Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #32 - Jigglypuff

[NeoCrono]

So no F-smash
watch out for F-air and DACUS at killing %
I still think we have the advantage cause we have more options then you as far as killing and racking up damage
but I could be wrong *shrugs*

[vanderzant]

Rest is safe for only 1 reason. Its speed and invincibility.

From what you are saying, it sounds like EVERYTIME jigglypuff uses rest you will connect and kill with it. i don't see how this could be thought to be true.

Even if there are certain situations when you can guarantee a hit (between our Fsmash, really laggy move) these are most likely extremely RARE and SITUATIONAL.

This allows it to literally interrupt multi hit moves. This means the opponent cannot shield it. Thats is when rest is safe.

The only moves of TL's that are multihit are his Fsmash (which a TL who knows ANYTHING about the matchup WILL NOT USE) and his Up-B which is used rarely and doesn't suck you in, so I don't see how you could get into a position for a "guaranteed" rest.

With such a small hitbox it should be very difficult to land, and with the nature of TL's gameplay as a jumpy/aerial character most attempts will probably miss and lead to a guaranteed smash attack of our choice.

Have a nice day

[Metatitan]

From what you are saying, it sounds like EVERYTIME jigglypuff uses rest you will connect and kill with it. i don't see how this could be thought to be true.

Even if there are certain situations when you can guarantee a hit (between our Fsmash, really laggy move) these are most likely extremely RARE and SITUATIONAL.



The only moves of TL's that are multihit are his Fsmash (which a TL who knows ANYTHING about the matchup WILL NOT USE) and his Up-B which is used rarely and doesn't suck you in, so I don't see how you could get into a position for a "guaranteed" rest.

With such a small hitbox it should be very difficult to land, and with the nature of TL's gameplay as a jumpy/aerial character most attempts will probably miss and lead to a guaranteed smash attack of our choice.

Have a nice day

the only jigglypuff users who can use rest as well as alex is describing are me and veril (until we see vids of other jiggs doing this of course). At no point did we ever say jigglypuff was even with toon link or that it was in her favor. It is toon link's favor but its not like zelda or falco where its 65:35. 60:40 toon link sounds just right.

Have a nice day ;o

[NeoCrono]

60:40 toon link sounds just right.

Have a nice day ;o

and we are done lol
that was.......difficult
And i will have a nice day lolz

[Metatitan]

finally a painless number ratio. the jiggs vs yoshi debates were so much more... painful

[MrEh]

From what you are saying, it sounds like EVERYTIME jigglypuff uses rest you will connect and kill with it. i don't see how this could be thought to be true.

Even if there are certain situations when you can guarantee a hit (between our Fsmash, really laggy move) these are most likely extremely RARE and SITUATIONAL.



The only moves of TL's that are multihit are his Fsmash (which a TL who knows ANYTHING about the matchup WILL NOT USE) and his Up-B which is used rarely and doesn't suck you in, so I don't see how you could get into a position for a "guaranteed" rest.
Poweshields lead into Rests.

Any attack that can be punished by Bowsers upB OoS can be punished with an OoS Rest. (PSed of course)

Rest punishes hard. If you factor in her jump, it comes out on like frame 8. There will be opportunities.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

Theres no way in hellz na Rest can hit TL out of a Nair.

[MrEh]

Theres no way in hellz na Rest can hit TL out of a Nair.
Technically she can, but that's not viable. Unless Veril figures out a way to do it. ^^

[iRjOn]

Ok frist you all are still not getting what a SAFE kill move is a SAFE kill move doesn't put your character at risk if missed.
Ok now look, Rest no matter how fast it comes out and skrew the invincibility. If I shield it You are on top of Toon Link and unable to move for 3 seconds. THAT IS UNSAFE!
You fair is outranged by our Usmash. We can usmash OoS, shield your fair punish after lagg. Even a properly spaced one can be punished with our Hyphen I believe.
It is unsafe when you must put yourself in the other characters kill area inorder to kill.
It doesn't matter how fast it is.
If its fast it has to have very low kool down.
Like MK's dsmash.
I'm sure you jiggs players know you wont hit with rest everytime.
This is why our fsmash is unsafe in this matchup. We basically setup you up for the kill.

Toon Links Kill Moves are only not Safe when he's out Ranged and has to put himself at risk F00ly. Thus why its hard to Kill Zelda, Marth, and such. If you believe MK vs TL is 45:55 your probally playing a bad MK that doesnt know how to abuse Toon Links weak spot.

[Sasuke the Sheik Main]

I should probably just play some Jiggz already and clear some things up. =P

[iRjOn]

Maybe then they'll get how unsafe it is for them to try and kill.
:(
Man I wish their logic was true...
Marth would no longer scare me
>:D

[Mothim]

I keep telling you guys, NAIR IS A SAFE KILL MOVE FOR TL.
In other news, Jiggs is light and TL is light. This means the game is going to be less aggressive on both sides. Bombs are essential, especially for escaping the wall of pain.

[vanderzant]

Rest punishes hard.

Offstage TL's dair punishes hard, but if we miss we lose a stock.

Same thing I guess?

the only jigglypuff users who can use rest as well as alex is describing are me and veril (until we see vids of other jiggs doing this of course)

*goes to look at vids of jigglypuff*

[Darktemplio]

Use lots of Nairs when Jiggly tries to leave the ground
A lot less Zairs
More Bairs and up tilts/up smashes
More angled boomerangs
Less arrows
Hold a bomb off stage.

The puff is pretty annoying and trust me, ive played really good ones.
50/50 IMO

And btw...this is a puff on roids....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anQHwBljiZk


.

[urdailywater]

Jiggs is light, for one. So it's kind of an advantage. The challenge is hitting her with projectiles.

Just make sure you keep projectiles out though.. that's all I do.. just so I don't get drill rested or hit. Either way.

I think it's close to even or probably just a little bit in tl's favor. Maybe in JIggs favor. It's a complicated match up.

How did I not post in this yet?

So yah, not sure what else to say. Bombs are important too. Bombs are always the root of all dmg though. :D

I've got nothin though. I don't play too many jiggs. I just usually play as jiggs. >.>

http://i43.tinypic.com/28hzu6o.jpg

[§teel]

toon link has a sword.

attack relentlessly.

[urdailywater]

toon link has a sword.

attack relentlessly.

What if we drop our sword?

It happened with Ganon, so there's no doubt it'll happen with Jiggs.

Besides, I have a extractable *****. I'll just slap everyone with it and win instantly.

[F00LY]

Toon Links Kill Moves are only not Safe when he's out Ranged and has to put himself at risk F00ly. Thus why its hard to Kill Zelda, Marth, and such. If you believe MK vs TL is 45:55 your probally playing a bad MK that doesnt know how to abuse Toon Links weak spot.

All right. The MKs I've played are just a mixture of the ones All Is Brawl, everywhere from the lowly nubs to the upper ranked ones. Yeah some of them suck, but I really do personally feel like we're no where near 30:70. I think MK is a helluva lot easier to deal with then the other two puffs when it comes to landing a hit. This isn't about MK though so back on topic...

I'm beginning to see some of the points now...I'm pushed more towards 45:55 / 50:50 after reading both sides of the forums. Again I'm no expert, I just really feel Jiggs has a lot more potential than we're giving her credit for here. Good stuff everyone.

BTW there any good tournament vids of Puffs vs TL floating around anywhere?

[EWING]

toon link has a sword.

attack relentlessly.

this is why its nowhere close to 50:50

[§teel]

this is why its nowhere close to 50:50

precisely what im getting at.

[RhedKing]

A decent tlink won't d-air from high above you, unless you're using a laggy move. Usually it's either combo'd with the bomb or a bit over your head if you give us a shot. One of the first and more important things to learn when maining tlink is to not d-air from on high.

Nah, I said if you get hit by the bomb, your eating a dair. Getting hit by a bomb is a perfect way to get setup for a dair. It works very well. Your best option is just to avoid a downward throw of the bomb altogether.

K thanks guys. :laugh:

I played some more TL yesterday. I'm kind thinking it's even again at 50:50 or maybe 45:55 for TL at best/worst. Also yeah I see the bomb dair thing, but I still kinda feel this is even
(or close to it)

[g-regulate]

i beat lobos

[NeoCrono]

I think it would be 45-55 TL if we play jiggs game
If we camp properly and pick when to attack and Z-air properly, its 60-40
In my experiences playing jiggly(I have a friend who darn near mains her)
if he seems to be getting a little too close I will Z-air, if he gets past that then he has a healthy helping of Nair coming his way.
We Toons can make a jigglypuff play our game more then you can make us play yours, if we limit your options on how you can approach and kill. Your not playing your game, you are playing ours

and G-regulate
did you and thumbs play DM and whoever at COT 4?

[Lobos]

i beat lobos

Nice. lol

10niceinsight

[Mothim]

Nair is our best option in the air because it's fast and because it hits on both sides.
If Jiggs is comin' at us in the air odds are (unless we're holding a bomb) we won't have time to do much more than nair or bair. I don't really include bair though, because if Jiggs is in the air with us, we're probably either FFing, uair-ing, or on the defense. TL can't turn around to quick in the air so bair is pretty much not an option except as an approach.

Use...
...A lot less Zairs
WTF u talkin' bout? Zair can beat your pound (that was just me BSing. Go test it NAO)

[VietGeek]

precisely what im getting at.

Way to go summarizing my previous posts with a one-liner.

You and Junk need to GTFO of my boards. <____<

But yeah, 60:40 will be fine.

Attack relentlessly yet intelligently. Not reckless aggro trying to chain bairs or something because you will get raped for your idiocy assuming the Jiggs player is decent.

*Amazed no one noticed what was wrong with Viet's Jigglypuff on the screenshot*

[iRjOn]

All right. The MKs I've played are just a mixture of the ones All Is Brawl, everywhere from the lowly nubs to the upper ranked ones. Yeah some of them suck, but I really do personally feel like we're no where near 30:70. I think MK is a helluva lot easier to deal with then the other two puffs when it comes to landing a hit. This isn't about MK though so back on topic...

I'm beginning to see some of the points now...I'm pushed more towards 45:55 / 50:50 after reading both sides of the forums. Again I'm no expert, I just really feel Jiggs has a lot more potential than we're giving her credit for here. Good stuff everyone.

BTW there any good tournament vids of Puffs vs TL floating around anywhere?
Wifi sucks.


Her potential is there but its not enough to stop our damage racking which ends up in her having 70% when we get to 60 or so if that. Then its her death time a charged usmash or a close to the edge fair, or our greatest aerial killer uair can poke her to her doom.
I'll post some kill combos in my guide it'll help you kill lighties better ok F00ly?
:)
But that doesn't mean the kill combos are absolute and will arise alot.
They are situational.

But its 60:40 Toon Link VG thats good
:)

A good Jiggs is still trouble.
Just a small disadvantage nothing big.
We aren't Marth lolz.

[g-regulate]

no but i money matched DM and beat him twice. rape

[iRjOn]

no but i money matched DM and beat him twice. rape
Gratz?

10microphonemarkersftw!

[Mothim]

Probably common knowledge but I'll put it out there: Jiggs pops out of the first hit of TL's Fsmash which nearly completely eliminates it as an anything against Jigglypuff.

[urdailywater]

*Amazed no one noticed what was wrong with Viet's Jigglypuff on the screenshot*

Isn't the sprite backwards. Meh.

Differences in XP gain and XP overall?

This is the spammiest discussion thread I've seen so far >.>

@Smoth.

That and from what I understand they can rest us of they get to close to our first fsmash

[MrEh]

Yeah, we can rest the Fsmash, but that's not something I attempt usually. Risky.


Powershield Rests are something that I do though.

[illinialex24]

toon link has a sword.

attack relentlessly.

Wow. According to this reasoning Toon Link rapes Snake. Oh wait.......... According to this, Link is top tier. Oh wait.............

[§teel]

snake has weapons to shut down aggression, even if his opponent has disjointed hitboxes. does jigglypuff? she can try and fly away. cool

[illinialex24]

snake has weapons to shut down aggression, even if his opponent has disjointed hitboxes. does jigglypuff? she can try and fly away. cool

Yes I know that. I'm not an idiot, not even close. She also has an insane DI. I'm saying its 60-40 TL. His projectiles are a lot to handle, his zair is ok here but his sword is fairly good. But he doesn't get an automatic advantage with just having a sword. Take away his projectiles and this should be a Jigglypuff advantage, or at least neutral.

[iRjOn]

Wow. According to this reasoning Toon Link rapes Snake. Oh wait.......... According to this, Link is top tier. Oh wait.............
Snake out ranges Toon Link >_>...

Link is slow and sucks at recovery...

Jiggs has her undisjointed fist of burning fury that dont out range Toon Links Sword.

Plz understand what people mean.
*facepalm* Gosh
Man some people.

Again dont mean to sound rude.

[illinialex24]

Snake out ranges Toon Link >_>...

Link is slow and sucks at recovery...

Jiggs has her undisjointed fist of burning fury that dont out range Toon Links Sword.

Plz understand what people mean.
*facepalm* Gosh
Man some people.

Again dont mean to sound rude.

I understand what he means but his sword doesn't outrange lets say I dunno, pound for example. His bair is great though. I know what he means but everyone views her as an undisjointed piece of crap. Her grabs are very good. She has good range on her bair, amazing DI on her nair, a very strong killing fair, great range on pound, and a good dair that actually has significant disjoint.

[iRjOn]

I understand what he means but his sword doesn't outrange lets say I dunno, pound for example. His bair is great though. I know what he means but everyone views her as an undisjointed piece of crap. Her grabs are very good. She has good range on her bair, amazing DI on her nair, a very strong killing fair, great range on pound, and a good dair that actually has significant disjoint.
But not once did we imply shes has a crappy undisjoint.
Pounds start up makes its range pointless.
Not saying its useless.
Just in range comparison nair and bair outrange it barely...
And yes her aireal movement almost makes her undisjoint stupid to consider a flaw.
But Toon Links aerials that will be abused are fast as or faster with more range.

His ground games just beats hers cause she wont really be grounded anyway.
And yea Dair is trouble good priority and range with her aerial movement.
but It can be out ranged still and TL has some good aerial movement too.

[illinialex24]

But not once did we imply shes has a crappy undisjoint.
Pounds start up makes its range pointless.
Not saying its useless.
Just in range comparison nair and bair outrange it barely...
And yes her aireal movement almost makes her undisjoint stupid to consider a flaw.
But Toon Links aerials that will be abused are fast as or faster with more range.

His ground games just beats hers cause she wont really be grounded anyway.
And yea Dair is trouble good priority and range with her aerial movement.
but It can be out ranged still and TL has some good aerial movement too.

Yeah but with her DI, without projectile she would win in the air. But his ability to hide behind them and use them to set up other moves really makes him have an advantage and more than just a token one, but it isn't like a good Jigglypuff will lose to a moderately worse Toon Link. Its still very winnable for the Jigglypuff but she has to either have luck or be better than the TL.

[iRjOn]

Yeah but with her DI, without projectile she would win in the air. But his ability to hide behind them and use them to set up other moves really makes him have an advantage and more than just a token one, but it isn't like a good Jigglypuff will lose to a moderately worse Toon Link. Its still very winnable for the Jigglypuff but she has to either have luck or be better than the TL.
True on the projectile thing because she has trouble approaching is key.
But sadly yes they have to be on the same lvl for matchup odds to apply.
But I wouldn't say luck just out smart the Toon Link, capitilize on his weak spot dont pick FD or stages like that so on and so forth.