Marth Mains in a Conference - Rarth+

[VietGeek]

Rarth+ Base of Operations.
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3329/8893c4004c6b4f3ad0f5130.jpg"Break the unbreakable."

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Table of Contents
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?. Rules of Rarth+ Discussion Thread

I. National Anthem

II. Metagame

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?. Rules of Rarth+ Discussion Thread
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1. Talk about Rarth in general. Retell the legends of lore, tales of love and deceit, rebellion and defeat. Tell the legends of the forefathers of old, the great "Marth" and his kingdom in Altea, his grassroots to his great ascent to king of Archanea to his fall before the Mulberry Tree by the hands of The Cape.

2. Train yourselves in the sword and harness the inner fire of your magmatic hearts to explode into warriors that will one day take back the throne of Archanea from the hands of "Veril" and The Cape.

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I. National Anthem (revised)
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[Requiem aeternam. Dona eis, Domine]

Do the impossible
see the invisible
row! row!
fight the power!

touch the untoucheable
break the unbreakable
row! row!
fight the power!

Power to the peeps, power for the dream
still missing piece scattering, so incomplete
we be the most incredible soldier from underground
see how easy, they all fall down
digging to the core to see the light
Let’s get out of here babe, that’s the way to survive, ya
top of the head, I’m on the set
do the impossible, don’t you wanna bet?
cuz, a lot of things changed, we be waiting in vain
if you wanna get by, no pain no gain
wow! fakers wanna test me again
sorry, my rhyme’s gonna snatch your brain, yo
I’m still starving for the straight up ****
we gonna make it happen with the crazy rap skill
get ready to rumble, now is the time, uh huh
if you ain’t know, now you know
good luck fellows!

[Libera me, Domine, de morte aeterna,
in die illa tremenda. in die illa
Quando coeli movendi sunt terra,
Dum veneris judicare saeculum per ignem.
Tremens factus sum ego et timeo,
dum discussio venerit atque ventura ira.]

2nd verse dedicates to the real peeps
what we got to say is so real thing
cuz, revolution ain’t never gonna televise
kicking the mad flow, microphone phenotype
open your third eye, seeing through the overground
I’m about to hit you with the scream from the underground
whole city is covered with the cyber flavor
“G” is in your area, one of the toughtest enigma

[Dies illa, dies irae,
calamitatis et miseriae]

[dies illa dies magna]
Do the impossible
see the invisible
row! row!
fight the power!
touch the untoucheable
break the unbreakable
row! row!
fight the power!
[et amara valde. et amara valde]
what you gonna do is what you wanna do
just break the rule, then you see the truth
this is the theme of “G” coming through baby!
row! row!
fight the power!

FIGHT THE POWER!!!

[Requiem aeternam, dona eis Domine]
Do the impossible
see the invisible
row! row!
fight the power!
touch the untoucheable
break the unbreakable
row! row!
fight the power!
what you gonna do is what you wanna do
just break the rule, then you see the truth
this is the theme of “G” coming through baby!
row! row!
fight the power!

[Requiem aeternam, dona eis Requiem]
Do the impossible
see the invisible
row! row!
fight the power!
touch the untoucheable
break the unbreakable
row! row!
fight the power!
what you gonna do is what you wanna do
just break the rule, then you see the truth
this is the theme of “G” coming through baby!
row! row!
fight the power!

[et lux perpetua luceat eis]
what you gonna do is what you wanna do
just break the rule, then you see the truth
this is the theme of “G” coming through baby!
row! row!
fight the power!

[Libera me, Domine]
Do the impossible
see the invisible
row! row!
fight the power!

row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
[Libera me, Domine]
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!
row! row!
fight the power!

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II. Metagame
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~ The F-air: Despite being laggier and possibly making Rarth sadface in terms of pure air-to-air combos, forward air is still one of the top dog aerials in his arsenal. Let's listen to Veril and his "sore muri!" number crunching skills display the prowess of Rarth's fair when shorthopped fastfell:

KK here's some stuff for you kids, updated from before:

jump startup: 4 frames •••• SHFF airtime: 27 frames •••• SH airtime: 40 frames •••• FH airtime: 58 frames

Fair
Hits: 4-8
min frame for fair to hit: 4
reasonable frame for tipper fair to hit: 5
Aerial IASA: 39
landing lag: 7

Can be SHFF autocanceled or land-canceled (optimal). Fair is absolutely insane when landed well. If there are platforms... O.o Its also possible to SH fair and double jump or up-b. SH sjr fair ;p

fair effective shield advantage (accounting for SHLD)
landed tipper fair: 8 - #frames excess airtime - 7: max adv of 1
landed non-tipper fair: 10 - #frames excess airtime - 7: max adv of 3

optimal landed non-tip fair effective advantage@0 on hit:~21 (AFW: 17)
optimal ledge-canceled fair adv@0 on hit: 27 (AFW: 27)
*AFW: aerial followup window

frame perfect SHFF fair frame map: cause I am that sad. You can input fair earlier as long as you land asap after the hit. This is just the ideal. Practice yo' tech skill, Rarth+s.

Frame 0: input jump for SH
Frame 24: input FF
Frame 26/27: input fair for tipper/non-tipper
frame 31: hit!
Frame 32: land
frame 38: input... something
Frame 39+: no mo' lag... profit

combos into: almost anything. Self-combos. Hawt.

:jigglypuff:

Simply put, there is an actually good window for SHFF fair -> combos. The window for a non SHFF tipped fair is naturally less because of the laggier aerial IASA frames. But that's not the point because SHFF is the undisputed tool for low to mid/mid-high percent rape.

You can also see that landed correctly on shield, it is one of the few moves to have positive frame advantage on block. This will allow you to almost always be able to land a dtilt or even a grab (with tight timing: from the +3 advantage off [optimal] untipped fair, there is a 4 frame window for your opponent to do something. However there is almost no character in the game that has a [good if any] below 4-frame option to escape, hence rape. :012:

Credits for Veril again for caring.

[KirbyKaze]

Marth's hair got nerfed what you be sayin.

[VietGeek]

Marth's hair got nerfed what you be sayin.

oh i c

guyz hes balanced now just leave him alone ok?

His hair got nerfed? Wow, I didn't even know.

[SyOn]

A simple tiara buff should make up for his hair nerf.

[I_Am_Plum]

I'm no expert with him, but the time I have spent with him just makes me say wow. Getting used to his spacing game is a little harder than in vBrawl IMO because the game is just so much faster, but that is just something that takes practice.
Just so much range... If he can keep you out of his blindspot than Marth is just a wall of range and disjointed hitboxes. Once you get him above you though, he can't do much with his Dair, and is just stuck until he gets an opening.
Marth in B+ is one of the reasons I hate G&W in B+. That's how good he is basically.
He doesn't have the most amazing combos, but that doesn't say he is lacking in any sense. Your sig is a great example :P

His recovery still sucks though... Really badly.

http://stacksmash.cultnet.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/al_090331_0113binout-300x225.jpg
http://stacksmash.cultnet.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/al_090330_18531binout-300x225.jpg
And this is the scariest Marth texture I have ever seen. And my friend refuses to play as any other Marth.

[Thirtyfour]

Marth has the majority of his Melee combos.
Uthrow, Uair juggle
Utilt Bair set up
Fair Dair
Fair Fair Fsmash
Fthrow Fsmash (TIP WOO)
Nair nair set up

Ill have someone upload a match in a bit

In my opinion, His Side B is ridiculous in terms of locking a character in the whole combo
Each individual hit should have its own unique knockback and hitstun as it did in melee
In Vbrawl its acceptable as a legit combo with out any SDI
In Brawl+ its a bit much with marth's already at LEAST high tier combo and grab game

[goodoldganon]

So...what do you think? Discuss his metagame, combos, traps, gimps, defensive tactics, whatever, hell, talk about how great his hair is in Brawl+. I'm sure they buffed it somehow <_<. Talk about potential balance issues and whatnot as well. Just...talk about him. I think you can even talk about how much I suck with him.

This is an excellent topic and a great first post here. Very nice work. Try and discuss more metagame and less balance though :)

On the subject of Marth, I find he has a lot of trouble with Samus. Z-air outspaces everything he has making her nigh unapproachable. What do you guys think?

[VietGeek]

Your friend is a sadist lol.

I've added some general rules/guidelines of what is suppose to happen in this thread. Any higher-powered Brawl+ person guy can tell if I'm doing something wrong.

Oh look at me I'm trying to look important. <___<

*scurries away into the forest*

This is an excellent topic and a great first post here. Very nice work. Try and discuss more metagame and less balance though :)

On the subject of Marth, I find he has a lot of trouble with Samus. Z-air outspaces everything he has making her nigh unapproachable. What do you guys think?

I don't know about B+ Samus but vB Samus always kinda telegraphed if she was about to zair. This applies to a lot of the zair characters, but Samus specifically because she has to execute it more precisely to get the full zair hitbox out.

So you can powershield it and then get in. Once Marth is in her face she has a hard time getting out where she feels more comfortable shooting stuff at you.

Speaking of this I should work on powershields. =P

[Thirtyfour]

This is an excellent topic and a great first post here. Very nice work. Try and discuss more metagame and less balance though :)

On the subject of Marth, I find he has a lot of trouble with Samus. Z-air outspaces everything he has making her nigh unapproachable. What do you guys think?

The Samus vs Marth match up is fine,
I forget the Term to approach by air dodging towards someone.
CAD? QAD? HAD? TAD? I dont remember.
(aib says SHAD)

Marth as most would know can jab most of her missles, and even so can SHAD past her predicable camp game.
His Nair is his best set up move imo to juggle Samus.
That match up is in marth's Favor I cant get into much detail, but defensively samus doesnt have much to lie back on against marth's sword and juggle capability.

[goodoldganon]

I'm obviously not playing the world's best Marth then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_3POppNwE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NBSF_L04g&feature=channel_page

I still think Samus is tough matchup for him. B+ helped her combo game and the missiles, charge shot, and F-smash are all very potent killers. The ability to combo into a charge shot and kill at lower percentages is quite dangerous, especially against someone like Marth with a mediocre recovery.

[Thirtyfour]

I'm obviously not playing the world's best Marth then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_3POppNwE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NBSF_L04g&feature=channel_page

I still think Samus is tough matchup for him. B+ helped her combo game and the missiles, charge shot, and F-smash are all very potent killers. The ability to combo into a charge shot and kill at lower percentages is quite dangerous, especially against someone like Marth with a mediocre recovery.

That marth didnt use a single Nair the first stock and doesnt even know how to set up Fsmashes or Dairs in brawl+
He approaches with Dair his aerial with the most amount of lag FROM ABOVE.
It doesnt even seem like he could approach a Samus in vbrawl playing like that obviously.
I dont play in a tourney til the weekend.
If you want I can have a decent wifi samus play my marth.
I'll show you some set ups, how he can currently approach camping.

The match up is in marth's Favor

Also there's no title for "World's Best Marth" in Brawl+ yet. I dont think it would be in Ohio anyway.

[cman]

The Samus vs Marth match up is fine,
I forget the Term to approach by air dodging towards someone.
CAD? QAD? HAD? TAD? I dont remember.
(aib says SHAD)

Marth as most would know can jab most of her missles, and even so can SHAD past her predicable camp game.
His Nair is his best set up move imo to juggle Samus.
That match up is in marth's Favor I cant get into much detail, but defensively samus doesnt have much to lie back on against marth's sword and juggle capability.

I've been playing almost exclusively samus in B+, and I disagree heavily with what you wrote.

You aren't going to want to jab her missles, because you are going to eat a hit for it. If charge shot is full, then that, and if not then most likely a zair. This is because all of her projectiles move at different speeds, so they have time to catch up to each other.

Also, if you air dodge towards samus, it's extremely easy to stuff the ad with a charge shot. I can hit it ~80% of the time, and do you really want to take 25%, get hit farther away, and then have to try to approach again? I suppose you could use it very sparingly, but it doesn't work as a go-to approach option. Rolling towards samus suffers the same problem.

Marth could walk/run and then shield attacks, and since Samus' grab is so terrible, that's pretty safe, but super missles and charge shots do a lot of shield damage, so you need to watch out for that. Characters with a good dair could jump over her projectile game and dair since samus doesn't have any decent options on people above her. Her uair is easily beaten by any dair with a disjointed hitbox, and none of her projectiles go up. However, marth's dair would be a terribly risky approach, so he is more or less limited to shield approaching.

Once marth does manage to get in, he'll rape her since her gtfo options are pretty limited, but getting in is going to be tough. I think it's going to be pretty even.

[Phillyrider807]

Marth is arguably the best in the game right now aside from mk and fox. I am by no means a marth main but i've played with him a couple times and even my noob self took a stock in like 5 moves. His dancing blade is kinda crazy and can lock people for the whole combo. Add this to his great grab and air juggle game and yea marth should be feared in the right hands.


Don't know too much of the samus vs marth matchup but i have a pretty good brawl+ zss and i say she goes about even with marth. I still think marth has a slight advantage if he gets in but zss can usually camp him til she gets a opening and then follow up with a 25-45% combo.

[VietGeek]

ZSS and Marth is even in vB, I feel the ratio is still set in stone in B+.

[RyuReiatsu]

Personally, I'd like to see his falchion get extended a bit.
I can't beat my bro's pikachu in the air, I try analyzing him and stuffs. But his air attacks seem to have more priority than Marth's (I might be wrong, but I'm better than him.) His nair and fair seem fairly useless again small characters such as Pika.

The only way for me to win is to constantly use dashdancing and grabbing. Which is pretty cheap, spamming was never fun.

Well anyways, that was my little complaint, I know I'm really annoying with that lol.
I'd like to ask, before really discussing about him, can you (B+ Marth Mainers) Double Fair consistently?
I can't, it's so much more harder than Melee.

[VietGeek]

Ryu, Almas said not to talk about buffs, also we cannot currently modify hitboxes.

Anyway, set your buffer to 4 or higher and it'll be a little easier to double fair, although fair really doesn't combo into itself anymore with even the most basic of DI. @_@

/needs to change this thread's rules.

[nightSN]

i think marth is a very solid character already, he was good juggle game, sworddance is just amazing, can space very well and he has no problem killing

[CloneHat]

I like Marth, his recovery seems to balance him out, but he can rack up damage a bit too easily with forward B.

[RyuReiatsu]

Ryu, Almas said not to talk about buffs, also we cannot currently modify hitboxes.

Anyway, set your buffer to 4 or higher and it'll be a little easier to double fair, although fair really doesn't combo into itself anymore with even the most basic of DI. @_@

/needs to change this thread's rules.

Sorry about that, I felt like it :laugh:.
Oh well, I thought that (somehow) fair could be a good combo. Sucks.

I really want to discuss about him, but it seems that my opinion's based a bit too much on Melee. (Yeah, I'm an idiot.) Anybody minds telling me 1 or 2 combos he could pull off?

[KarateF22]

The Ken Combo lives (fair, second jump, dair). Integrating that combo into your playstyle is pretty important now, as it can land some easy kills under the proper circumstances.

[RyuReiatsu]

The Ken Combo lives (fair, second jump, dair). Integrating that combo into your playstyle is pretty important now, as it can land some easy kills under the proper circumstances.

Yeah, gotta work on it. Other than that, not much?

Oh well, anyways.
I've suddenly thought of it, wouldn't it be nice to have DB1 similar to his Melee counterpart?(The aerial momentum change). What's your opinion? Recovering would be a bit less obvious and foreseen.

[KarateF22]

Yeah, gotta work on it. Other than that, not much?

Oh well, anyways.
I've suddenly thought of it, wouldn't it be nice to have DB1 similar to his Melee counterpart?(The aerial momentum change). What's your opinion? Recovering would be a bit less obvious and foreseen.

He plays basically like melee, except with smaller sweetspot, less range, and better DB. Also Dolphin Slash is great OoS.

DB1 currently has the effect of sustaining momentum, bringing acceleration to a halt while maintaining speed (correct me if im wrong). Isnt that basically what the Melee one did?

[ChaosKnight]

I destroy people with marth i swear i see a tear in there eye after the game is over :x marth in Brawl + is too good and top tier

[RyuReiatsu]

He plays basically like melee, except with smaller sweetspot, less range, and better DB. Also Dolphin Slash is great OoS.

DB1 currently has the effect of sustaining momentum, bringing acceleration to a halt while maintaining speed (correct me if im wrong). Isnt that basically what the Melee one did?

Actually, to think of it, I haven't tried it in the air since Beta 3.0 I think.
How stupid am I :urg:.

Anyways, I guess I'll try it out.
Oh and, how about being able to kill diagonally with Dair?
People might bash me for suggesting so many things... :laugh:

[Anth0ny]

The physics change helps Marth greatly. I don't think he needs any nerfs or buffs. He's a beast as he is, and he should just be left alone and I think he's going to continue being a top character in this game.

[RyuReiatsu]

Watched ShortFuse's videos, Forget about all I've said.
I need to practice, I'm off from this forum for a day or 2 LOL.

EDIT: Sorry I_AM_Plum ._.

Thing is, I really wanted to have big combos like Lucario, Sheik and Falcon x_x... Oh well.

[I_Am_Plum]

Read the rules guys :P

Keep things away from what can be buffed on Marth.

[GHNeko]

Fthrow CG on certain characters such as Wario, and Peach (DIable)

I think bowser is one of them too.

Ken combo is good, but Fthrow > Dair is great imo.

Fast fallers beware as well. Dancing Blade will get you grabed as Up on the 4th DB will launch and can get you grabbed out of tumble if the marth times his buffered grab right.

And uair juggles so good. <3

[Zodac]

edit: marth can no longer kill with DB and is worse in general

[GHNeko]

Oh. I though DB Up was common knowledge. It's excellent for conditioning really.


People normally DI up to survive the DB Left/Right finisher, so you can condition them to DI up, and use that to kill them. I think that's what makes the DB Up an excellent killer.


ALSO, Fthrow @ high percents > Sweetspot Up B = KO.

Seriously. Timing is pretty tight though.

And dthrow @ ledge > dtitl = Lol edgeguard.

[Nintendevil]

Pretty accurate to Melee besides the range, but if he had Melee range he'd go right to top again.

[GHNeko]

Nah. He's got some new tricks. B+ marth could probably win against Melee Marth, (game mechanics aside)

[VietGeek]

I'm currently looking for someone that has a good knowledge of B+ Marth to co-author the character guide to.

Err PM me or visitor message me. @_@

If you happen to have a cyan name with 2nd in it I don't mind giving you the thread. <_<

/baiting

[Dark Sonic]

Nah. He's got some new tricks. B+ marth could probably win against Melee Marth, (game mechanics aside)

Not in a million years.:laugh:

[Finns7]

Marths counter rapes reoverys now hardcore lol, Marth is a strong character if your smart

[GHNeko]

Not in a million years.:laugh:

Didnt I say game-specific mechanics aside. ;D

I'm currently looking for someone that has a good knowledge of B+ Marth to co-author the character guide to.

Err PM me or visitor message me. @_@

If you happen to have a cyan name with 2nd in it I don't mind giving you the thread. <_<

/baiting

Hi.

[Dark Sonic]

Didnt I say game-specific mechanics aside. ;D





How the hell do you do "mechanics aside"?

[GHNeko]

I meant it in the fashion that if we had to compare Marth+ and Melee Marth, they'd have to be compared in one game, like they'd have to be compared in either Melee or B+, not comparing Melee Marth with Melee mechanics to Brawl+ Marth with B+ Mechanics.

They'd have to be in the same game.

[Dark Sonic]

And in either case Melee Marth would wreck brawl+ Marth lol. All melee Marth would lose in brawl+ mechanics is...wavedashing. He's still got superior range, lower lag on his tilts, better aerials for comboing, a better recovery, and better edgeguarding. Not to mention, YOUNG LINK GRAB RANGE (I'm 100% serious here, they are actually about the same length.) Melee Marth can grab brawl+ Marth out of side B lol.

Brawl+ Marth has...side B, up B, and....counter. No contest.

Anyway, enough about melee Marth, let's talk about how amazing side B is lol.

[Magus420]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3103/marthepicgrabmaneuver.gif