Toon Links lack of the rest of the triforce.

[iRjOn]

Ok listen up SERIOUS topic no joke.

Nearly ever character boards talk about their weakness.
We have yet to do this

So unless you seriously have ideas or know dont post.
Lets disscuss Toon Links missing peices of the triforce.

So now let us begin

GOGOGO!!! I'll post my thoughts later.


Update:

Ok so far most peple have stated the following

-Grab game
-Unsafe Kill moves
- Light wieght
- Might add to the Weak spot Below him a few people have aruged that he does but I say neh. Because in none of his match ups does it say hes easily juggled.
- roll is slow and punishable.(We aint got nothin on G&W tho XD...)

these are the ones said the most.
if you find some that i didn't notice then plz point them out
:D

Weakness:

- Weak spot
it olimar's up b direction in front of him.
Not many people stated this but come on.
No one can say this is not true and succed in proving their point, unless they find some tatic that revamps Toon Links Meta cause its just nothing you can do to someone that is there with quick attacks *coughcoughMKcoughcoughMarthcough* dang i gotta get rid of that cough O.o

- Grab game
He has close to no follow ups
Damage is wimpy
No true combo leads from throws.
Extremely punishable if missed.
Only uses are common grab uses and grab releases.

- come on guys whatelse do we all agree on?

[iRjOn]

Reserved for meh
:D

[Hyro]

I could've sworn we've done this a ton of times...

Defense

- Toon Link's roll is ridiculously bad. I seem to always get punished no matter where I roll since it's so slow, so I just don't do it. Rolling seems extremley useful at a higher level and I can use it on pro smashers...if I don't pick Toon Link.

- Grabbing. Pretty slow grab. And if you miss it, there's no way you won't get punished.


Offense

- Predictable...like...it mainly consists of zairs and projectiles...but when I play Lee he powershields...everything...it's like so obvious what comes next even though I'm doing random *** ****.

- Killing potential. I hear a lot of toons have trouble with this. Doesn't really bother me that much...defense is worse.

[vanderzant]

There was a really good thread ages ago on this exact topic... I'll find it =)

EDIT: I think it was thachene who made the thread but I can't find it..

[oOJaseOo]

Errrm theres his blind spot i supose but that shouldnt be a problem on the move

Errrm he can have priority issues

getting the kill but then you just gotta be patient and pradict it

aww god srry guys i know im being vauge but im nakered

erm getting chain grabbed could be but you just gotta have a bomb out

his grab game

iv noticed that with faster characters camping is hard

light weight

some laggy moves (fsmash, fair etc)

gets shield grabbed easy

thats about all i can think of atm i know its not exactly ground breaking S*** but yea

[VietGeek]

Iron I have ADD instances every now and then but even I know this has been talked to death numerous times. <_<

EXTREMELY SIMPLIFIED VERSION -

- Sucks at killing
- Lackluster range for a sword
- Slow projectiles with little priority (sans bombs and charged arrows). Don't BS me with slow projectiles being better walls, slow projectiles means it's easier to swat them away as well as PS them.
- Weakspot below and sightly above (and I mean slightly since this is only an issue if for some reason you're airborne).

- Grabs have dumb lag to range ratio. Plus his throws aren't even that amazing, compared to some others anyway.

- Predictable recovery.

-No safe kill moves.

See, the fact that he's naturally bad at killing AND the fact that all his kill moves are unsafe is why he will never rise beyond mid-high tier.

[iRjOn]

It mighta been made
I think H_R talked about it but I need it in updated form.
I am going to incorrperate this into my guide giving ppl credit yada yada ya bleh
:D
So talk away
I'm still thinking.
Good points so far guys.

[Shadow Moth]

Very light?
How did no one think of that?
Lessee here:
-Smashes aren't powerful enough to use them as a major part of your game without sacrificing much of your killing potential.
-Only one major recover option (if you can tether the edge, you should be close enough to the stage to do something better with that airtime)
-Not a very good OoS game (main reason why I haven't bothered to try and get one yet).

Viet, Nair is safe.

[sasukebowser]

Crappy character design.
Oh wait, regular Link took all that.


Kill moves are hard to land.
Not-safe spike
Nair is the closest thing to a gimp move (AKA, go gimp moves).

CHARGED ARROWS SHOULD BE USED FOR GIMPING

[VietGeek]

Viet, Nair is safe.

Gimp move, not conventionally considered a kill move. Not enough base knockback.

Lightness isn't much of a problem.

TL is HEAVIER than F*CKING MARTH. I DON'T THINK WEIGHT IS AN ISSUE W/ TL.

[Shadow Moth]

I kill with it occasionally. I kill with fair much more though. Besides, it doesn't matter how you kill them as long as they lose a stock.

[VietGeek]

I kill with it occasionally. I kill with fair much more though. Besides, it doesn't matter how you kill them as long as they lose a stock.

If we used that logic everything can be a kill move...

-_-

If Sheik players had that mentality, they would be a better character than TL.

[sasukebowser]

The first hit of Fsmash can't be a kill move. =P

I killed someone I was playing in friendlies with Dtilt once.
You can only imagine how much I was laughing on the inside.

LMFAO!
I was playing this Peach and she pulled out a bomb-omb. She was going to throw it at me while I was recovering, but I thew a boomerang out and it stopped right in front of her. She threw the bomb and it exploded in her face. xDDD
I had to pause and laugh.



>_>
......
/random story.

[VietGeek]

The first hit of Fsmash can't be a kill move. =P

Force spacie to recovery onto stage, fsmash at ledge.

stuns them like sexy Dancing Blade 1.

PREDICTED.

EDGEHOG FOR PROFIT.

Yeah...I need food.

[Kinzer]

I hope you're discussing your weaknesses and how to overcome them, because it does no good if you don't use the knowledge.

P.S. Toon Link, bad?

His board makes him too good for crap like that.

[sasukebowser]

Kinzers a cool guy.


Who cares if TL is light weight?
It allows him to not fall victim of most combos.

And with his really good DI, it doesn't mean hes going to get killed very soon.
So yeahz.

Marths and anorexic *****.
>_>

[Shadow Moth]

I thought only girls could be anorexics.
Oh wait...

TL can't crawl =P
Probably a weakness but I don't see how.

Sasuke post twice more and you'll have 5,555 posts!

[sasukebowser]

TL should be able to crawl imho.
He could in Windwaker!!!


And no, this is my last post.

[VietGeek]

Marths and anorexic *****.
>_>

Firefox 9.9 and Meta Knight 1.0 Beta both used Bowflex.

[Hyro]

Crappy character design.
Oh wait, regular Link took all that.


Kill moves are hard to land.
Not-safe spike
Nair is the closest thing to a gimp move (AKA, go gimp moves).

CHARGED ARROWS SHOULD BE USED FOR GIMPING

Lolwut? Use zair as a gimp move. You'll hit them before they airdodge almost guranteed and the fact that it is weak is amazing. A nair will sometimes send them upwards a little...a zair will strip them of their double jump and send them SLIGHTLY down+back. IMO, Toon Link's zair would gimp better than Samus and Link's since it's so weak.

[iRjOn]

Nice points guys

Kinzer
Sup
:D

Yea I'm going to disscuss ways around it/them frist we all must agree on it/them I'll start listing the most said in the OP

But yea Moth Light wieght isn't that bad *looks at MK* >_>


SASUKE keep that 4 at the end 4 is great!
:]
44444444!


OK for real from this post on guys serious iron boots no joke
But occational ones are kool
*looks back at Sasuke and VG* ^_^ funny lol

OMG iron boots!
I loved these!!!!
I must find a pic and have iron on it has my nick name in it
:D

iron boots <3

[SSD]

I find that his recovery is rather slow and predictable, despite it's fairly good range.

edit: fixed broken grammar

[DCStyle]

Lack of a grab combo.

[rebd121]

I don't see that TL lacks killmoves, but I play a more projectile-centered game than I've seen any other TL play play, so I dunno.

[ImpactAR]

Short Range with Weak Stun on his attacks makes it difficult for TL to have inescapable combos. For example: SH Bair, Bair. You can be interrupted between the Bairs by decent speed attacks. A jab is enough, but you have to be careful with characters that have quick powerful tilts, smashes, or aerials.

TL's Down Smash and Up Smash has the speed and power to KO with his smashes, but again the lack or range makes it difficult to punish. At least the Up Smash is dashable allowing him some punishing options.

Weak aerial KO ability. Uair and Fair are good KO moves, but are slow to come up and difficult to set up.

TL is a fast character "moving" character. TL can't actually attack that fast. His fastest attack are his Jabs, Nair, and Bair which all connect at frame 6. While some other characters have some moves that comes out at lower frames. Some even have kill moves that come out faster than TL's fastest attack.

Other obvious properties were already named. Poor grab game, short and punishable rolls, light weight.

IMHO, sasukebowser, with all the DI and the physics of the game it's hard to combo anyone to oblivion. DDD and DK are easy to combo because of their size. Not so much because of their weight.

[iRjOn]

Khai good point but uair isnt slow
lol its far from it
just stays out long

[oOJaseOo]

hey iron wouldnt it be a good idea to ask some of the other boards wat they think for example the ones that own us (in some respect) cause they may know wat they can take advantage of with there moves where as we only rlly know our moves only a thought (tho it might kinda turn into just a general matchup guide in a way =S)

[ImpactAR]

iRjOn,

You're right about the Uair. It has fairly good speed, but still hard to difficult to set up.

Adding to the grab weakness. TL has horrible KO power with his throws. My friend pointed out that when he's in killing range he tries to keep to shielding and avoid dodging and rolling to close. It's overall safer because he knows TL can't kill him with a throw and he'll have a safer guard against attacks, but with dodges and rolls have small time frames of vulnerability where an Usmash or Utilt can possibly connect.

Another sort of weakness is TL weakness when in the air. He's fairly weak when it comes to attacking directly below him. Hence why you should throw a bomb down when you have the height to do so, so that it makes it difficult for your opponent to come up from below you or punish you when you land. I think sasukebowser was the first one to recommend to DI to the side and away and go for the edge if you have the chance. CaliburChamp discovering the iBomb also aids in landing safely. Don't know if you would want say it's a weakness since TL has options.

[TLMarth]

No glide toss.

Lacks triforce of power.

What if we owned the opponent with uber 1337 camping skills so much that their percentage was so high when ours was so low that a bair killed them?##

He is a solid character with no cheap moves. I guess it's more fun that way.

[ImpactAR]

TL being a good, balanced character is what makes him NOT high tier, LOL. Fighting games are difficult to balanced out, but in the end the ones with exploitable properties/moves/tactics are going to be the "better" characters. ::sigh:: Maybe if TL sword was longer so he can swat his opponents away from his head.

[iRjOn]

Bair kills at 140ish%...
Its not that much damage need but still too much.
Khai true stuff again all I can say to that is atleast we aren't like Marth
:\
Our dair is some what useful.


Hmmm Jase that is a good Idea...
It might just be a great idea.

[TLMarth]

Marth = less SD when attempting to spike?

We have serious weakness from below though.

[iRjOn]

TLMarth No we dont Marth does we dont we can do stuff
Marths Options for below < Toon Links options for below

Our options aren't the greatest but good enough to where you shouldn't have a prob getting back to the ground...

[Zorro.cL]

grab
lack of grab+combos
priority

[iRjOn]

You guys really think Toon Link has Priority issues?
I mean not compared to MK and Snake and GnW of course everyone has priority issues against them excluding them selves

[oOJaseOo]

Hmmm Jase that is a good Idea...
It might just be a great idea.

Woooo we got a break through peeps i had a good/might be great idea!!!!!! ;)

i only rlly say priority issues cause i find characters like captain falcon and lucas stop alot of my moves head on so i have to resort to camping and mindgames but then saying all that theres nothing a good bomb cant stop(unless its got invinci frames *cough**wario fsmash**cough**broken**cough**cough*)

[TLMarth]

Well we do have bombs...

[ImpactAR]

It's not really "priority." It's range and attack speed. Priority on ground melee attacks are based on when your attacks hits/connects. That's why it's possible a jab can cancel out a smash because hit frame clashes. So say you're playing against Snake.

For example, if you as TL jab and Snake does whatever and the frames clash, Snake can beat you out on the next attack with his Jab or Ftilt before TL's fastest move the jab. That's because TL's jab hits on frame 6 while Snake's Jab hits on frame 3 and his Ftilt hits on frame 4.

I think aerials and projectiles actually have weak, medium, and strong priorities like good ol' Melee. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't see lack of a glide toss as a weakness. He has a good dash/fox trot that makes his JCT good that makes up for the lack of a glide toss. Then again, something that doesn't have a tripping chance would of been nice.

Here's another issue up for debate. His Dair. Good or bad? IMO, the lack of the dive would of made the Dair VERY useful. You can hover it in dodgers, it would of been ideal to edge guard with it, and with control over it's DI would of given some combo ending opportunities. The dive limits it's option and increase the risk dramatically. The wind property in it is a nice effect, but overall it doesn't seem to have much effect if your opponent is moving. It would of been much nicer to have a impact hit when he slams into the ground like G&W's Dair.

Just imagine if it didn't have the dive property. It would of been a great mind game to get close to someone SH Dair and hover it at them. If they block you'll bounce, if they dodge they'll come right back into it. That's was one of the tricks I did in Melee...

Since we're on the topic of what TL's weaknesses are, maybe we should talk about playing by his strengths.

[oOJaseOo]

I acctually think dair is an awesome attack cause if you land it as a spike who ever you spiked cant john about it saying its "cheap"

and the wind when you land is very useful in some situations i managed to gimp a ness when he tryed to kill me at high % with his up b head tackle doodle we were near the edge and he kinda got it so he was slideing along he woulda been ok and stopped perfectly at the edge but i jumped over daired and the wind pushed him off out of range of the edge to grab in and just free falled to his 40% death was well chufed ^^

[copacetic]

Not a weakness by himself, but if you're playing doubles and you're partner is in a fall special off the edge you have very few options, since:
-TL is usually too floaty to reach them in time
-To use b-air you need to be below them to hit up
-u-air can kill and has too much lag
-d-air works best but is risky (you bounce, they go up, and it's fairly fast)
-It takes too much time to get out a bomb, and nothing else will be of help

And as far as gimp moves go, if you space a b-air or f-air right it'll send the opponent slightly below the horizontal away from the stage, which is harder than with n-air but better imo