Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #34 - Ness

[VietGeek]

Ness

http://forum.starmen.net/forum_attachments/0008/0599/Ness_6.png
Lucas don exits.

Ratio: 55:45 Toon Link

Synopsis:
Coming like...when you believe.

Onward!

[Spaghetti]

I dunno - I personally have never played a good Ness before.

I would say don't attack from above, but I dunno.

[Masky]

If TL sets up a river of projectiles on the ground Ness can not approach TL in the usual ways, he has to rely on approaching from above and hovering over TL until he makes a mistake. TL's favor

[Spaghetti]

I would also say TL's favor, definitely.

TL Pros: Longer range
Better projectiles
Better recovery

Cons:
I dunno about strength - anyone can confirm?

[Uffe]

I keep getting told it's in TL's favor, but I don't know. I mean TL has good projectile, but it doesn't mean Ness can't touch him. A character who relies too much on projectile alone will find themselves in a tough spot when their opponent is close. I don't think I've actually fought any TL's that are at my skill level to determine this.

[TLMSheikant]

People Its not only the proyectiles sheesh we also have a freaking sword. Its not like were done for upclose. :/ Anyway, Ness' fair is annoying stay away from that. Use proyectiles ;) but if u have to fight him up close remember u have a freaking sword. 55:45 Toon Link imo.

EDIT: 700th post woot.

[sasukebowser]

Back throw used to scare me.

Doesn't anymore now that I can DI. =P

[F00LY]

Agreed. DI is your friend. Granted its lolwifi but I fought NessFTW and a few others **** near daily between GB + AiB and quite frankly we rape Ness. Projectiles keep him away, his fAir is kind of annoying but retreating zAirs and nAir mixups generally do an okay job at stopping it.

At high percents all you need to worry about is "Don't get grabbed." Bomb like a pro and stay away. Just watch out for PK2T and you'll be fine.

My useless opinion: 60:40 TL.

[Uffe]

People Its not only the proyectiles sheesh we also have a freaking sword. Its not like were done for upclose. :/ Anyway, Ness' fair is annoying stay away from that. Use proyectiles ;) but if u have to fight him up close remember u have a freaking sword. 55:45 Toon Link imo.

EDIT: 700th post woot.


I'm well aware of that. I just decided to point it out on the first page to get it out of the way. Everybody knows TL has a sword. I'm just saying there might be people who come in and bombard the topic with, "Well TL has projectile and can attack from far away!"

[iRjOn]

I believe Ness vs Toon Link is 55:45 Toon Link
:D
Why?
Because its alittle difficult to camp Ness and even though Ness has shorter range, his ground game out beats ours and his air game has more priority with faster startup on all his aerials.

uair is a kill move. Quick startup short range though but ness's strange jump makes up for it.
Can be comboed into right?
And it has very little end lagg.

fair swats through most projectiles and autocancels right...?

nair is a wall of short range, but Ness's strange jump and aerial mobility make range not a big prob against Toon Link, priority.

Dair can easyly spike us outta upb.
But we can easily gimp him also just toss a rang into his PKT.
A smart Ness will aviod this mostly though.

bair has good priority and its a kill move.
Freaking strong when sweet spotted too also its extremely easy to sweetspot imo.
I dont even play Ness any more and when I get him on Random I sweetspot it.
Bair also a great edge grauding tool.
Thats his aerials.

Our only aerials that truely challenge his are zair, nair, and bair.
Boy aint that how it always is >.>...lol
bair is great as always.
nair is still sexy.
zair is always epic
But Toon Link can still play this match normal...
its challenging but not too hard to camp Ness.
Zair out spaces Ness's every move.
So use it alot.

all I got atm.

[PK-ow!]

I can't think of any situation in which Ness would have the positional advantage, save one.

Swooping around just above TL? TL's got a mad dash and has utilt and Usmash.
Freefall on equal level? Sword > PSI
Ground at range? TL's projectiles are projectiles; Ness' ranged attacks don't even technically count (by dictionary definitions of projectile).

Ness on ground, TL high up? Maybe Ness can harass with PKT but if he can't hit you give an opening for TL's smashes, and all TL has to do is get to the ground, and he has bombs, boomerang, and superb drift to do it.

Ground face-to-face? Point blank, even? TL just has more speedy, mobile options. And now zair comes out.

And throughout all of that, TL always has nair. The speed on nair makes it an omnipresent threat. If Ness makes a mistake, nair. It even trips, if I recall correctly.

He's got everything.


It's a fast paced match at high-level, for sure. I can't see it clearly, but I am positive that Ness is striving to stand inside TL, because any other position is crap. Ness' only chance is to be right next to TL, but even from there he's still got his own jab, so Ness has to keep TL offbalance... somehow. Ness is trying to get up close, jab, dair chain, or uthrow, and just rack damage while keeping TL from using his most annoying stuff.

If they trade damage in such aa way, Ness is winning, for the simple reason that his KOs are simpler, and he is heavier (mmmmmmmarginally).

I think Ness, then, is trying to play this by pressuring TL into delaying his KO... y'know, countering TL's KO setups, or just not letting them happen, by denying TL from controlling the game. Screw up his boomerangs, kamikaze against bombs, and don't give the frames for arrows. For this, it's crucial not to be open even for a moment if there is a chance of Fsmash or Usmash. In fact, don't go above TL at all. You don't want to even let uair be relevant.

To appraise the matchup ratio then, if I'm right, is to say how good Ness is at doing this, and how well TL can... make the game play out any other way.

And with zair and nair alone, Ness has his work cut out for him.


There is just one other factor, and that's ledge game. Ness is too gimpable, of course (we're even vulnerable when on the ledge), but we likely also need to edgeguard you like our life depends on it. We can more liberally try our dairs, as a miss isn't ipso facto death. But there's also PKT, of course, and PKFire if we super-read you. Plus, while you have projectiles to make way, your recovery path is still limited, for which the PK Flash does come into play (thesage would say I'm dead wrong).


This is how I think the match goes. I don't know how I'm so sure... and if I'm right, I don't know what that makes the match number. I don't know all TL's strengths and weaknesses.

[_clinton]

I'll play with some of you Tink's if anyone wants a match...

Anyway IMO Tink is ****ing annoying to fight...Nair pretty much deals with the boomerang and arrows...but they are still annoying...and the bombs have other issues...

As for recovery...I feel they both can gimp the other one pretty well Tink's recovery has certain issues on it and Ness' has a huge gimpable part for his...

Kill wise I feel they are even to a point...a grab release to Usmash is able to be avoided (frame 11) but I'm pretty sure a Dsmash won't be avoided most of the time (frame 9)

Ness has a blind spot in the air coming down and Tink's Uair is around the same in kill power as Ness' Uair...so overall Ness should learn to try and avoid that...

[ZeroXMachine]

So I just played at a tournament this last Saturday and got 2nd place.

1st place was a Ness player.

****. I really didn't see that coming. I'll post a link to our matches when they get uploaded.

Anyways, I played him a few times more (friendlies) and discovered some useful techniques (most of which have been mentioned here).

1. Outspace him on the ground with Zair, follow-up with w/e.
2. Playing mid/long-range worked best for me. When we got up close. His d-tilt spam owned my Toon Link's poor little shins :/
3. I found it kinda hard to land Bair when he was in the air, I found more success while he was grounded. His air attacks just seem to have surprising speed and priority. It seemed like Ness' hitboxes were just bigger or something.
4. Don't get grabbed. Btw, can someone direct me as to how to DI against that properly?
5. When PK Fire hits, expect grabs at high %.

Any suggestions for counterpicks?

[_clinton]

I should point out that PK Jump is an ok answer for Ness to deal with blind spamming for many characters...

[sasukebowser]

Yo should DI out of the fire and Dair him, Zero.


Whats PK jump? Like the zap jump thing Lucas has?

[_clinton]

Yo should DI out of the fire and Dair him, Zero.


Whats PK jump? Like the zap jump thing Lucas has?

Yep...or at least the controls for it are the same...Ness' is overall different as far as use goes (It doesn't really do anything for his recovery for one thing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QHePOJRNKE

Ness can make lagless landings easily as well from this move...

[Timotee]

Ness strat for this fight: Rush. That. ****. Down.

Hi ZeroX ^_^ The vids are up, by the way, search youtube for "Timotee ZeroX"

Actually useful comment edit: It's hard to tell who has the edge in this fight, I need more exp with it, but it's a fun fight regardless. If TL sets up his projectile wall well, it's hard for ness to get in, but once ness gets a knockdown, it's hard from TL to escape the rage.

[Uffe]

So I just played at a tournament this last Saturday and got 2nd place.

1st place was a Ness player.

****. I really didn't see that coming. I'll post a link to our matches when they get uploaded.

Hey, that's actually pretty good considering the person used Ness. :)

Anyways, I played him a few times more (friendlies) and discovered some useful techniques (most of which have been mentioned here).

1. Outspace him on the ground with Zair, follow-up with w/e.
2. Playing mid/long-range worked best for me. When we got up close. His d-tilt spam owned my Toon Link's poor little shins :/
3. I found it kinda hard to land Bair when he was in the air, I found more success while he was grounded. His air attacks just seem to have surprising speed and priority. It seemed like Ness' hitboxes were just bigger or something.
4. Don't get grabbed. Btw, can someone direct me as to how to DI against that properly?
5. When PK Fire hits, expect grabs at high %.

Any suggestions for counterpicks?

Before responding to this, I was positive I responded to what iRjOn said. :/ Anyway, the ground is where you probably want to be when you fight Ness. Of course he can get you up in the air and technically you will have to be in the air just like Ness will eventually need to land on the ground. And did you by any chance d-tilt his d-tilt? I'd check this right now, but do both clank or does one have more priority over the other? And yes, Ness' aerials seem to have good speed and priority.

As for DIing from a b-throw, you might want to DI diagonally. I'm not sure if that's what works, but I seem to survive Ness' b-throw by doing that. Of course don't expect every Ness main to use his or her b-throw. I know I don't rely on that too often. As for PKF, you really don't know what to expect. Ness can pull off anything he pleases and not a b-throw. If it's a grab, they'll probably go for a d-throw since you'd most likely still be burning in the pillar and have that d-throw doing more damage. That usually reaches up to 30%. Anyway, TL should be able to DI out of that easily anyway unless he gets caught right inside PKF.

[InterimOfZeal]

Bthrow WILL kill you at 130%. Period. Unless the Ness is getting antsy and trying to bthrow you across Jungle Japes, or has used it in the past 10 moves (good Ness players shouldn't).

The bat rapes Tlink's boomerang, as a warning. From what I gather, it makes the boomerang his and you aren't able to throw it again for a VERY long period of time.

Zone, zone, zone some more. Never challenge his fair or utilt, ever. SDIing the PKF and then dairing? That's stupid **** right there that will get you raped, unless the Ness is suffering from Down's Syndrome.

Don't try to grab blindly, either. Ness can deal a metric crapton of damage when you leave gaps like a wiffed grab.

I could be wrong, but tlink's upb might be useful in this fight when used properly. It's what I've used against Timotee, anyway.

Bthrow is tricky to DI. Too far up, and you'll die off the top. Too far to the opposite, and you'll die off the side. Get used to DIing based on stage and positioning.

[_clinton]

Ness strat for this fight: Rush. That. ****. Down.

Hi ZeroX ^_^ The vids are up, by the way, search youtube for "Timotee ZeroX"

Actually useful comment edit: It's hard to tell who has the edge in this fight, I need more exp with it, but it's a fun fight regardless. If TL sets up his projectile wall well, it's hard for ness to get in, but once ness gets a knockdown, it's hard from TL to escape the rage.

Ness' rage is something you don't want to deal with...I have a replay of me doing 0-death on Tink that starts with me using his own bomb and shoving it up where the sun don't shine ^_^

Still though...I feel the projectile wall Tink has can be dealt with somewhat using PK Jump right...but if anyone has the + for this match...it is Tink...

[InterimOfZeal]

Clinton, fsmash his boomerang. Then he only has arrows and bomb to work with. Still formidable, but not the BS that we see normally.

[Shadow Moth]

Boomerang has many different uses. You can't just say "Fsmash it" and move on. For one thing, we can throw it all different ways from different positions. Fsmash'ing it wouldn't even do anything unless we throw it straight and just move in a horizontally linear fashion -__-
Yeah . . . that's totally gonna happen every single ****ing time.
Not to mention that boomerang can be used in combination with other projectiles. Yeah bet you didn't see that one coming. It's not that easy to dodge it without the other stuff when you throw TL himself into the equation.

[sasukebowser]

Fsmash Toon Link.
Its better. =D


lol, jk. Yeah, the Fsmash thing gets sorta annoying, especially since the boomerang is returning towards you. Then you sorta have to avoid it and put yourself in an award position most of the time.

[Timotee]

Actually, I'd prefer you throw the boomerang at an angle, so that it will become mine and travel its full path, giving a decent few seconds where you can't boomerang. That's what Interim was referring to. Worst case: get hit by a bomb or arrow after batting the 'rang.

But good try at sarcasm, you'll get it yet!

[TLMSheikant]

But if u bat the rang it just leads to more stuff from us in ur lag so dont rely on it that much. It still limits our rang tho ill give u that.

[_clinton]

Boomerang has many different uses. You can't just say "Fsmash it" and move on. For one thing, we can throw it all different ways from different positions. Fsmash'ing it wouldn't even do anything unless we throw it straight and just move in a horizontally linear fashion -__-
Yeah . . . that's totally gonna happen every single ****ing time.
Not to mention that boomerang can be used in combination with other projectiles. Yeah bet you didn't see that one coming. It's not that easy to dodge it without the other stuff when you throw TL himself into the equation.

Thank you...because that is what my thoughts on batting the boomerang...plus the 20 frames you need for getting the bat out is another issue...it isn't like Lucas (fun fact 14 frames isn't as much of an issue)

Of course then there is the fact that it only works on the ground...

[t3h n00b]

I zair spam when I play Ness and it works pretty well as long as I'm not offstage o_0

[Timotee]

The boomerang throw is fairly obvious to see, not that hard to reaction. I'm not saying it turns the fight around, but denying TL an option for a few seconds is worth a little damage in my opinion. 20 frames isn't that hard to plan around, it's faster than pkt2 =D

But, upon more consideration of the match, I throw my hat to 55:45, TL. Ness is the better Pirate Ship Fighter though.

[_clinton]

The boomerang throw is fairly obvious to see, not that hard to reaction. I'm not saying it turns the fight around, but denying TL an option for a few seconds is worth a little damage in my opinion. 20 frames isn't that hard to plan around, it's faster than pkt2 =D

But, upon more consideration of the match, I throw my hat to 55:45, TL. Ness is the better Pirate Ship Fighter though.

PKT is more open and has more space to use with it compared to the bat...it isn't much of a speed issue considering how I brought up more than just speed with my view on Ness' bat...I'd rather just Nair, Fair, just dodge them, or Power Shield approach in order to deal with most of Tink's spam options...

I still feel it is more of an flat on 5:5 even match though...

[Lizard]

Tlink has the favor, but Ness is not out. Tink can out camp, but ness can out aerial (most of tihe time.... Bair chain is too good.).

I've seen masky.... where you at Lio?

[ZeroXMachine]

Here are the videos. After watching these, I realize that I make a lot useless actions, oh well, always room to improve I guess :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGiipUYW3Gs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-7HbHd_Tyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0IR0GkDOs

Like I said, I have no idea how to DI properly out of Bthrow and I didn't expect the Uair pwnage.

As for the boomerang bickering: it is a way to limit TLink options, but powershielding is probably a better option than F-smashing it away.

Timotee is right about Pirate Ship... I thought TLink was the better swimmer.

[Jman115]

If you have played a GOOD Ness. You would know ness is severely underrated. He does not have poor recovery, and proper DI allows him to live forever. Tl's upb recovery is very susceptible to his spike. His aerials out prioritize us and are quicker to draw. A Ness who is good with their pk thunder can be scary.

This is a 50:50 in my opinion. I play the NZA and he is **** good. He beats mk's, snakes, Tl's, falco's etc with his Ness. He comes to my tournies and no one ever thinks his Ness will do anything and he places top 5 always. His back throw is lethal. Strongest throw in game i believe, or 2nd strongest. And that is huge advantage. Usually people are trying to avoid kill moves when they are in kill range. But with ness you also have to avoid the grab as well.

[thesage]

T. Link's killing problem really shows in this matchup. Ness also can gimp t.link with dair if he sets him up in the right position. Projectiles are annoying... I think it's even but I haven't really read what other people have said. T. Link should cp delfino since projectiles give him good control over that stage, though Ness is still good on that stage (T. Link just works better than Ness there).

[InterimOfZeal]

It makes the boomerang disappear for more than a few seconds, and it's not like I was saying "HOMG, FSMASH OWNS TLINK. JUST HIT THE BOOMERING AN U WINZ!"

If he boomerangs and you're on the ground, hit it with fsmash. He no longer has a boomerang. So what if you get hit by an arrow or bomb in the process? You've just taken a small amount of damage to limit his zoning options. It's worth it, in my opinion.

Is Yoshi's Island a good stage for TLink? If so, take Ness there. Messes with him something fierce.

[t3h n00b]

In my opinion, Yoshi's Island is a good TLink stage because it's small and always keeps him at spamming distance. Walljumps are good too.

[_clinton]

YI SSBB is so so with Ness...

It screws with his ground PK Fire, as well as PK Thunder sometimes (I've been gimped by that platform and a fly guy) and I feel his yo-yo has issues as well..

But that middle platform is pretty useful to Ness IMO for his air game...plus well it makes sure that Ness never uses PK Thunders in a certain area for his recovery...that platform can help his gimp and recovery game to a point (distance issues of PKT2 that is)

[thesage]

YI SSBB is a terrible stage for Ness and I always ban it. It's his worst stage. Good thing he does well on most cps though lol.