Specific Moves and how Toon Link can counter them. Weak 3: Peach's Dair

[demonictoonlink]

Aight...So I got this idea from the Ganon boards...Basically, each week or whenever I see fit, we will discuss one bothersome move and how Toon Link can get around it. I will use this first post to archive discussions and the second post to inform what move we're on...
HAJIME!

I would appreciate suggestions for the next move be PMed to move as to not clutter this thread. Thank you ^^


Week One:

Metaknight: D-Air

No conclusion :(


Week Two:

Zero Suit Samus: Side-B...Whippy...Thingy...

Discuss!

Basics: Insane Range
Great Killing Power
Usually Stale
Odd start up lag

GodMeowMix
"Spacing is key vs. a ZSS player, primarly because she has a wicked side-b which can combo you according to your DI, not sure if its 100% accurate though. She has good range on her forward smash, and she down smash racks up good damage and has little lag. In the air you need to watch out for her UP-B, she will follow with 2 down smashes and then something else to rack up heavy damage.
Things I used to win my matches against a few were spaced neutral airs to retreating arrows, also be versatile with back airs with it too. You might want to experiment how dair works on ZSS' UP-B. Air dodge canceled item throwing is good too in the beginning of the match because ZSS will usually either throw their items strategically or spam them all at you, in which case the beginning will be an interesting match of a good ol game of catch. Thats all I can provide besides be patient, because a wrong move can get you combo'd pretty hard.


As for the ZSS Side-B usually its best (if you have a bomb in your hand obviously) to use a jump canceled throw if you see the Side B coming, her Side B isn't laggy but you can see it when it comes. Otherwise if it isn't properly spaced you can shield grab, out of shield back air, or out of shield neutral air, those are the only options I know of."



Week 3: Peach's Dair

[demonictoonlink]

Week Three:

Peach: Down Aerial

Combos like hell
Disjointed?
Damage Racker...
She has boobs.

INFRACT ME!

Ideas:
U-Tilt

[TheJerm]

This wasnt a good choice. Every TL knows the basic around around this. Which is bombs. If they are low, we can use zair or if you are abover them, dair. I've even sent my boomerang inside of nado's often. Also, arrows can stop the nado, if you hit them at the bottom. The Nado isnt a problem for TL.

[TLMSheikant]

Basically what Jerm said. Its not something significant in the matchup. Just bomb it...

[demonictoonlink]

This wasnt a good choice. Every TL knows the basic around around this. Which is bombs. If they are low, we can use zair or if you are abover them, dair. I've even sent my boomerang inside of nado's often. Also, arrows can stop the nado, if you hit them at the bottom. The Nado isnt a problem for TL.

Check the back room...I'm trying to decide on what move...I'm thinking meta's F-tilt

[TheJerm]

Mk's dair. Thats our only real problem if you want to talk about the MK match up.

[demonictoonlink]

Alright....I'll put that for now ^^
Anyone got a pic?

[toondiddy]

Yoshi may "have a counter for every one of MK's moves", but MK has a counter to Yoshi's existance, and more than one counter to anything the yoshi can try.

taking what scotu said and applying it, we can find counters to a specific move but if metaknight counters our character as a whole as well as our counters we're screwed.

also it would have to be a one-move counter because if we have set up counters we have to actually see it coming a while ahead of time.

im not saying this topic is bad but im saying will this topic really help

[TheJerm]

It wont hurt. Knowing how to deal with certain attacks will help. Like knowing how to DI MK's dair, or what to do about falco's lazers.

[SuSa]

The thing is trying to keep these threads alive. The Snake boards is 1 month old and on week 2... because few people post. (Just a heads up) so try to keep the community participating.

Also having a negative outlook on this information doesn't help. Personally I'd stick with dealing with higher priority moves, or moves that simply outrange Toon Link. He has a great camp game unlike characters like Ganondorf - so many of his counters are just "spam back".

Toon Link has a lot of options, and many of those options are pretty obvious and well known. So finding attacks to do this on may be hard.

I'd do as Jerm implied. Only talk about moves that really give Toon Link a problem. (Which apparently MK's dair is one of those moves...)

[TLMSheikant]

^ more like Mk's dair offstage XD. But yeah mk's dair please.

[demonictoonlink]

MK's Grab and F-Tilt are a lot worse for but, but onto discussion...

I really draw a blank for this...I've never really tried U-tilt, but it probably won't work...
Actually, on stage, our F-tilt might stand a chance...

[TheJerm]

Our ftilt does nothing to anyone thats special. Ok, I thought you would know I ment dair off stage.. dair on stage isnt that special.

[demonictoonlink]

I know that dair off-stage is worse...but play Fluxus and tell me Meta's dair onstage isn't terrifying...

[TWiNKatGC]

I'm a day late for the Nado discussion, but whatever.

What Jerm said is only half right. Arrows do work, but only once they are around half way charged. If they are half way, it will stop the tornado. If it is fully charged, then it will pierce the tornado and damage Metaknight.

Zairs don't stop the tornado.
Boomerangs don't stop the tornado.

We all know bombs can do the trick.
You can grab through the tornado successfully.
You can also arrow, assuming you charged it.

Anyways, back on topic.

MK's Dair doesn't out-prioritize any of our up attacks. That leaves us with 4 moves, assuming we're under. When we're already hit, we can air dodge so he misses his 2nd strike. We can attack between hits. The lag lasts longer than the attack itself, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find time for a hit.

[copacetic]

Does our b-air outrange mk's d-air? Assuming he's coming at us from above and to the side, that might be our best option, since it's a bit of a blind spot for us. If a mk is enough of a scrub to come at you from directly above, u-air works fine, but chances are they'll hit from above and to the side.

or maybe we can hold a bomb in hand and use up-b as an offensive move?

[DCStyle]

MK's 'dair chains' can be stopped pretty easily with bombs as well (assuming you have one in had).

When being pushed off stage, I like fast falling and using up B just to take priority.

[Drig786]

this topic will turn out to be pretty useful

[UncleSam]

Does our b-air outrange mk's d-air? Assuming he's coming at us from above and to the side, that might be our best option, since it's a bit of a blind spot for us. If a mk is enough of a scrub to come at you from directly above, u-air works fine, but chances are they'll hit from above and to the side.
I believe it does, bair chains are usefuland have good priorityif you get close range with MK which you shouldn't be doing unless you're going for a kill anyway

or maybe we can hold a bomb in hand and use up-b as an offensive move?
...that might be useful for other situations

this topic will turn out to be pretty useful

ya i kno rite?

[demonictoonlink]

Actually, the Up-B does sound like a great idea...
If we have a bomb in out hand, it should be safe anyways... great point ^^

[TWiNKatGC]

Does our b-air outrange mk's d-air?

I think it does. TL and MK have almost equal sized swords so it's hard to say. All I know is that TL's sword hitbox is quite a bit longer than the sword itself. As for MK, I don't really know.

I'm pretty sure TL's bair has more priority too, but in all honesty, getting them both to clash is insanely difficult, considering MK's dair is such a quick attack. It just comes down to whoever hits first, which is probably going to be MK.

[TheJerm]

MK's sword cant clash I believe

[sasukebowser]

It can't clash with projectiles.

Idk about physical

[TLMSheikant]

Yep when u face a dair campy mk u can usually wait for the slight second in which after they daired and go for the back air. U need quick reaction time tho. Ive done it a few times. What I hate about the matchup is his ability to gimp us...badly with dair. I always DI it up but at low percents it doesnt save u >_>.

[VietGeek]

MK's sword doesn't clash with anything. It will always trade-hits.

MK's dash attack & glide attack for lol priority btw. Both can clank with aerials. o_O

Also physically TL has a larger sword, but all of MK's range is superior to TL's, and MK is barely outraged by Marth, which has like some fancy broadsword, so obviously MK's sword is a lie.

[TLMSheikant]

^ This. Meta's obviously the son of Sakurai. :mad:

[copacetic]

Today in a tournament, I b-air'ed through mk's tornado. It wasn't near the startup, and it wasn't from above, just from the side. I didn't know that worked.

Also, up-smash outranges d-air. But barely, and it's scary

[demonictoonlink]

That doesn't really seem worth it...
Has anyone tested aerial up-B against Dair?

[TheJerm]

Thats not smart to do..

[TrIkZ]

That doesn't really seem worth it...
Has anyone tested aerial up-B against Dair?

if it does work and hits them when they DI out of it we are left open.
Or am i completely off?

[sasukebowser]

sasukebowser is a gun.

:Ohttp://j

[demonictoonlink]

I agree that it does seem pretty stupid, but it's a lot safer then it seems if you just have a bomb

[TrIkZ]

I agree that it does seem pretty stupid, but it's a lot safer then it seems if you just have a bomb

I up b in the air for lulz, but i mostly all the time get punished
I would rather take like 4% then a stock. if it came down to that.

[Shadow Moth]

I fight for my lulz.

But seriously I have a topic: Olimar.

Like, any of his moves that use pikmin.

I know arrows work but that's really inconvenient, to use arrows as an approach on a short character.

So yeah. =P

[demonictoonlink]

Everyone cool with that?
It kinda seems that MK's Dair off stage is pretty much just rape...Have a bomb and airdodge inteligently... That's about it

[Nehemiah]

what about nair if its from the top side since mk will end up descending to the same level after the first attack and nair has a farther reach and bair just has an arc

[sasukebowser]

Can Peach's Dair be next?

Pretty please? :3

[TWiNKatGC]

I fight for my lulz.

But seriously I have a topic: Olimar.

Like, any of his moves that use pikmin.

I know arrows work but that's really inconvenient, to use arrows as an approach on a short character.

So yeah. =P

Just read the Olimar match-up. Olimar has like infinity attacks that use Pikmin.

Oh, and I agree with Peach's dair.

[Everis755]

ZSS's forward B is rediculous vs z-air. i hardly, if at all, zair in that matchup. i'd like to throw that in the air too =D

[TheJerm]

I have a MM with a ZSS coming soon. Any tips? I never fought one before.