ImpactAR Matches!

[ImpactAR]

It's been a while since I've recorded or posted up any vids. Here's some recent friendlies.

It's all TL vs Pit. Matches are in no particular order and are chosen by the ones I think were intense watch. Here they are!

Match A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buwtNs-9mFs

Match B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndbuhd5lzfk

Match C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFwdIG4SdJY

Match D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOKbLb0gA5E

Match E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlY5eEchsnw

Match F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYft2G8nHYw

Comments and criticisms are welcome. ENJOY!

[TheJerm]

I only watched 3 video's but here's what I have to say from those. It seems like you dont like toon links items? Cause you dont use them much. You was like 90% sword play, which is fine if thats your style, its just that you would need to actually space your sword much better. The Pit didnt seem to know how to punish it, but alot of people will. Also, even if you dont like to use items much, I suggest at least bow canceling. The nair to dair thing was wierd, and might work a couple of times, but it would also be punished hard. Try short hoping your nairs too. If I did those semi full hop nairs to the pits I play, they would be all up in my **** with arials =/ . Save your smashes too. That didnt seem like much of a problem, but I still saw some really early up smashes. I hope to see your style of mainly sword pay develop though, its interesting. You might end up being a more aggressive toon than me xD

[ImpactAR]

Thanks for the post. I can see your thoughts with the way I played, but I have a reason for all of what you said. The Pit player is a friend of mine where we play Brawl 3-4 times a week for 2-4 hours at a time. We know how to counter and punish each other so I develop patterns that are difficult to punish. So let me address some.

Items

Whether you believe it or not, Pit answer to TL is distance and the speed of the projectile. The reflector is just a plus. My friend realize the best way to deal with my projectiles is just to shoot his to interrupt me. I could end up taking the damage that I would of deal if I pull out a bomb and land it.

In this match up I need to be able to punish with the Nair or sudden surprise dash Nair. My projectile usage will depend on the character I play. This match up I feel it's limited. But I see your point here.

Spacing out Nair

Well, I have to say I don't understand how you suggesting I should space out Nair. I don't really see any time where I was punished because I didn't space my Nair.

I am iNairing and I think it's better than trying to aim for the tip of the sword. Two reasons. One, you need to attack before your opponent hence you should iNair. Spaced out or not you do the same damage. If you're close the Nair will actually hit twice. Since I Full Jump it, either way I can't be grabbed due to the height end.

Nair to Dair

You're not catching that most of the time you see this it lands, because my opponent was underneath me. I try to watch to make sure he is under me before I decide to Dair. Most of the time to prevent being punished upon landing. I'll bounce of the shield if he tries to shield grab with the chance of even poking through the shield.

Short Hop Nairs vs Full Jump Nairs

Short Hop Nair can be punished. A dash attack or hyphen smash can catch you as you land. Even if you arrow cancel the SH Nair the arrow will cancel out the dash attack animation, but not before the hit frame comes out on the dash attack. So you get hit anyways.

This is why I Full Jump Nair. I don't see how a Pit player have time to get up in your face with an aerial if you Full Jump Nair. You just have so too many options and time to set up a counter. It's not that the Pit player in the vid don't know how to punish it, but it's difficult to punish.

You have the first reaction so you have more time to react when you go in the air, while a Pit player starts off on the ground. You have another second jump, enough time to pull a bomb (hence iBomb), the Zair. You have great counter options. DI away. Poke them away with the Zair. Also why I Dair sometime afterward because I see he is trying to Dash Shield Grab me as I try to land.

The reason I Full Jump Nair is because I was being punished when I Short Hop Nair. I wrote a small guide about iNair a WHILE back, but people didn't want to read my analysis and tips. Plus it was pretty long. Santi can tell you. He didn't realize how fast and the punish-ability of the iNair until I first discussed it with him.

No offense, but I don't think you really tested how punishable or not the Nair is. Try out the Full Jump Nair. Trust me. When it comes to the Nair. I know what I'm talking about.

Early Up Smashes

I don't see how you see that I waste my Up Smash. If I do it really early than by the time I rack him up to KO range my Up Smash will be refreshed. If I do it once close to KO range, but not quite it's just one Up Smash so the power on that is still strong.

[TheJerm]

Ok, for one, a fresh non used upsmash > replinished upsmash. Fact. Nothing to argue about there.
Nair to arrow cancel not working because someone can dash attack or hyphen smash? No, it works if its done right. I understand what your talking about when you say you play your friend and you develop those patterns because he/she knows you so well. Thats the main reason I dont post vids against the people I play regularly. Most of those matches are decided on memorization. Also, what I got is that you let pit out camp you with his arrow, so you dont use your items? That shouldnt happen. You can fight a spammy pit with your items. As I said before, the pit your playing wasnt punishing you for some of your mistakes, like the bad spacing, but good ones will, trust me. That nair to dair thing would work a minimal amount of times with the people I play with. Its simply a mind game that you used too often, as if it was a for sure set up. Back to the full hop nair, if the pit would just shield the nair, right out of shield, any arial would get you. TL's fair is just too slow and your already above them going upwards. Even if you dair, they'll catch on and just wait. A short hop nair cant be as easily punished and you have alot more options after the attack.

Watch.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSxxR8uilR0

[ImpactAR]

What mistakes are you talking about? You're claiming bad spacing and no punishes, but you disagree with that.

You're off with the FJ Nair vs SH Nair. You're basically claiming SH has more DI than FJ, but that's not right. You're DI the same amount away, but a FJ will give you more height making it more difficult to punish. If you're saying Pit can aerial out of a shield against a FJ Nair than the same can be applied to SH Nair. If anything a SH Nair would be more likely to be punished by a OoS Aerial than a FJ Nair.

Some of your tactics are good. Some are even old tactics I've used. Zair can be Shield Dash Grab/Jab. SH Nair could be punished with QDA or Hyphen Smash out of shield. Your friend doesn't even do it and you're telling me you can. I'm saying you can. The arrow WILL stop the attack animation BUT not before the hit frame comes out and connects. The patterns you see me do now is more effective.

You're insinuating that this Pit is bad by saying "the good ones" will punish me. All I'm going to have to say this is he is good. Don't be assuming he's bad.

In the video you sent me you could of been punished when you Zair with Dash Shield Grab or Dash Shield Jab. You're SH Nair could of been punished by OoS QDA, OoS Hyphen Smash, or Dash Shield Grab. Trust me you can.

I'll agree with you that playing the people you know well makes both player play to a certain pattern.

I feel like we can't agree on this unless we both try each other suggestions. I'll tell you what, I'll tell my Pit friend to try to aerials OoS after my FJ Nair and see if he can land it. And you tell your friend to QDA, Hyphen Smash, and Dash Shield Grab out of shield when you SH Nair. You're friend can also punish your with the same right after a shielded Zair cause he'll catch your open landing frames. Then we'll talk about this more.

[TLMarth]

Often you don't actually AC back when you nair
I think...

[VietGeek]

Often you don't actually AC back when you nair
I think...

He says a perosn could just dash > PS it then punish.

I suggest if you do SH nair, buffer a jump and pull a bomb as part of a mix-up.

I actually have killed off my previous style for a more offensive style and fullhop aerials are great for spacing. Combine that with bomb zoning and Toon Link becomes difficult to challenge if you don't already have a superior disjoint to him (oh wait...). However, there's a time and place for everything. I'm still trying to kill the habit of trying to close-range boomerang for 11% + combo ability since its risk > rewards. =/

Haven't watched the matches but this is Ryan as in Ryanarius right?

[vbdood1337]

Ok, for one, a fresh non used upsmash > replinished upsmash. Fact. Nothing to argue about there.

Except for the fact that a fully refreshed upsmash = fresh non used upsmash. I just re-tested this and both upsmashes (used and non used, both fresh) killed at the same percentage. So feel free to upsmash early, there's no penalty as long as you use 9 moves in between the first upsmash and the (potential) killing upsmash.

I have to say the first thing I noticed was the lack of projectiles, but if that's how you play there's no problem in that.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Just a little thing: You can press down to cancel the chain and grab the edge faster (if your above the edge).
While a full hop Nair out of shield is less punishable, just SH. The Nair gets out faster (right?). I mean, YOUR punishing HIM. It should be fast enough for you to hit him, and not have to worry about defense at the time.

And idk. You don't use many projectiles. >_<
But its against Pit, so I guess I can see why.

[iRjOn]

Except for the fact that a fully refreshed upsmash = fresh non used upsmash. I just re-tested this and both upsmashes (used and non used, both fresh) killed at the same percentage. So feel free to upsmash early, there's no penalty as long as you use 9 moves in between the first upsmash and the (potential) killing upsmash.

I have to say the first thing I noticed was the lack of projectiles, but if that's how you play there's no problem in that.
Just because they kill at the same % dont mean they =
The lauch power is still less, not alot but enough to where at kill % theres a chance of DI.


Khai nice matches
But chill Jerms just giving advice.
Take it hes just giving ideas to help.
But I'll watch the last 2 and write my thoughts tomorrow.

[TheJerm]

Irjon handles vbdood's post, but yea, irjon is right. There's DI man

ImpactAR: I might have came off little harsh, but I'm actually not like that. Just wanted to tell you what I thought, its definitely fine to continue your play style. The pit might be good, but from what I saw, he was making alot of mistakes.

[ImpactAR]

TheJerm,

Alright I did some testing to prove my point. I came to my friend dorm just to test all of what we were disagreeing with. All these were done against Pit.

I stood right in front of him to perform these. He knows it's a Nair coming, will block, and try to react ASAP.

Short Hop Nair vs Full Jump Nair.

Short Hop Nair

It IS punishable by Dash Attack, as I stated. If he does it ASAP out of shield you can't even get the an Arrow Cancel out.

It possible to punish with Hyphen-Smash, though with Pit it's inconsistent because the dash range on his Hyphen-Smash depends on his foot placement. Like the Dash Attack, if the Hyphen-Smash has good timing on it and the dash range is right he can connect the hit before you get an arrow out.

Building off Vietgeek's advice about jumping after a SH Nair,

Your ONLY truly safe option after a shielded SH Nair is to immediately Second Jump as you DI back. This puts you out of the Dash Attack and Hyphen-Smash hit boxes. Pit was able to quickly dash up for some distance and FJ Fair me, so pulling out a bomb puts you in a little danger. Testing some more if you SJ Nair it you'll be able to hit him back before he gets the Fair out.

I want to say that doing what Vietgeek said about pulling SJ Bomb Pull away isn't a bad idea because it's very hard for your opponent in an actual match up to know you need to dash up and FJ Fair ASAP to punish. Thanks for the suggestion.

Full Jump Nair

I stood face to face with Pit and FJ iNair and he reacted after a shield as fast as he can with an aerial. There was obviously space between us before he can react to the Nair. He was ONLY able to punish me if I don't DI and stay near above his head. Even then could of used my Second Jump to get away. With "decent" DI he cannot immediately do any aerial out of the shield and land because I'll be at the peak of my jump and to the side. Full DI back he was not able to punish me with anything immediate.

If he is to punish he has to punish me as I land or chase me in the air in which I have the time to react and counter. Zair, Bomb Throw, Zair, Dair.

Vietgeek,

Yes my friend I play with so often is Ryanarius. I thought I told you that on another thread. Am I that easy to forget. Maybe if I told you I'm Vietnamese that will help make me more memorable. Hence the name "Khai." :)

[TheJerm]

Well, as I said, continue what your doing. I dont always go back to a quickdraw, but when I do, I only get punished if my opponent dashes, perfect shields, then does whatever out of shield. I have a feeling your doing it wrong, but whatever. This is getting nowhere, GL with your toon..

[ImpactAR]

No, no, no. You guys got me wrong. I'm not trying to be mean. IMO, TheJerm, I don't think your friend really explored how punishable the SH Nair so you don't you looked into FJ Nair, so you assuming SH Nair is safer when it's really the reverse.

I apologize if I came off as harsh. I take no offense to your comments, I'm just trying to let you know. I think it could help you out. Just try out the FJ Nair in some friendlies and maybe you'll see what I mean.

sasukebowser,

You know I know I can cancel the Zair tether, but it's always in the back of my head and I can never get it through my head to do that. I always comment negatively at Nintendo instead for the design instead of tapping down, lol. Thanks for reminding me of this. You're right when I punish him with a Nair I don't really need to Full Jump. I do it just in case I mistimed the iNair or he gets a lucky power shield in and it became an instinct.

I don't know. Maybe Ryan and I will find time to go to Waba and have Vietgeek play Ryan in a TL vs Pit and have his reaction on it. :P

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

I forget stuff like that too sometimes. Its okay. ^_^;
And no problemo.


Say hi to Viet for me. =P

[vanderzant]

Nice TL, but if you are going to full jump nair be careful about landing on top of your opponent with a bair or whatever because they have enough time to shield grab or dodge -> smash.

And regarding the SH nair vs FH nair debate:

If you connect with nair, a SH is preferable because you have more follow up options that can be executed in quick succesion (i.e quickdraw)

If nair does not connect (regardless whetehr you are approaching or retreating), then FH is obviously less punishable because you can move more.

So I guess sh works better if you can get it to connect, but if you're just blindly throwing out moves then FH will help you not get punished. Mix them up I guess =)

[ImpactAR]

Yeah... I guess I should work on recognizing when to SH Nair or FH Nair. SH Nair for sure-fire punishes for the options for follow ups. FJ Nair for pokes, pressure, and counters.

As for projectiles, I do limit my use against Pit. I'll use them more or less depending on the character. Just for this match up I felt it's more effective to be ready to Dash iNair most of the time.

Being punished upon landing is what I felt I was punished most for. You're right, a landing Bair or Nair or Zair isn't going to protect you from someone who is set on Shield Grabbing you. I try to watch and make sure he's coming from under me or not and if he is I'll Dair him and hope for a connection or at least a shield bounce. However, iBomb works great for landings still working on making it instinctive.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

[QUIVO]

I watched two videos.
From what I saw, you need to mix it up more. You were mostly attacking with aerials, and it was kinda predictable or so it seemed for your opponent.

Full hop nair to dair was getting punished like 80% of the time.

You were spacing zair pretty well, but you never or rarely followed up. You were just poking at him with it.

[vbdood1337]

I just asked Colin and once a stale move has been refreshed it has the exact same launch force as a move that hasn't been used.

There are no magical stale move properties not covered in this document. If a move has been pushed out of the stale move queue then it is fully fresh again and the stale move multiplier will be 1.05 again.

So using you usmash is not a big deal if you know you are going to hit the opponent 9 or more times.

About the actual gameplay (sorry to get sidetracked), I agree you need to mix it up more. Arrow canceling some of your aerials might help and like quivo said, you're spacing your zair pretty well. Follow it with a iNair or something. Use a grounded spin attack. Anything. Almost your entire game is aerials, switch things up once in a while and I think you'll do better. Your dair was getting punished most of the time i remember you using it. Personally, I'd stay away from it, but if it works for you then go for it.

[vbdood1337]

wtf double post. my bad, stupid back arrow

[Alzi]

You can delete that post with the edit button but meh.

Needs more projectile use thats somthing i realised straight away. Try get in some other matches with other characters not just pit so we can judge more since pit can reflect your projectiles and you would have to play diffrently a little so seeing you vs diffrent characters would be great.

As you stated you didn't use them so much because it was a pit i can see what you mean just get diffrent vids up so we can see your projectile game aswell.

[ImpactAR]

Man there is some over exaggerating how much the Dair is getting punished. Do you guys have something against Dairs? LOL

Match A
2 Connects
1 Unpunish
2 Punished
5 Total

Unpunish 60%
Punish 40%

Match B
1 Bounce Safety
1 Total

Unpunish 100%
Punish 0%

Match C
1 Connects
1 Bounce Safety
1 Unpunished
1 Punished
4 Total

Unpunish 75%
Punish 25%

Match D
6 Connects
6 Total

Unpunish 100%
Punish 0%

Match E
2 Punish
2 Total

Unpunish 0%
Punish 100%

Match F
1 connects
1 Unpunish
2 Total

Unpunish 100%
Punish 0%

I guess I can't really say much about the projectile use and mix up. I guess I'll need to get other vids versus other characters for that.

Thanks for all the comment so far. :)

[iRjOn]

ight vbdood idc anymore my points valid...from my expreince

Now Khai
This is my advice to you
Dair is ok sometimes but dont abuse it I use it sometimes but if your opponet would have thought Pit has an arrow free hit forget the push back
:\

I understand the reason you dont use projectiles against him that much.
But dont think OMG my opponet has a reflector I cant use projectiles...even though you may not think that exactly you know?
Still thats wrong wanna know what you cant do?
Projectile wall them.
That means just use angled rangs, bow cancels, and bombs.
Now that dont mean abuse them either.
Bow cancels should be when opponet least expect them like after a bomb pull SH BP>BC
or probally reverseBC but still.
Oh and did you know retreating nair>BC is safer than dair?
;D
Anywho
Your zair spacing was good but no follow ups
XD
Just poking sometimes you'd follow up with a bomb throw. Nearly everytime you zair you can follow up.
Pit has no answers for zair except (power)shield and attemp to punish.But think its laggless you can do anything.
:]
Try using it alittle more to cancel your airdodges. Still though dont over use it.

Oh back to bow cancel from retreating nair real quick if you bow cancel a Hyphen smash cant punish you for being shielded because they would hyphen into an arrow...
But still it is punishable and shouldn't be abusused but used to mix it up.
But again projectiles when I get back from school I will write up some ways to apply them against reflector users.
I love you utilt spam, I spam it more beautiful damage racker and bair chain ender.

I'll add more when i get back let you think about this part atm.
:]
No aggression expressed just kind words.

[QUIVO]

In the game on battlefield, he only missed an opportunity once and I remember there being like five dairs.

I use dair a bit, but it's like you're just throwing it out there.

[Alzi]

Do Dair once or twice every match only if you know it will hit. For online matches i woudn't do it too much since your opponent would of predicted it by then. ImpactAR in a few weeks time i see you playing well after all this advice then try and post some more vids so we can see how much you have improved and any other mistakes you are doing.

Speaking of which i need to try and get some vids of my toon link.

[TLMarth]

He says a perosn could just dash > PS it then punish.

I suggest if you do SH nair, buffer a jump and pull a bomb as part of a mix-up.

I actually have killed off my previous style for a more offensive style and fullhop aerials are great for spacing. Combine that with bomb zoning and Toon Link becomes difficult to challenge if you don't already have a superior disjoint to him (oh wait...). However, there's a time and place for everything. I'm still trying to kill the habit of trying to close-range boomerang for 11% + combo ability since its risk > rewards. =/

Haven't watched the matches but this is Ryan as in Ryanarius right?

No, I mean he says that Full Hop nair lets you Air Control more, but he doesn't actually go away that much.

Additionally, and I'm on insecure ground here, wouldn't it be better to SH Nair, AC away, then be on the ground to do whatever avoiding than to FH nair, and AC away in the air?

Also, dair is really predictable, I'm sure you've had more matches than those you've posted.

[VietGeek]

TLMarth you kinda take everything too literally or always in context. This is the Internet lol.

FH nair gives you more air control and he wants that over sh nair to whatever "amazing" retreat method you use since you're naturally given more options on a fullhop. While he said they could just shield nair and then dash attack at you if you SH, if you arrow cancel, it's the same deal. ACs are not that great anymore.

Also I never even implied that you should FH nair then AC. That's dumb and doesn't cover you at all. except in front but arrow cancels have pretty horrible priority.

[iRjOn]

TLMarth you kinda take everything too literally or always in context. This is the Internet lol.

FH nair gives you more air control and he wants that over sh nair to whatever "amazing" retreat method you use since you're naturally given more options on a fullhop. While he said they could just shield nair and then dash attack at you if you SH, if you arrow cancel, it's the same deal. ACs are not that great anymore.

Also I never even implied that you should FH nair then AC. That's dumb and doesn't cover you at all. except in front but arrow cancels have pretty horrible priority.
Since when aren't Bow cancel's that great?
XD

[ImpactAR]

I think Vietgeek summed it up the best. Full Jump Nair gives you more Air Control AND more options to counter than the Short Hop Nair AND more distance.

You cannot do anything after a Short Hop Nair other than Arrow Cancel or Second Jump (with a command if wanted). You need to land if you decide not to SJ or AC before you can do anything so there is a small window where you need to land that can be punished. An Arrow Cancel is not fast enough to interrupt your opponent's Dash Attack if your opponent OoS to a decent degree.

FJ Nair options are DI with more distance, SJ, Bomb Pull to Bomb Throw or iBomb, Dodge cancel-able with Zair, Dair, and even Bair or Nair upon landing.

Technically you can be near always safe with SH Nair if you see you failed to connect and DI and SJ away. So then after the SJ you're left with the same options as the FJ Nair except missing the SJ. This is probably the most balanced between options and risks because then you have guard plans if you missed and follow options if you connect. Vietgeek was the only one that suggested anything close to this.

For those who keep saying otherwise about SH vs FJ Nair TEST it out before you keep on claiming the same old stuff. I told you what I found to work and not with the SH or FH Nairs, you say otherwise, I tested that same day, I found what I said to be consistent, and some of you just keep on claiming the same thing saying "I" did something wrong.

I'm the one who pointed how fast TL's Nair was when a majority was stuck on how "godly' the TL's Bair was. I wrote a guide about Nair (that no one seem to read) saying stuff like how the Dash iNair is your fastest quick-distance combat attack second in power to a Hyphen Smash. How an OoS iNair is the second fastest (tied with Bair) OoS move, first being jabs. Please understand that I know what talking about with the options with the Nair.

I may sound harsh about this, but know that I'm just telling you what's up because I want everyone go be on the right track. I'm not saying you need to play like me, but you need to know what your strengths really are and what your weaknesses really are.

Since I'm talking about the FJ Nair, RYAN! has been able to find a way around it. Or should I say before it. He'll jump back and Fair so I'll run into the attack. The thing about this is he leaves himself open for a hyphen smash.

However, this brings up the point about I shouldn't be predicable with the FJ Nair, because if expected it can be punished. In the case of the FJ Nair, I can't be consistently and effectively punished afterward, but a player could predict it before and strike it as I'm coming.

I think you some of you guys are a bit to hung up on the Dairs. I think it's because I picked the first match because of the ending and and I hapeen to use a couple of Dairs. But Dairs isn't as bad as you think it is. I use to think it's a bad move and in all honesty I rather it be the regular ol' controlled attack, but all that's changed is you have to pin-point your attack better with it.

I agree that there should be a few more mix up. More (good) use of projectiles. Other than that be more careful of when I attack. Not to really cease it. That's me I guess.