Brawl+ character balance discussion

[The Paprika Killer]

Character balance
or how to make MK less broken

This thread will be discussing character balance in brawl+, this includes nerfing, buffering and misc. changes (PT codes).
If you want to suggest new changes, be specific please, so asking "plz nerf MK kthxbai" is ofcourse incorrect, instead "can MKs ground speed be lowered?".

posting guidelines:
please keep to this formula

thing that can be altered are the following, there are more, but these will be enough to perfectly balance out the game, discussion on new mechanics not here please.

-weight
-fallspeed
-jump/SH height
-knockback of moves
-damage of moves

always give some reasoning why the suggested alteration should be made. it's doesn't have to be an essay, but it does have to be something.

example:
MKs Dsmash has too much knockback for the speed it has and this should be lowered by about 30%.

in the second post you will find in the future suggested and reasonable adjustments to each character.

[The Paprika Killer]

reserved for future use

[JacobWins]

Make the knee easier to sweet spot.

Kill Meta knights range

[shanus]

The knee does nto need to be made easier to sweetspot. With the increased hitstun and character control, i combo into sweetspot knees all the time now. Please remove that point.

Nerf MKs downsmash speed.

[KayJay]

mario's down b could use some more knockback or do some dmg to be more useful. same goes for squirtles B

[JacobWins]

The knee does nto need to be made easier to sweetspot. With the increased hitstun and character control, i combo into sweetspot knees all the time now. Please remove that point.

Nerf MKs downsmash speed.

I can't describe well with words but the way its sweet spotted is just stupid. They can be right in the knee and it wont go through but if they're a little above or below it works...?

Fix falcon

[Almas]

Work on the jump code suggests that weight changes for individual characters should be easy to do.

I'm personally unsure that there will be enough code room for these changes - I'd be more interested in finding ways to integrate items into gameplay (with spawns at fixed times/locations).

[Dark Sonic]

Character specific codes are definitely on the back burner dude. There is a limited amount of space available for coding, so it's quite possible that there will be no character specific tweaks at all when the project is "done."

[The Paprika Killer]

well, this could be used in vanilla too, and half of the codes of brawl+ are not getting in, yet we keep on making them.

[shanus]

I can't describe well with words but the way its sweet spotted is just stupid. They can be right in the knee and it wont go through but if they're a little above or below it works...?

Fix falcon

Do you play Brawl+? Do you know how easy it is to get a sweetspotted knee? It doesnt need changing.

[cobaltblue]

Maybe for fun in VB, but other wise trying to add them into VB would create 3 scenes and I kinda doubt people want to learn how to play the same game 3 times for turnnies.

[The Paprika Killer]

well, only dercreasing dmg on certain attacks should keep the combos alive thus not change playstyle, but make it less effective, that way you could balance without the need of new playstyle.

[Dark Sonic]

well, this could be used in vanilla too, and half of the codes of brawl+ are not getting in, yet we keep on making them.

SBR stated in the podcast that they would not be using any character specific changes in vanilla brawl. Most TOs are even against the Pokemon Trainer codes.

If you want to make the codes, then sure, but implementing them? Before we even suggest changes for character balance, we have to actually figure out how balanced or imbalanced Brawl+ is. We know the balance for normal brawl, but has anyone actually took time to examine how each individual gameplay change has affected each character in each matchup? NO! We have no idea what the first brawl+ tier list will be like (although most agree that MK will still be top, I could see Snake easily dropping all the way down to high tier).

[The Paprika Killer]

the developers of brawl didn't really test everything out either, but if you don't want this already, fine, just leave this topic alone.

[Jiangjunizzy]

character balance is hardly an issue right seeing as how everytime we change the game engine a character is probably getting better. however, if we were to fix some characters, i sincerely believe the fixes would be very minimal seeing as how most characters in brawl are actually pretty good, especially with combos involved.

however, assuming that we have space left over and we can come to a consensus...

i would advocate making links smashes stronger, making samus' charge shot stronger, making metaknight weak in every imaginable way to make him more along the lines of a sheik type of character, and nerfing snakes kicks. other than small changes like that, i don't really think much is necessary.

[plasmatorture]

I think giving Squirtle and Mario a decent amount of damage to their neutral b and down b respectively would be good. Make them a useful risk vs reward move, similar to Samus or Marth's neutral b (but not as good).

No that Squirtle really needs buffing, but it wouldn't hurt to make every move in the game viable if possible. :p

[ChiboSempai]

i think this is going about in a wrong way. you cant really just open this up to everyone or your going to get answers like MAKE THE KNEE MUCH BETTER!!!! (which u already did...)

this is the kind of topic that needs to be in either the SBR or the Smash Lab, most likely the Lab.

Though if I had to put my own opinions here lol
Link:
-Make his upB go farther in the air
Meta Knight:
-Make his dsmash have a slight bit of startup lag
-Make the hitbox of his tornado slightly smaller
-Reduce knockback of his uB slightyl
-Slightly increase the knockback of his nair
Snake:
-Reduce knockback of utilt
-Reduce landing lag on his dair
-Make nades come out on like frame 2 instead of 1
ROB:
-Airdodge out of uB
-Increase knockback of dtilt
Jigglypuff:
-Reduce the amount of shield her pound takes away
-Make all of her non-smash ground attacks faster
-Increase knockback of rest
-Increase running speed
Sonic:
-Faster running speed (lol jk)
-Increased knockback for fair bair nair and ftilt

thats all iv got from thinkn off the top of my mind for now

[metaXzero]

^I'm surprised with Snake, you didn't suggest SHRINKING THOSE DAMM HIT BOXES ON F/U-TILTS.

Man, I hate those moves.

[The Paprika Killer]

I don't think we can change hitboxes, but we could make the attacks weaker instead

[kupo15]

I think the added mechanics make things a lot more balanced but if I were to say something it would be

yosh/ness- Double jump cancel

[MBlaze]

Mario can combo and gimp better too.

[Finns7]

Link does not need anything you guys act like he completly is useless. His smashes are strong too but w/e.

If its possible I do think that snakes ftilt and utilt should be a little more realistic, instead of you getting hit from 5 miles away. Metas shield should just be weaker then everyone elses this would hurt his defense game and since everyone can combo it would prob be best to nerf his defense.

[wazgood]

make it so stickers affect vs brawl. duhrr

[Sesshomuronay]

Make wolfs blaster autocancel!

[Jiangjunizzy]

Make wolfs blaster autocancel!

god no

10char

[Steeler]

make wolf's sweetspots not utter poopie lol

[Orca]

The knee does nto need to be made easier to sweetspot. With the increased hitstun and character control, i combo into sweetspot knees all the time now. Please remove that point.

I agree! Before Brawl+ I would have requested this in a heartbeat, though now, I combo into it quite effectively. It does not need to be changed in anyway. I love Brawl+!

[XxGUNZxX]

I think the added mechanics make things a lot more balanced but if I were to say something it would be

yosh/ness- Double jump cancel

agreed and add Lucas as well. Also, I would like to see Jigglypuff's vB stronger even though I hate Jigglypuff but I still think you should be rewarded more for when you can connect with it. Also, if Link's upB on the ground had more knockback, he would be a better character.

[The Phenom]

In general, hit box nerf on characters with big hit boxes.
-It will somewhat induce us to be more precise on landing hits.

This would be great...

[MorphedChaos]

Get rid of Grab Release. this buffs Wario and a multitude of characters.

[kupo15]

agreed and add Lucas as well. Also, I would like to see Jigglypuff's vB stronger even though I hate Jigglypuff but I still think you should be rewarded more for when you can connect with it. Also, if Link's upB on the ground had more knockback, he would be a better character.

dont add lucas. There is a reason why hes different. It would be as if you gave link the firesword spike that young link had..

[Team Giza]

I would rather see Metaknight's downsmash weakened significantly in terms of knockback rather then just slowing it down.

Bowser seems like he could stand to be heavier. I've been playing him a lot with the brawl+ codes. He seems to be one of the worse off character now but if he was just a bit heavier he would be good.

[Kraryo]

:sonic:-
*Make Sonic's dsmash and usmash come out on frame 1-5.
*The first part of D-throw where Sonic is in a ball shouldn't be techable.
:metaknight:-
*Double the ending and lag on all of his aerials, dsmash, and all of his tilts. For the landing lag of his attacks, they should be as long as Snake's. Lag for landing helpless should be huge as well.
*Remove most of his extra jumps so that he only has 2 midair jumps like Charizard. He would lose his glide (including his ^B glide). Tornado wouldn't get any aditional height and the drill rush wouldn't push MK up at the end and cover less length.
*His sword would have one-third of it's range.
MK would be only as heavy as half of Jigglypuff.
*To help emphasis his longer landing lag, he should fall much faster as well. He'd have Fox's falling speed and Link's fast falling speed.
:gw:-
*Bair and nair would have smaller hitboxes and more landing lag.
*Utilt would have less range and have more ending lag, but his utilt would start up much faster.
:falco:-
*Remove the chaingrab.
Make the firing frequency of his blaster as low as Link spamming arrows. His shdl would be the same frequency as his blaster on the ground before it was slowed down. That way, Laser Locking would be removed.

[Steeler]

no grab release would nerf the hell out of bowser.

not that i'm against it, but just mentioning the flip side of that hack.

i don't think character balance hacks can coexist with brawl+, except for maybe the pt hacks.

[plasmatorture]

:metaknight:-
*Double the ending and lag on all of his aerials, dsmash, and all of his tilts. For the landing lag of his attacks, they should be as long as Snake's. Lag for landing helpless should be huge as well.
*Remove most of his extra jumps so that he only has 2 midair jumps like Charizard. He would lose his glide (including his ^B glide). Tornado wouldn't get any aditional height and the drill rush wouldn't push MK up at the end and cover less length.
*His sword would have one-third of it's range.
MK would be only as heavy as half of Jigglypuff.
*To help emphasis his longer landing lag, he should fall much faster as well. He'd have Fox's falling speed and Link's fast falling speed.

This is... ridiculous. We want MK to be a playable character still, not bottom of bottom tier. Any ONE of those changes would probably be more than enough to nerf him to balanced (except maybe the last one).

[Ellio 2 b]

MK's glide distance can be shortened?

[Jiangjunizzy]

:sonic:-
*Make Sonic's dsmash and usmash come out on frame 1-5.
*The first part of D-throw where Sonic is in a ball shouldn't be techable.
:metaknight:-
*Double the ending and lag on all of his aerials, dsmash, and all of his tilts. For the landing lag of his attacks, they should be as long as Snake's. Lag for landing helpless should be huge as well.
*Remove most of his extra jumps so that he only has 2 midair jumps like Charizard. He would lose his glide (including his ^B glide). Tornado wouldn't get any aditional height and the drill rush wouldn't push MK up at the end and cover less length.
*His sword would have one-third of it's range.
MK would be only as heavy as half of Jigglypuff.
*To help emphasis his longer landing lag, he should fall much faster as well. He'd have Fox's falling speed and Link's fast falling speed.
:gw:-
*Bair and nair would have smaller hitboxes and more landing lag.
*Utilt would have less range and have more ending lag, but his utilt would start up much faster.
:falco:-
*Remove the chaingrab.
Make the firing frequency of his blaster as low as Link spamming arrows. His shdl would be the same frequency as his blaster on the ground before it was slowed down. That way, Laser Locking would be removed.

have you been following brawl+ at all?

[Conclusively]

:sonic:-
*Make Sonic's dsmash and usmash come out on frame 1-5.
*The first part of D-throw where Sonic is in a ball shouldn't be techable.
:metaknight:-
*Double the ending and lag on all of his aerials, dsmash, and all of his tilts. For the landing lag of his attacks, they should be as long as Snake's. Lag for landing helpless should be huge as well.
*Remove most of his extra jumps so that he only has 2 midair jumps like Charizard. He would lose his glide (including his ^B glide). Tornado wouldn't get any aditional height and the drill rush wouldn't push MK up at the end and cover less length.
*His sword would have one-third of it's range.
MK would be only as heavy as half of Jigglypuff.
*To help emphasis his longer landing lag, he should fall much faster as well. He'd have Fox's falling speed and Link's fast falling speed.
:gw:-
*Bair and nair would have smaller hitboxes and more landing lag.
*Utilt would have less range and have more ending lag, but his utilt would start up much faster.
:falco:-
*Remove the chaingrab.
Make the firing frequency of his blaster as low as Link spamming arrows. His shdl would be the same frequency as his blaster on the ground before it was slowed down. That way, Laser Locking would be removed.

Yes, take away everything to make a certain character good, but ONLY add to a character you use. That seems fair.

Edit : Read other posts. Stop adding to only your main to make your character have advantages over others. This is for balance, not to make your main the best.

[ShikaChef]

Hmm...
How about giving Sawnik a higher priority moveset in general? And possibly make the fsmash slightly faster? =D

[Ellio 2 b]

Hmm...
How about giving Sawnik a higher priority moveset in general? And possibly make the fsmash [waay] slightly faster? =D


*Spins fist so fast It's a blur*

WHOOOSH - GO!

That would be broken.