get the people narrowed down? you'll have a sizable crowd most likely. it'd be best to have pre state tourneys. but then you'll have more matches/tourneys going on in the bigger states than the smaller. not sure if that would matter too much, though. and then there's the problem with the honor system. that's what this would have to depend on more or less and there are some less than scrupulous individuals out there who'd have no problem cheating the system for whatever they want to.

but this is just ramblings from a more or less tourney inexperienced individual, so what the hey? good luck, i guess.

[LordLocke]

Well, the first thing you should do is sit down and think this through.

1) Can you make it big enough to definately attract an audience? This means that you'd have to choose the geographical area within reasonable reach to the largest known group, in order to insure a good turnout even IF people aren't willing to make the travel, and to have THAT large number of people help convince others that the trip is wirthwhile- for Melee, this would probably be Northern California. This would be great if you reside somewhere in California or maybe Nevada. The only other place that Smashers seem to be in a big cluster is New York, but most of that community doesn't seem to post on these boards (I only get sporadic hints from their community on Shoryuken.com) It's always nice to host a hometown tournament, but if you're in the middle-of-nowhere Nebraska wanting to do this, you'd best think about hosting elsewhere.

Ditto the location itself- Deezie gets away with running his TG series at home because of the fact that it's a MOSTLY local affair (Snap Pop, Silas, and CORY not-withstanding), and it's attendance isn't likely to break, say, 40, which makes his rather-large house a little crampt, but is still doable. A NATIONAL tournament will, should it actually get off the ground, attract 100 players, and some national tournaments have attracted up to 500 players for other games. You'll have to find a suitable location to host that many people, and unless you live is a insanely-large house, your backyard isn't going to work. This is probably the most notable reason I don't hold any tournaments myself- my locale wouldn't host more then around a dozen players in comfort.

2)Can I afford it? National tournaments are known to traditionally run at a loss, even with donations and skimming from enterance fees- the B or Evolution series, the big national Street Fighter tournament, typically known as the biggest National tourny period for the US, just finished running at a four-digit loss to it's hosts, the Cannon brothers, although that is in-part due to a theft. While that's a rather extreme example (They rented out UCLA's Ballroom, a number of game cabnets, and a whole lot of supplies), don't expect to do this without taking a hit in the wallet.

3) Can I get everything I need to run it in the time alloted? If you want to run a Melee tournament in one day, you're going to need a number of TVs and GC's with Melee, probably one of each for every 12-16 players in attendance to get this done in a reasonable time. Players saying they can bring one, the other, or both can help, but tournament participants are notorious for making promises they can't/don't plan on keeping just to make sure the tourny goes ahead. You'd best get at least a few COMPLETELY-ASSURED setups before even thinking about it, and even then you'll be at the whims of the community.

And after all that comes the planning. Oh, the planning. When to host it. What day? What times? What point of the year? How are you going to organize it? What modes will be offered for the tournaments? How are you going to be sure it runs smoothly? How are you going to enforce your rules? What rules will you offer? Some of these are general concerns, some are more Smash-only, but sit down and THINK before actually doing this.

Don't mean to be discouraging, but hosting a national tournament is a BIG step above just hosting a local get-together. Just wanna help you be sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

[Scav]

Ah, so much tournament discussion.

What I'm wondering is the resources needed for a tourney that would be pretty much just announced city-wide (and that only a small amount) and then on Smashboards. For instance, I'm in Houston currently, fresh out of Dallas. I know there are 10-15 good Smashers in Dallas, and many would be nuts enough to drive the 250 miles to H-town.

But my burning question is housing. Heh, and a way to keep them occupied I guess... true, for almost any tournament people will be 90% from in-town, but even 5 out of towners can help tremendously.

Are there any good locations to "rent" a smash arena, like the UCLA ballroom? Obviously a ballroom is a little extravagent... but we can't fit enough people into a 13x15 dorm or even in Silas' cozy apartment.

Heh, my biggest worry would be that I actually get off my bum and start working, and after much money and energy being spent, just 3 people show up. All friends of mine. And we have a short, dull, and expensive stroll through smashland.

Ah... rambling a bit. Back to topic: Make sure you have lotsandlotsandlots of certain interest. Set a date (It will be the weekend of *date that is a few months from now*) and get people to commit. Perhaps go so far as to set up times and events, so people can block their schedule. Lordlocke was right... not having enough gamecubes would really hurt a tourney. But not having enough people is even worse...

Oh yeah, and I'd also practice running your events. One thing everyone seems to like about the Tournament Go's are how they're organized and run... if you act like Gamestop and throw a tournament that is sloppy, confusing, and ignorant, well, that kinda cramps the mood ;P. So get with a group of friends and say, "ok, we have x people in a double elimination, 2 out of 3, 1v1, items low, first stage random, loser picks tourney." Draw a bracket and make sure it works. Several times. One problem the Dallas Smash Fests had with the aforementioned system was it was good in theory, but clunky in our execution... hopefully, we can fix that ;P

And... I've rambled on for a bit. Can you tell I've been brainstorming a lot? *wink* Again, the main thing I need to work out is alternative housing (cheap hotels, etc), so any ideas could help me and Darius tremendously...

-Scav

[Ultimate Darius]

I take it you're with me on this Scavanger? And thanks for the insight Mr. Insensitive Prick. LOL I appreciate the advice offered thus far.

[Ultimate Darius]

Ok people. Althoug this is primarily to bring the topic back up to the top, i will make it worthwhile. So far we have locations in:

NYC
Grand Rapids and Detroit MI
Denver, CO
Western Montana
Texas (presuming Scavanger is gonna do this)

Pending Locations:
Ohio
LA
Tournament Go (assuming that i can get Mattdeezie to agree to help us)
Boston
Washington (State)
Ontario (Canada)

Please, anyone who can and is willing to help me take this up, post here AND IM me at ultimatedarius1 (AIM). I also appreciate the constructive criticism from everyone who posted thus far.

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Geez, what an undertaking. But I wish you luck in it. I hope you end up doing one in Phoenix...I'm bored as h3ll and want to test my skills.

[sharkboy013]

Heh... You truly think you can do this without losing a good dollar? I mean, its hard enough up here in Ohio to set up a tourney, much less go to one.

Nationals... Why now? You should've posted this at the beginning of the Summer, its horrible to set up a National tourney now.. (Mind you, I go back to school TOMORROW.)

I also agree with practically everything that Lord Locke just said, PLUS, what if only 16 people show up at the state tournament? Paying a $10 entry fee won't get you nearly enough for plane tickets. And it would be too harsh to ask for more if this person is actually supplying a cube and a TV.

I don't know exactly why you are trying this. Its too messy, and would take months, maybe even a year to plan. And don't even ask me to do it, I've already failed setting up 4 friggin tourneys... And I don't plan on setting one up during the school year.

[jv3x3]

If your Detroit location falls through, I can probably host it. I live about 20 minutes north of Detroit and have a pretty big place. Good luck man

[Ultimate Darius]

Originally posted by sharkboy013
Heh... You truly think you can do this without losing a good dollar? I mean, its hard enough up here in Ohio to set up a tourney, much less go to one.

Nationals... Why now? You should've posted this at the beginning of the Summer, its horrible to set up a National tourney now.. (Mind you, I go back to school TOMORROW.)

I also agree with practically everything that Lord Locke just said, PLUS, what if only 16 people show up at the state tournament? Paying a $10 entry fee won't get you nearly enough for plane tickets. And it would be too harsh to ask for more if this person is actually supplying a cube and a TV.

I don't know exactly why you are trying this. Its too messy, and would take months, maybe even a year to plan. And don't even ask me to do it, I've already failed setting up 4 friggin tourneys... And I don't plan on setting one up during the school year.

Ok. I'm starting this now for a number of reasons, most of them valid.

1.) Many people go on vacation during the summer. Granted, this may help a few people for the nationals, but for the most part, it wont.

2.) In posting this now, my hopes are for the nationals to occur during X-mas break. This will allow for adequate planning time, enlisting potential sponsors, etc. Also, this will allow most people to go, because the majority of people dont go anywhere extensive for Christmas, short of visiting family.

3.) I made up my mind to do this only last week. (I had been debating on it for several months)

Next topic on the list, I am quite confident in the ability of our tournament holders to attract a lot more people than 16. Im very sure each tourny will average about 50 players, if not more. It is the responsibility of the person holding the local tourny to supply the television and Cube materials. Thus, asking for more than $10 a person would be reasonable.

Who ever said ANYTHING about plane tickets? Granted, paid transportation was aforementioned, but nothing was ever stated about plane tickets. Chances are busses will be used.

And btw, the reason I am trying to do this is for any hardcore smashers who want to unite the smash realm of the USA. If you dont want to help make this a reality...either you dont really care about the smash community...or are just afraid you dont have what it takes to make nationals...

[sharkboy013]

The only thing I'm worried about is not making it... Thats the pessimist part of me talking... Kicking everyones butts are the least of my worries here in ohio... (The only people that worry me are the other 4 people like me here in ohio...Rather, probably cause I have never met them in combat.) See, Me and my friend Bret make up the only 2 elite level people in this here city.

So I will go outta my way to say: Afraid? HA! I wouldn't be afraid if my life depended on it. I am not afraid to losing, I expect it all the time, and I am confident that my skills own.

Now I will answer your answers (WHAT?! How the heck do you answer an answer?)

1. I don't ever go on vacation... Well, I didn't this year.

2. X-mas break, eh... Well.. I assume that aint a problem, although Schools everywhere have a different time of lettin us out (We get out the 23rd.... and go back the 6th.) It'd be kinda tricky, you'd have to work round the schedules.

3. Just last week? Heh.

4. 50... Hmmm.. Good way to annihilate.

Well, I personally have no problem, its just that I doubt that yer gonna get all of us together, but it sounds like yer pretty good at planning. I'll be at Ohios tourney, just I won't be hosting it, I've already failed that a bagillion times.

[Scamp]

Quite frankly, just from the last TG tournament I could name at least 10 people that could stomp the crap out of practically anyone. Having 2 people advance per tournament seems kind of silly. If it's going to be a national tournament, it needs to be a huge tournament. Announce it months in advance so people can arrange to go there and have a minimum pot no matter how many people show up so people are guaranteed to have a reason to go there.

As is, I don't think the Smash Brothers community is strong enough for a national tournament. We need something to rival MattD's Tournament Go, otherwise California is pretty much the only competition I'm interested in. Texas is looking like they're going to get something going soon, so I'll keep my mind open, but as of right now I think there's simply too much ambition and not enough support.

[Amorasaki]

In the odd event that this national tournament system gets set up and going, I'd like to say that I could host a smaller regional or state event at my dorm building. No, not in my dorm room, but a floor lounge that can be used for whatever. Last year there was a building-wide tourney held in one of these. The room can easily hold 20-25 people. We had four GC setups (four player ffa's each), and could probably fit 6 systems without cramping too much.

My dorm building is located in Normal, Illinois (east-central IL).
There would probably be at least 15 players just from my building alone, if word got out that there was a tourney being held. There were 12 smashers last year, so there would likely be a small but guaranteed group to hold a base number of players.

For obvious reasons, I wouldn't be able to host anything with more than say 35 people, unless a lot of you enjoy standing. Also, since I wouldn't be able to host anything beyond mid-may, as that's when I move out and head back home.

[spaz519]

Hey, I can't exactly host anything where I live, but I just thought I'd let ya know that I'm in western Montana, so you may have another smasher for there...

[terrakalar]

I'm trying to look at this realistically, yeah a national tourney would be great, but this kind of undertaking doesn't happen overnight, especially for a game that's not only a year old.

I think the best thing you can do at this time is to just hold local tourneys. There aren't that many hardcore Smash communities in the first place (Northern Cali and South Texas come to mind), so you kinda have to develop that first before going national, especially if you wanna have a structured tourney with regionals/state/finals and everything.

Eventually, if individual communities get larger and stronger, there'll be a natural demand to see who is the best *among* the communities, making a national tournament easier to organize. It's a lot better to stir up demand little by little instead of trying to create national interest right off the bat.

Scamp has it exactly right in that there has to be something that rivals TG. Now I know there are a lot of tourneys going around--Cello is organizing a fat 64 man tourney in NYC on Aug 31, but the big problem with that is that there's hardly any hype for that. The internet is a big part of creating demand/hype, which I don't think we don't have enough of...yet.

But basically, the big thing is to start a local tourney right away, which I give you props for trying to do.

[jv3x3]

My advice to you would be, if you sincerely going to persue this, would be to first do some heavy planning and get everything formalized. Then go to ign.com and planetgamecube.com, show them your proposal and see if you can get them to co-sponser. I think if you really show them that you are committed and have throughly undertaken this you should be able to get at least planetgamecube to post updates and tournment schedules (if not much more from both). Boom!!! National exposure. Which equals turn-out, hype, and all the good stuff that goes with it.

I give you props for trying to do this. Good Luck Man

[Ultimate Darius]

Alright! I have the perfect ploy for people everyone! The tournament has been expanded! Not only will SSBM be played, it will be 1 vs 1 AND 2 vs 2. Not only that, but also: BtT, HRC, 10-man, 100-man, 3-min, 15-min, and Cruel Melee will be played!

AND THATS NOT ALL!!!

Also worked in will now be original SSB for all those peeps without cubes yet! Included here will be 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2, as well as BtT and BtP.

(and yes, you may enter any and all of these events!!!)

Because my online time right now is scarce, i will explain more in the next post!

[Ultimate Darius]

Ok. Here's the scoop. The tourny is being expanded to both SSB and SSBM! These are not set in stone, but here is what the setup is:

SSB:

1 vs. 1: $15 (U.S.) No Restart, Select 1 Char throughout
2 vs. 2: $30 (U.S.) (team fee) No Restart, Select 1 Char throughout
BtT : $5* Max 10 Restarts, All Chars, Time Limit 5 min.
BtP : $5* Max 10 Restarts, All Chars, Time Limit 6 min.

Tournament Rules: Double Elimination

In-Game Rules: Stock 5, Damage 1.0, Items off, Team Attack off

Stages: Peach's Castle, Hyrule Castle, Saffron City, Kongo Jungle, Kirby's Dreamland

SSBM:

1 vs. 1: $15 (U.S.) No Restart, Select 1 Char throughout
2 vs. 2: $30 (U.S.) (team fee) No Restart, Select 1 Char throughout
BtT : $5* Max 10 Restarts, All Chars., Time Limit 8 min.
HRC : $5* Max 10 Restarts, All Chars.
10-man: $5* No Restart, 1 Char, Time Limit 1 min.
100-man: $5* No Restart, 1 Char, Time Limit 5 min.
3-min : $5* No Restart, 1 Char
15-min: $5* No Restart, 1 Char
Cruel: $5* Max 5 Restarts/Best of 5 Attempts, 1 Char.

Tournament Rules: Double Elimination

In-Game Rules: Stock 5, Damage 1.0, Items off, Team Attack off, Pause off, Score Display off

Stages: Final Destination, Kongo Jungle (N64), Kirby's Dreamland (N64), Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Hyrule Temple, Pokemon Stadium, Peach's Castle, Fourside?

General Tournament Rules:

1.) Display Good Sportsmanship. Failure to do so will result in a warning. A repeat offense will result in disqualification.
2.) No foul language or obscene gestures. Failure to do so will result in a warning. A repeat offense will result in disqualification.
3.) Bribery will result in IMMEDIATE disqualification.

*These events are only $5, provided you have already entered one of the main tournament events (i.e. 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2)

Also on a side note: Its ok to enter just one of the events, right up to all of the events. (I, for one, plan on entering everything...and losing my @$$ in half of them :P)

In addition, the prices are only a guideline. These prices are also assuming signups are in advance. An extra $5 will be added to the main events (1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2) and $2 to the others for at the door signups. This is to make it easier for setting up the tournaments.

The primary reason for making everyone do the BtT, HRC, the multi-man melees, etc. live is to ensure cheating is not a factor on their memory cards. (I have a friend who knows how to hack memory cards, so i could easily cheat if it were not for this factor ;)) These will only be held in state, the results forwarded and compared for a mini-prize of which is not yet determined.

None of these rules are set in stone, it is just a preliminary thing for others to base their thoughts upon. Please respond with imput. Also, I would LIKE to get the locals goin on around Thanksgiving...the nationals around X-mas....please IM me on AIM at ultimatedarius1 if you would like to help. There are still many areas left that need a smash rep. Until I post again, peace out smashers!

P.S. (To you mods: ) If successfully completing this does not get me into the back room, I don't know what will!

[sharkboy013]

Stage Select is a bit awkward, cause I know some people who'd rather play at Mute or Brinstar Depths... I'm fine with it... Me and Brets best stages are on that list, so I'm completely good.

As long as someone else makes it... lol.

[Mattdeezie]

Like I told you when I talked to you online, you have no idea what you are trying to get yourself into.

I think the best post thus far was from Locke, telling you all the things you need to think of. Hes not being insensitive, hes not being pessimistic, hes being...REALISTIC.

SSBM does not have the community of other games. Its hard enough to pull off a local tournament without half the competition having to leave half way through, nevertheless getting around 50 people to travel across the united states for a tournament.

Every single thing locke posted, and many other things other people posted, you need to address. I have seen you do nothing, however you did manage to make it all the more unlikely by adding all the other stuff.

But really you should stop and think about it for a second. I dont think you even half realize how much work someone puts into running a single tournament, nevertheless something that you are trying to pull off.

Im with terraklar, host something local. I think thats the best thing you can do for the community.

(and items are off, so you can count me out if one miraculously comes this way.)

[Ultimate Darius]

Originally posted by Mattdeezie

I have seen you do nothing, however you did manage to make it all the more unlikely by adding all the other stuff.

Why does this make it more unlikely, when it INCREASES the amount of people it appeals to?

Originally posted by Mattdeezie

But really you should stop and think about it for a second. I dont think you even half realize how much work someone puts into running a single tournament

Believe me, I do. I hosted a tourny here before, and had a positive cash flow (i did not have to spend a dime of my own money)

Originally posted by Mattdeezie

(and items are off, so you can count me out if one miraculously comes this way.)

That sounds to me like a n00b talking. A true smasher can play well in any given situation...

[SmashBroPro]

Well Ultimate Darius I'm rooting for yah man, but I'd have to agree that at the moment the SSBM is still too underdeveloped for a National Tournament. Of course if you could get support from Nintendo or peharps host one at a gaming or animen convention I think you'd find an ample amount of players. For example Gen Con held a SSBM tournament that had a 250+ turnout and a $10,000 grand prize.

btw MattDeezie:
(and items are off, so you can count me out if one miraculously comes this way.)
I'd have to agree this is a bit obstinate. I mean I play regularly w/o items in tournaments without problems. However, I'd be willing to play in a Tournament with them. I don't see the logic on pigeon holing yourself on relatively small rule preferences.

[Scamp]

...the fact is that some people prefer items on and some don't. Therefore, making a national tournament no items limits the appeal and the overall support of the tourney.

Plus, how did you host a tourney without having to spend a single dime? Something just screams ECC5 to me.

Finally, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU??? It's SO hard to take anything you say seriously after adding a bunch of crap to the tournament roster. Who the **** wants to pay five dollars to enter a 10-man melee contest? Or even better, a 10-try HRC or BTT contest. Do you have any idea how hard these things are to do properly? And do you have any idea how BORING it would be to watch such contests? Finally, do you know how much longer these events would make the tournament run?

I say, take out all that crap, and have a 1-vs-1 tournament with the items on, and a team tourney with team attack or items on. After playing and training with team attack on, I believe it to be a far superior way to play.

Also, what's up with selecting 1 character throughout? I, for one, play multiple characters out of necessity because of counter picks. I've never ever ever ever seen a Street Fighter (or any other fighter) tournament force the player to stay with one character throughout the tournament. Can you imagine if you made players stick with one team in MvC2?

And finally, what's this "true smasher" BS? Who do you think we are, Ryu? Ranma Saotome? I wouldn't go around saying the organizer of the most successful SSBM tournaments sounds like a noob.
And SBP, "relatively small rule preferences"? Didn't you read the "Items on or off" thread and see the vastly varying opinions people have on the subject?

[SmashBroPro]

Okay as far as Ultimate Darius rules go I certainly don't like all of them (BTT, Cruel melee, permanent character selection) and yes I doubt the tourament will come around, but why knock it? I'm all for him succeeding. I'd love to see the SSBM communities become stronger. And you know what, even if he fails it costs me nothing to be supportive. I'm looking at this as I have nothing to lose and possibly a lot to gain.

I'd suggest tweaking the rules, but that's really no reason to dump on him.

As far as w/ vs. w/o items I really fail to see the big deal. Yes people have preferences and yes I read the thread, **** I posted in it. Still I can't understand anyone who would turn down a tournament just because items are on or off. It really seems a small matter. I mean when you say that turning items off alienates some of the support you could say the same thing about turning them on. If some of you are so stubborn that you'll never player w/o items you'll find people who will never play w/ them. So what do you do demand 2 1:1 tournaments or just adapt and move on? I'm disturbed by this "it's my way or the highway" attitude.

Edit:
I certainly don't agree with calling MattD a n00b, not in terms of playing skills or organising a tournament, but I really don't like to comment on personal attacks so I just posted like Darius didn't say anything in hopes it would get swept under the rug. From the stand point of defending a friend I can understand your post, I just encourage moderation here since there really is no need for a flame war.
However:
None of these rules are set in stone, it is just a preliminary thing for others to base their thoughts upon. Please respond with imput.
Darius was clearly mistaken inflaming MattD (Darius: fyi that is certainly not the way to go about trying to enter the BackRoom), but he appears at least open to advice on rule changes.

Darius:
You need to consider a lot of factors. Number of people attending, size of location, time of startup, number of available of GCs and TVs, etc. For this reason I would consider holding the BTT and Cruel melee as simply an exibition. If you have a 1:1 tournament and a Team Tournament (which there are ample support for both) I'm sure you'll find yourself busy enough. I would also strongly reconsider permenate character selection. There are plenty of other options that succesfully allow multiple character picking.

[Scamp]

I guess I didn't make it clear that I would also support a no-items tourney if there is one. You're also right about the items tourney alienating people who only play with items, I forgot to mention that.
But, that's why I suggested having 2 one-on-one tournaments.

And I'm not saying f-yoo-ck in my posts, that's actually h-eh-ll. H-eh-ll isn't censored at Gamefaqs, so oops. Sorry if it sounded extreme.

Actually, the main reason why I dumped on Darius is because of his replies to Deezie's post. Seriously, if you're so disturbed by the "my way or the highway attitude", look at Darius' replies to Deezie's post. Apparently he has tournament running exp, which is a good thing, but it seems to me that he's out of touch as to what increases and decreases the appeal of a tournament.

I'm still curious how he ran a tourney without spending a single dime of his own money.

But, although it may not sound like it right now, I'm 100 percent in favor of any tournament, even ones with screwy rules. (That tourney in LA is a good example. I'd go to it if I could.) I'm just dumping on Darius because A: I consider Deezie a friend of mine and B: I really don't think Darius knows what he's talking about. It seems like he's basing everything off of Tekken.

But, we'll see how things go.

[terrakalar]

OK, the past five posts illustrates perhaps one of the big problems with hosting a "national" tourney. People can't even agree on the rules. Now that's cool, considering a Melee tourney is alot harder to organize than a SF tourney due to all the different "options" that Melee has, then people talk about preferences and all that good stuff.

What's really hurting not only this type of endeavor, but the Smash scene in general, is the close-mindedness that some people exhibit. I like SmashBroPro's attitude, that regardless of the rules, I'd try to go to a tourney, heck it's better than nothing.

Scamp, you're one of the most intelligent posters here, but I gotta disagree with you on this one. If the "Items on or off" thread has "vastly varying opinions" on this subject, why should the rules be specifically set to items on? SmashBroPro has a point in that items on can alienate non-item players as well.

I don't wanna turn this into Items vs No Items Part Deux, but my point here is that Melee is chock full of options, so you can't really have a stubborn view of what rules *should* be set for a tourney. For some people, the items issue may seem clear, but the rules at TG also specify Stock. Now yeah stock is popular but there's probably a contingent out there that plays 1 on 1 Time mode. Are you gonna invalidate someone's skill at the game because they're the champion of a 1 on 1 Time tournament?

So it shouldn't really invalidate a no item tournament to the point that a tourney is not even WORTH going to if items are off. I thought the whole point of tourneys was to build a smash community in the first place. Yeah, the NorCal community is quite strong, and the uber-successful TG plays with items on. But there's a pretty strong community in NYC that's not talked about on these boards. This Saturday is their third installment of their NYC Melee tourney. It's gonna be a 64 man tourney. The tourney is items OFF. So it's not like the whole nation has a consensus on the items issue.

*****Basically what I'm saying is that even though Ultimate Darius has a lot more problems to worry about, don't just close it off due to the in-game rules. Now, all this crap I just talked about, I'm talking about in context with tournaments "in general." I understand that there's gonna be a lot of flack cuz this thing is presented as a "national" tourney, and when you have something "national" you gotta appeal to the masses. I'd say compromise a bit and have items on "Low" setting.

EDIT: Aw man, kinda posted this two posts too late. That's my feelings on this matter anyway, to further reinforce what SmashBroPro has said (and Scamp in that previous post).

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

BtT, Cruel Melee, and any non-vs. mode tournaments will not attract players to the tournament. they drive me away from it, because I know TV space would be wasted on them and it would suck. Also it's luck as to whether you have a good run or not. And it costs extra money. And it's a complete waste of time.

They will not attract players and they will crap up the tournament.

On to items:

I don't think it particularly matters and I agree that it's actually pretty stubborn to decide not to play just because items aren't included. What would make sense would be for Matt to refuse to host one with items off, as Darius was trying to enlist his support...but that's not what Matt said, so yes, stubborn. A tourney is a tourney. There actually is an argument for items off even though I don't agree with it so I can understand them being off. I think the OBVIOUS solution here, of course, would be to play with Items on low. (it's called a compromise, kids). After writing this I see terrakalar just suggested this. Like I said, it IS obvious. As to calling Matt a newbie that is sheer idiocy but there's no need to dwell on it...it only hurts Darius' credibility, not Deezie.
And the "A true smasher can play in any conditions" thing. That's ridiculous. So if there was a tournament, 100-stock, Pichu only, bobombs on very high, damage ratio 200%, lightning melee on Big Blue with 2 computer player Bowsers, you would attend that tournament? You're a true smasher, and you can play under any conditions. Why not those? Maybe because it's not the ebst test of skill available. A tourney should be the best test of skill. Matt believes that involves having items. doesn't make him not a true smasher. Ridiculous.
Character selection: Compromise again. Some say you should have to stick with one character. Some say you should be able to change characters. Maybe you could compromise and allow three characters per player? Just a thought.

Anyway this national tourney has a lot of internal problems which I just addressed but Darius has still not informed us as to where he is going to find people to host the hundreds of tourneys this would take. Nor has he said how it would get advertised so it could at least reasonably claim that it has reached a good portion of the nation's players (if you are gonna call a tournament national, people should have heard about it). In high density areas where will these tourneys be hosted? Saints like Deezie are one-of-a-kind as far as giving out there houses for a day.

-B

[sharkboy013]

You have quite a bad attitude, first you call me a chicken for not giving into your tourney, AND you call MattD a newbie? Are you dumb? Cause Matt could kill you in SSBM easy, as could I.

I'd love to have one of these, but not if its hosted by a chook.

Items, I don't care. I'll play on or off. Character select.. I'd prefer to change my character, I'd like to actually like to show off with multiple characters...

As bee said, the extra stuff is gonna draw your players away. That kind of stuff is reserved for online bragging rights.

[Ultimate Darius]

Originally posted by spaz519
Hey, I can't exactly host anything where I live, but I just thought I'd let ya know that I'm in western Montana, so you may have another smasher for there...

Where at in Western Montana? Im movin to Glasgow soon!

[CORY]

hmmm.... there's a few things that totally bunkify your rules for this thing. i can live with no items. marth isn't the best with them so i normally just use them to throw and setup, no big loss there; add that to the fact that it takes me freaking forever to realize that items are off the few times someone messes with my set up and i could care less.

but, the main things that cheese me off are the character selections and the stages. believe it or not i'm trying out new characters right now to complement my marth game. what if i feel like trying one out? what if i come up against a fox/falco who can rape me? counter charactering kicks so much ***. and don't say, "Alright. How about two characters." or "How about three characters." how about you can use whoever you feel like without having to pick only one, two, or three? what's so wrong with being able to bust out multiple characters in response to anything that may happen? and also: is this just one match? only one match that decides? that is also bunk. at least two out of three. drop the stock if you think two out of three matches is too long. i'd rather have three stock but at least two chances to win instead of just one. i wouldn't even care if i got slob pick rules (loser can change char. and level) or only one or the other, or nothing. if i have at least one more chance to pull through i'm going to feel a helluva lot better about attending a tourney.

second big thing: what the fro is with limiting stages? so what if the moving stages are hard? they benefit the aerial fighters. think about it: if you're moving and jumping a lot what type of moves are going to be used the most? aerial ones. looking back on tg3 i can see why adam (i think) picked poke floats against reciph once. luigi has insane aerail priority and he was going to take advantage of it as fully as he could. if i knew i was going against a character that's not strong aerially i'd go for poke floats (mainly just because i practice on it.) the only stage i could see dropping is big blue and that's because almost the instant you touch the floor you're screwed. other than that the moving stages weren't just oversight by the designers. just as platforms and walls help certain characters with drop throughs, and wall jumps and wall combos, moving stages help the strong aerialists. however, limiting those stages to a first round random pick is all good.

currently, i don't care how big the tourney is. with those big things i probably wouldn't consider it worth my (how much... let me check real fast) 45 dollars! what the ****? i'm assuming the thirty for the team tourney would be for both members and not each but, day-hum! for such a small limited scope of the game i'd rather save up and go to another tg than spend any flight money on this!

well, that's my wood nickel on the matter.

[Ultimate Darius]

You guys are right. I shouldn'ta flamed Deezie as I did. I'm sorry, he just got me a bit ticked at that little tidbit about items.

As far as the single character bit, i had intended on taking that out before I posted, I simply forgot.

Cause Matt could kill you in SSBM easy, as could I.

Sharkboy: talk the trash after the smash, for all our sakes, ok?

BBT: You are absolutely right that my comment about a true smasher was a bit out of hand. You are also right in the fact I haven't yet stated how I'm gonna do this thing. The plan is to get ign.com and planetgamecube.com to help co-sponsor this deal. Also, although highly unlikely it will happen, im talking to the Big N about sponsorship as well. Also, there is word-of-mouth communication...

Scamp: Word-of-mouth communication was about 80% of the advertisement i had going on for my SSB tourny i held. I was able to hold it without cost to myself for a variety of reasons:
1.) Word-of-mouth Advo
2.) Fliers (the other 20% of advo)
3.) Rent for the tourny location was $50
4.) Pricing was $15 in advance, $20 at the door, half were at the door signups.
5.) There were over 30 people.
6.) There was just enough to pay rent, and the prize, which equals $0, thus me not spending a dime of my own cash.

As a side note to everyone, it looks like items will be set on low for the tourny...however, some of them will be taken out, due to extreme cheapness...if theres an item you want out, put it in your posts. Also, the "extras" (non-vs.) would be held AFTER the "main events" (vs.), so anyone not wanting to watch wouldn't have to....but it was also said, these are not set in stone, so they may be yet taken out. Thanks to all, in bashing or not, for replying.

[LordLocke]

Darius: I will say this- your ruleset is rather screwy. The items on/off is kinda a matter of preferance (Although I personally prefer it on- Pikachu and IC's are strong in the item department), but 1 character and limited stages are wack house rules that have no place in a tournament. ESPECIALLY a planned NATIONAL. You choose the easiest, most generic set of rules that the most people are likely to be OK with, and that would be any character/all stages. I don't think you'll get any support for the character rule, and you'll only get support stage-wise for banning Big Blue and Icicle Mountain. (****, I'd support the former- that stage IS decided almost as much on luck as skill. **** track) Items low is probably the optimal item setting should item preferance become an issue, but totally off is something I'm cool with. If you are SO afraid of moving types of levels or what-not, make an agreement clause- if two players or teams can agree on a stage pre-match on the otherwise-random selected level, let them play on it.

And the side tournaments are a waste of time/TV Space when it's been shown that with FIVE TVs, a 30 man 1v1 tournament can go for 4-5 hours, and a 21 Team Round-Robin can go for over eight. A tournament for the other stuff is only if you can be sure you have the resources/time to get the main events over FIRST, and Melee tournaments are notorious for running long.

Additionally, your main events are a bit on the expensive side. Yes, it sweetens the pot, but after traveling a long way, $30is still a huge chunk of change to throw down for the tournament. I'd say, if you want a more-expesive tourny, you should make it $10/$20. It's more reasonable for a single person to drop $20 for entry then $30, and it makes the pot fat still, especially if turnout is really good.

Oh, and watch the insults, Darius. Calling the best person on the boards to give you advice (Deezie is the only tournament hoster who has drawn out-of-staters as far as I know) a total noob isn't going to be good for your cred, or for getthing his support.

[Mattdeezie]

Okay some clarification...

First off my disagreement with recent tournaments has been probably around 80% because of the hosters, and 20% about the rules.

First off why dont I want there to be a no item national tournament. Cause first off no one has been able to convince me why no item play is superior. The number of moronic replies for the no item cause out number the intellegent responses 99-1. I think there are like two people out there who showed intelligence, and I respect those people for their opinions. However, I still find every day why item play makes the game better. It balances it, it makes it more fun, it PREVENTS cheapness. The arguments for no item play seem to fade into the distance.

Still though, there are tons of people out there who play no items. Why? Cause people think "items are cheap." A statement that makes me feel sick cause the people do not actually look at the game.

The more stuff out there that rings no items, the more it becomes "the way to play." That is my fear. I would like to do anything that I can to stop it. Its my personal preference, and I hold to it strongly.

Therefore no I do not want to support a national tournament that rings "no items." Not supporting it in my opinion does not hurt the community, I think it helps it.

Second reason I do not want to support the community. The guy has absolutely NO IDEA what he is trying to do. What he is attempting is way above what he can pull off. Adding all the games on top of it just makes it all the more silly. He!l, throw in coin mode, or stamina while you are at it. Its hard enough to host two large tournaments in one day, nevertheless like the 10 you mentioned.

I never said it was not a good idea. Its great to think about, or to wish for. But its not going to happen.

[Ultimate Darius]

Originally posted by Mattdeezie
However, I still find every day why item play makes the game better. It balances it, it makes it more fun, it PREVENTS cheapness.

How on earth do items prevent cheapness?

Originally posted by Mattdeezie
Still though, there are tons of people out there who play no items. Why? Cause people think "items are cheap." A statement that makes me feel sick cause the people do not actually look at the game.

Anyone can make item play cheap... If all one can do is run around and wait for items to appear, how is that not cheap?

Originally posted by Mattdeezie
Second reason I do not want to support the community. The guy has absolutely NO IDEA what he is trying to do. What he is attempting is way above what he can pull off. Adding all the games on top of it just makes it all the more silly. He!l, throw in coin mode, or stamina while you are at it. Its hard enough to host two large tournaments in one day, nevertheless like the 10 you mentioned.

I never said it was not a good idea. Its great to think about, or to wish for. But its not going to happen.

The only reason i can think of for it not happening is for pessimistic people like you, Deezie. If all of us band together instead of fighting like this, we can make it happen...besides, like i said before, i am OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS!!!! That means, for people dead-set against no items *cough*MattDeezie*cough* i am willing to work with that.

[rob1out]

good luck... email nintendo... maybe they'll sponsor... you never know. y not limit stages... make it no items final destination only!!! mwhahahhahahaha!!!!

[sharkboy013]

Item usage is a strategy. I am ambivalent (OOOO. Big word.) on the item usage... See, I think they are cheap in a way (Home Run Bats... COUGH COUGH) But can screw the user in the same time (Pokeball Goldeens) There are good items (Pokeballs, Beam Swords, The occasional Green Shells.) Cheap Items (Hammer, Bat, ALL Healing items.) and of course, the really sucky ones. (The FAN.)

I like some of them, and I use most of them. The hammer rarely shows up, and its powers nerfed, who needs it anymore. I plain HATE Healing items, as I don't like having to do a combo ALL over again cause my opponent is abusing the healing item. Its cost me a lot of fights before I started using Falco. I abuse Pokeballs and Beam Swords... and I love MSB's.

So I'm 2 sided on this arguement.

On the character select? I am not using one person, as much as I love to use Falco, I'd like to show off with other people too. (In teams, its not that way for me. Me and Bret just pick one team and stick with em.)

Stage Select... I have to agree with Locke on this one. It puts more depth and strategy into the game if you look at it. As long as Flat Zone, Icicle Mountain, and Big Blue are taken out... I'm good. I abhor Mushroom Kingdom II, but noone ever turns that off for some reason.

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

You SAY you're open to suggestions. Yet even when ten different people come on here telling you the same thing, you don't move an inch and still have all this lame stuff. We are giving you constructive criticism (and, I'll admit, some flat-out insulting stuff). But you don't listen to any of it. Including SSB and the other crap is a mistake. No items is in the air but I'm with Deezie that it is not a good thing. your stage selection is hella lame. As well as your character selection. Yet you seem to not care about the feedback we give you. And you really should heed the advice of people like Deezie who are veteran hosts of three consecutive large tournaments. He knows what he's talking about.

I'd also like to find out how getting 'Sponsorship" from these places is going to work. Does IGN have nationwide warehouses there for the taking to turn into tourney space? TVs to give you? I mean it sounds fun in theory but have you really thought about this and asked around?

-B

[Ultimate Darius]

No BBT, I have not "not moved an inch." I merely did not address that particular issue in my last post. Just because I did not say, "yea, ok, its out" doesn't mean I didn't heed anyones sayings. I hear all of you and your suggestions, but like i said before, the only way this is gonna work is if we all stop fighting over it and compromise everything...that means if enough people want items, we got items. Enough people wanna tinker with stage selection, hey, you got it! Enough people want to take out the other sh!t too, well hey, im fine with that also. Please dont make me the "bad guy" here, ok?

[PimpLuigi]

I hate to join the pessimist club, but i think Melee is still in it's fledgeling stages. The game has only been out for 9months, not even yet a yr. I agree in that there just isn't enough demand to support a national tournie.

As has already been stated, more groups like Deezie's need to be cultivated- ala Texas, NeyYork, Chicago before we can start to even conceive of a national tournie.

The fact that smashboards is growing exponentially is proof of the rise of Melee's popularity, but still we're a relatively new fledging community- dwarfed by the street fighter community.

I think it's exciting pioneering a new rapidly growing fighter and I think we all want a national tournie eventually, but let's be realistic here, you can't run before you learn to walk, I just don't believe the demand is there yet. As of now smashboards is the best Melee site out there, and this tournie room alone is proof of the growing demand for the game, but a national tournie? I don't think so.

Like others have said, and i have to agree, i believe our first priority is strengthing the smash community as much as possible. And i think this is already happening on it's own. I sincerely believe Texas in the next 6months or so will easily be rivalrying Cali. And increasingly interest is popping up more and more all over the country. Soon i'll compile the tournie registry and post of a list of smashers by region. So many tournies have been popping up, Nova and V have come up with a ranking system they are currently testing out. So we are coming along(astoundingly quickly if you ask me), but let's not get ahead of ourselves, the games not even a year old. If anything i forsee the demand for Matt's tournies outweighing Matt's actual resources (space, t.v.'s) and eventually Matt's going to have to start thinking about sponsors and renting space and such.

So while i'm truly in admiration of your ambition, i just don't think we as a community are quite there yet.

-Pimp

[SmashBroPro]

As far as items go I have no interest in reliving another item debate as I think all parties have put thought into it. I'm aware that the myth is that people who don't play without items do so because they feel it's 'cheap'. This is just as true as the idea that people who play with items do so simply 'cause it's there' and Nintendo put it in the default.

I've played in a 5 small tournaments thus far and countless matches w/o items and I have yet to see a problem with balance or inactivity. Turning items off will not ruin the game anymore than turning them on will. I find the game more competitive and enjoyable w/o them. If you feel differently I respect your opinion. Like I said I'm not about to turn down a tournament on such a small matter. A person needs to be flexible.

As far as the road to bigger things in SSBM I admit its a perilous one. The biggest disadvantage at the moment is that SSBM is console based. With SF you atleast have a local gathering that will probally account for all the best players in your area. In SSBM you can have two players that are both avid players and live on the same street, but don't realise it. Arcades tend to attract a wider diveristity of players than basements and living rooms.

Still if these larger tournaments continue to grow I'm sure you could find companies interested in helping out. Perhaps at an anime convention or even something from Nintendo. Magic the Gathering had a similiar problem when it first started out, now it has organised tournaments in every state as well as nationals.