Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #29 - Samus

[VietGeek]

:samus: Samus :samus:


http://fc29.deviantart.com/fs15/f/2007/111/6/7/snake_x_samus___the_beggining_by_Parthena.png
Ratio: 60:40 Toon Link

Synopsis:
Coming like...when you believe.

Onward!

[TLMarth]

Has teh horrible vertical KO power, if my sources are correct...

[iRjOn]

Has teh horrible vertical KO power, if my sources are correct...
dtilt says hello

[Santi]

Dtilt is the main KO move I think.

There's no reason you shouldn't be living over 200% each stock in this matchup, unless you're playing a gay stage.


We should get Xyro over here.

[TLMarth]

OK....

Compared to other characters' upsmashes, how powerful is Dtilt?

[TLMSheikant]

Stay away from her and camp her very gay. Dont challenge her zair. She has more trouble killing u than u to her. Her kill moves are slow, predictable and unreliable. :S If Samus tries to camp u (bad idea but some still try) just spam SHDA, it cancels missiles and one will hit her. Stay away from her uair to upB its sexy. Be careful of her dair its actually good. I say 65:35 or 60:40 Toon Link just because she has more trouble killing, approaching and cant camp us as a solution.

[VietGeek]

If you SHDA can't she just Charge Shot you in your lag? <_<

[TLMSheikant]

No way VG. You shouldnt be letting her charge it anyway. And if she does I think theres still time to react. SHDAs doesnt lag that much :S. Remember we have our natural shield ;) too.

[Artmastercorey]

I actually played an annoying Samus today...All she did was run away from me the whole round and shoot missiles. I eventually just full hoped high into the air over her spam and threw bomb after bomb at her while she was trying to spam me, but do u really think short hop arrows really are the solution? It seemed like her spam was better on ground.

[TLMSheikant]

Well from experience SHDAs break through her spam. I actually played a good samus at a tourney it was annoying when I was at close range. But if he tried to camp, I owned him everytime. Bombs from above also work well.

Samus's advantages:
* Longer zair.
* Good combo potential.
* A lot of range on some of her moves.
* Good recovery that's practically ungimpable by Tink.

Toon Link's advantages:
* Better and more varied camping game.
* Good combo potential too.
* Less trouble killing.
* Better aerials overall.
* Has more mobility while camping.
* Has a somewhat good recovery.
* Has more power in his kill moves.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Her Up-B OOC is really fast, so space well with your attacks so they hit by like, the tip of the sword.
Her Zair is much longer then yours, so don't try to go toe-to-toe with Zairs.
Samus can't kill very well. Her only vertical kill move is actually her Dtilt. So if you think you can avoid that move (its not that hard to avoid), then you should counter pick stages with small vertical blast zones and big horizontal ones.
Bombs kill charge shot. And while you can shield the charge shot, just letting go of shield before it hits you can also work very well.

DON'T GET SPIKED.

All I can remember right now.

[Throwback]

TL wins the missile fight, so Samus has to approach on this one. Once she gets in range, TL beats her in priority & kill power, but has similar range and some lag after his moves. Aerial game is TL's favour. 70-30 TL imo.

[TLMSheikant]

No way its not 70:30 its not that horrible. O_O 65:35.

[Bomber7]

well the last tourny I went to I played this guy from Texas named Xyro. I know Santi may know him. Anyway I still say TL has the overall advantage but when it comes to Zair, if you go against Xyro, you will get Zair raped. He's, to me, a H_R Samus, they both Zair like pros and do some damage.

[Dryn]

I actually played an annoying Samus today...All she did was run away from me the whole round and shoot missiles. I eventually just full hoped high into the air over her spam and threw bomb after bomb at her while she was trying to spam me, but do u really think short hop arrows really are the solution? It seemed like her spam was better on ground.

Was this online at Tip C's T3 online tournament? :p Never mind that. I brawled with a Toon Link today and spammed the heck out of him. I don't think he was able to take it, because he ended up suiciding himself on his last stock, while I had two stocks intact. Then again, his Toon Link wasn't good.

65-35? I think that's a bit much there. I did brawl with a good Toon Link who calls himself ikonyami. His arrow to u-smash was something I knew he was going to use to kill me, because he used that each time to beat me.

About killing problems for Samus, Toon Link is light, but his recovery is better than Link's, I'll give you that. Sorry if I don't have much to offer. I prefer doing in-game experience to collect information.

[Undrdog]

I don't like Toon Link in this match-up at all. The only thing he really has going for him against Samus is that he's short. However I don't intend on backing this up through discussion or debate because I'm lazy like that. ^_^

[Jasona]

get a charge blast, spam missles, wait for TLink to attempt to spam back, then fire charge blast through all of his projectiles. that doesn't even include her zair in the spam. as long as samus has a charge blast, there is no reason to fear losing a spam war
he doesn't have much range, so her shuffled zair works well against him
he is a small guy, so her shuffled dairs, with the emphasis on their horizontal range, work well against him
he falls into all of her combos
his recovery is gimpable. since his up+b attacks from the sides, samus can dangle with her grapple and not worry. he doesn't have any moves that get him horizontal distance while falling, so a sweetspotted zair even with the stage will gimp him
his SH double aerial thingy is counterable with a jab from the shield, unless he is spaced well. then you just shield and walk away or jump back and shuffle a zair or, my personal favorite, shoot him with a hidden charge blast

however, he is fast and has decent kill moves, so i'd say he has the advantage

[Royta]

Never really did this matchup, but just my cash thrown in here (get it, cash, 5 cents, so funny...har..har)

Anyway:

Toonlink is small which makes hitting him with our Zair a little annoying, not hard but just annoying. You win hard in the camping battle so we'll have to approach..which..isn't all that good.
You can expect Samus to throw a homing missile in while approaching with a Zair or dashattack->upB to rack up damage.
Racking damage is something Samus is fairly good at since all her aerials auto-cancel, so expect some dare I say....'combo's' to rack your percentage up.

Now killing is where it's at, and Samus has but a few options. Dtilt will usually be reserved so that it stays fresh, since it's her main (or atleast most viable) killing move.
It kills Tlink around ~120%, but good DI might increase that number. Also watch out of Nair or Zair hits while recovering, they could push you far away enough while you're recovering. Nair mostly since it has a lingering hitbox.
Also on stages like FD some samus's like to drop down from the edge and walljump via the lip. This sets up nicely for missiles and / or Bair's, and the Bair DOES kill early xD

Stagewise I really have no idea, FD seems kinda safe I guess;p

[Xyro77]

Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #29 - Samus

i will comment on this match up later tonight when im back from eating.

Ive played Santi(tx) and Hyrulian Royalty(La) and Jerm(tx). All of them play very different from each other so i think i have a decent idea as to what to do and what to NOT to. and sadly.......what to watch out for.

TL is a *****!

anyways, ill be back to explain

[Bomber7]

i will comment on this match up later tonight when im back from eating.

Ive played Santi(tx) and Hyrulian Royalty(La) and Jerm(tx). All of them play very different from each other so i think i have a decent idea as to what to do and what to NOT to. and sadly.......what to watch out for.

TL is a *****!

anyways, ill be back to explain

lol even if I had gone TL at Dibbz I dont think it would have made a difference in our match. Your Zair skills kept cutting me short when I tried to jump. I was totally obliterated by our matches. It would be fun to fight you more often.

[Tosh]

Toon link has more reliable projectiles, better air game, easier to kill with and could probably out camp samus. Plus his recovery from what I can recall is probably a bit better and though Samus' is a good multi hit and would be difficult to edge guard.

[Bomber7]

Toon link has more reliable projectiles, better air game, easier to kill with and could probably out camp samus. Plus his recovery from what I can recall is probably a bit better and though Samus' is a good multi hit and would be difficult to edge guard.

well in the case of Xyro, NEVER, pick battle field.

[Dryn]

well in the case of Xyro [any skilled Samus main], NEVER, pick battle field.

I think that's more accurate. Battlefield is Samus' playground.

[Bomber7]

I think that's more accurate. Battlefield is Samus' playground.

I dont play any samuses but I'll just take your word.

[-Tempest-]

What would be a good CP to Samus, then? BF is my fallback from Lylat and Norfair... are either of those good?

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Lylat would be better imo.

[-Tempest-]

Lylat would be better imo.

Good to know. Thanks.

[Xyro77]

OK here goes.

First off lets get some things clear:

1. If the TL is MEGA MEGA campy(spammy) vs samus i think the match-up is 65-35(TL favor)
1a. santi(no offense)

2. If the TL is NOT a mega campy(spammy) vs samus i think the match up is 60-40(TL favor)
2a. Hyrulian Royalty and Jerm

3. For the record, samus can OUT SPAM toon link(in terms of speed) but toon links spam is BETTER(in terms of usefullness/effectiveness)
3a. Bombs stop samus charge shot(the one thing that eats thru TL arrows and boomrang)
3b. Throwing a boomrang BEHIND samus why continuing to spam normaly will forces samus at one point to stop and shield/dodge the returning boomrang. This throws off the flow of samus spam.

4. Power shielding TL links projectiles is easy(however, if the spam is spaced properly, u cant power shield ALL of it) which is good but TL can still fight man to man.
4a. Once you learn to power shield(or just stand there and let your hyrule shield block it) samus spam, you have decimated 80% of what makes samus good.......this is a VERY BAD THING FOR SAMUS!!!!!

5. When fighting face to face, samus loses BIG TIME. However, if the TL DOES NOT SPACE, us samus players get free UP+B(11-14%) out of shield. This may not seem like alot but if you cant space and we play on levels that have platforms, we will be getting MASSIVE amounts of damage from that UP+B out of shield. samus has jab and and d-tilts but its rare those will hit if both players are good. TL has more guarenteed hits than samus does. the ONE combo that works with 90% accuracy is falling up-air to d-smash(or f-smash)....but thats it. TL wins this one.

6. Samus KOs with d-tilts/f-smash/d-smash(on levels with low tops) and B-air. The foe has to be at 135%( i assume good DI) or more to be KOed with those moves. u-air and nair are worthless for KOs and U-tilt/f-tilts are way to risky for KOs. From what i see, toon link may or may not have alot of kill moves but his kill earlier than samus and in any case, this is key. TL wins this one

7. recovery, samus wins in this department. Our zair is MEGA MEGA long and we can bomb jump(its not as good as melee but it does help). We can spike the heck out of you guys(toon links up+b is mega easy to spike). But honestly, that situation wont come up often. samus wins this one

8. Size. Common sense, samus is HUGE compared to melee and huge compared to TL. bigger target raises chances of being hit more. size does matter, TL wins

9. Styles. This may not seem big but it is. TL has the ability to change styles DRASTICLY. Ive seen 3 different types in my time. santi hyrulian royalty and jerm. Samus is either spam style or spam style or if you really search the earth hard enough, you may find the style called spam style. TL wins.

10. Match-up experience. This may not seem like abig deal but it effects us all, even m2k(see snakeee vs m2k round one). If you have never fought a PRO samus and you cant adapt well, i assure you that you are 2x as likely to lose your first match. This is very handy for samus but it isnt a "OMG i will win this set" advantage.




Honestly, TL has a CLEAR advantage over samus( we all can agree on that) and thats not really gonna change. ok this is all that really sticks out for me right now. ill be back if anybody needs me. Bye guys and thanks for giving me the chance to post about this match-up.

[demonictoonlink]

Thanks for that summary ^^
Unfortunately, I completely ignored it to concentrate on your cleavage sig.
jk

[Xyro77]

Thanks for that summary ^^
Unfortunately, I completely ignored it to concentrate on your cleavage sig.
jk

at least u saw something of mine....lol

[-Tempest-]

OK here goes.

First off lets get some things clear:

1. If the TL is MEGA MEGA campy(spammy) vs samus i think the match-up is 65-35(TL favor)
1a. santi(no offense)

2. If the TL is NOT a mega campy(spammy) vs samus i think the match up is 60-40(TL favor)
2a. Hyrulian Royalty and Jerm

3. For the record, samus can OUT SPAM toon link(in terms of speed) but toon links spam is BETTER(in terms of usefullness/effectiveness)
3a. Bombs stop samus charge shot(the one thing that eats thru TL arrows and boomrang)
3b. Throwing a boomrang BEHIND samus why continuing to spam normaly will forces samus at one point to stop and shield/dodge the returning boomrang. This throws off the flow of samus spam.

4. Power shielding TL links projectiles is easy(however, if the spam is spaced properly, u cant power shield ALL of it) which is good but TL can still fight man to man.
4a. Once you learn to power shield(or just stand there and let your hyrule shield block it) samus spam, you have decimated 80% of what makes samus good.......this is a VERY BAD THING FOR SAMUS!!!!!

5. When fighting face to face, samus loses BIG TIME. However, if the TL DOES NOT SPACE, us samus players get free UP+B(11-14%) out of shield. This may not seem like alot but if you cant space and we play on levels that have platforms, we will be getting MASSIVE amounts of damage from that UP+B out of shield. samus has jab and and d-tilts but its rare those will hit if both players are good. TL has more guarenteed hits than samus does. the ONE combo that works with 90% accuracy is falling up-air to d-smash(or f-smash)....but thats it. TL wins this one.

6. Samus KOs with d-tilts/f-smash/d-smash(on levels with low tops) and B-air. The foe has to be at 135%( i assume good DI) or more to be KOed with those moves. u-air and nair are worthless for KOs and U-tilt/f-tilts are way to risky for KOs. From what i see, toon link may or may not have alot of kill moves but his kill earlier than samus and in any case, this is key. TL wins this one

7. recovery, samus wins in this department. Our zair is MEGA MEGA long and we can bomb jump(its not as good as melee but it does help). We can spike the heck out of you guys(toon links up+b is mega easy to spike). But honestly, that situation wont come up often. samus wins this one

8. Size. Common sense, samus is HUGE compared to melee and huge compared to TL. bigger target raises chances of being hit more. size does matter, TL wins

9. Styles. This may not seem big but it is. TL has the ability to change styles DRASTICLY. Ive seen 3 different types in my time. santi hyrulian royalty and jerm. Samus is either spam style or spam style or if you really search the earth hard enough, you may find the style called spam style. TL wins.

10. Match-up experience. This may not seem like abig deal but it effects us all, even m2k(see snakeee vs m2k round one). If you have never fought a PRO samus and you cant adapt well, i assure you that you are 2x as likely to lose your first match. This is very handy for samus but it isnt a "OMG i will win this set" advantage.




Honestly, TL has a CLEAR advantage over samus( we all can agree on that) and thats not really gonna change. ok this is all that really sticks out for me right now. ill be back if anybody needs me. Bye guys and thanks for giving me the chance to post about this match-up.

Very informative. I shall archive this information for mine own use now. Thanks Xyro.

[TheJerm]

Ok, so Ive played the only notable samus I know of in this world xyro. I'm sure there's more, but they cant be that much better.. hopefully =x...

To start, I say TL has the advantage. Mainly because, and simply put, we are both mid range charcters (kind of for samus) and we both might not have a problem racking up damage. We also both have the same problem, killing. The thing is, TL can kill easier than samus.

Most TL's play focusing around bair and zair. Samus's zair kind of rapes ours, so we mainly have to just use our zair as part of our approach and not something to keep our distance. So they win that battle, but we win the battle with our projectiles. Not by that much though. So its semi even when it comes to our ranged attacks.

Now we move in, and this is were TL gets the big advantage imo. With our beautiful master sword, we can put alot of hurt close up with bairs nairs (and jabs out of shields if you like to). All they can really do is jab to dtilt. Or maybe grab and try to throw us out. Which means, instead of camping this match, I feel we should just try and get in close.

So I says its a match up that either player can win, just comes down to the player. Just a little easier for us toons to come out on top. I'm gonna leave it at 60/40 TL
Me and xyro will try to get a match recorded.

[Xyro77]

Very informative. I shall archive this information for mine own use now. Thanks Xyro.

no problem. if you need anything else, let me know.

and yes, this friday i will record some matches vs jerm. i hope it goes well.

[-Tempest-]

no problem. if you need anything else, let me know.

and yes, this friday i will record some matches vs jerm. i hope it goes well.

Thanks, will do. Although, the opprotunity to play Samus here is rare indeed... Good to have information just in case though.

[Xyro77]

yes its rare but ive met SO many people who have never played a samus and also lose to me when in reality, they might be the better player. match-up exp is really important in this game.

[-Tempest-]

yes its rare but ive met SO many people who have never played a samus and also lose to me when in reality, they might be the better player. match-up exp is really important in this game.

You've got that right. It's hard to fight a match-up for the first time... I both do and don't look forward to playing you, Xyro.

[Drig786]

her rockets and Zair could be a problem :dizzy:

[Smith]

Samus' zair > Toon Link's

Dobombs beat samus' charged beams?

all our projectiles beat the missles..I think.

We have more a kill moves variety..

[Santi]

No offense taken Xyro :)
thanks for the good info on the matchup.

[Xyro77]

Samus' zair > Toon Link's

Dobombs beat samus' charged beams?

all our projectiles beat the missles..I think.

We have more a kill moves variety..

yes your bombs stop our charge shot.

most of your projectiles beat our missles. but what we tend to do is shoot a charge shot as u are pulling out a bomb or boomrang because you are stuck in the animation of pulling out an item.

oh also, a fully charge shot does 25-25%. its a tasty hit but it can reall only be used in that one situation.