Toon Link's New Moveset Discussion- Week #7- UpSmash

[TLMSheikant]

Hello, I figured it was time to have a new moveset discussion since the old one is outdated and practically dead :/. Here we can discuss possible uses, setups and just about everything regarding TL's moves. The frame data used in this thread is from rutger's frame data thread (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226959). Time to discuss another move:

UpSmash!

[TLMSheikant]

http://i43.tinypic.com/acqy5j.jpg


Week 1: Up Tilt

Damage: 9%
Duration: 29
Hit: frame 8 to 12
Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 3
-Stale: 1
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -18 to - 14
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -20 to -16

Common uses:
-Kill move
-Spotdodge/roll punisher
-Combo/string/juggle trap starter

Pros:
-Can be used to kill.
-Can be used to punish rolls since it hits on both sides with moderate range.
-Can be used to begin strings.
-Can be used to punish spotdodges.
-Comes out relatively fast.

Cons:
-Even tho it can kill it doesnt do so until very high percents.
-Isnt safe on shields.
-Doesnt have much range.

Good move


http://i41.tinypic.com/16gc2uv.jpg



Week 2: Forward Air


Damage: 13%
Duration in air: 37
Landing lag: 18
Hit: 14
Hitlag, Fresh: 10
-Stale: 7
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 10
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 4
-Stale: 2
Frame Advantage in air, Fresh: -19
-Frame Advantage in air, Stale: -21
Frame Advantage landing, Fresh: -15
-Frame Advantage landing, Stale: -17


Common uses:
-Kill move
-Spacing move
-Edgeguarding
-Bomb followup

Pros:
-Has high knockback so it can kill early.
-Good range.
-Has little amount of cooldown.
-Hits almost all around Toon Link, covering him.

Cons:
-Horrid startup.
-Hits vertically so it cant edgeguard so well.
-Terrifying ending lag when not autocancelled.

Decent move


http://i29.tinypic.com/sqnimr.jpg


Week 3: Forward Smash



Fsmash 1:
Damage: 10%
Duration: 48
Duration into F-smash 2: 19
Hit: 15
Hitlag, Fresh: 9
-Stale: 7
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 3
-Stale: 1
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -31
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -33
Frame Advantage into F-smash 2, Fresh: -14
-Frame Advantage into F-smash 2, Stale: -16

Fsmash 2:
Damage: 13%
Duration: 49
Hit: 12
Hitlag, Fresh: 20
-Stale: 14
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 10
-Stale: 7
Blockstun, Fresh: 4
-Stale: 2
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -43
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -42

Common Uses:
-Kill move
-Punishing
-Baiting shields with Fsmash1 to grab

Pros:
-Is Toon Link's strongest attack ( knockback wise)
-Does 23% damage unstale.
-Can be used to punish an airdodge landing.
-Can be used to bait a shield with first hit of fsmash to get a grab.

Cons:
-Comes out slow.
-Can be DI'd out of. And some characters like floaties dont even have to DI to get out.


Bad move

http://i30.tinypic.com/oqkldv.jpg


Week 4: Dash Attack

Damage: 10%
Duration: 39
Hit: 9
Hitlag, Fresh: 9
-Stale: 6
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 3
-Stale: 1
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -28
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -29

Common uses:
-Edgeguarding.
-Jab locking.

Pros:
-Has a nice semi spike trayectory that can be used to gimp ppl with horrible vertical recoveries like Link/falco.
-Has jab locking properties.
-Has a good chance of making the opponent trip.
-Comes out fast.

Cons:
-Long ending lag.
-Not very useful aside from very situational cases.


Situational move

http://i25.tinypic.com/2iqbloy.jpg

Week 5: Down Air

Damage on spike: 16%
Damage, no spike: 13%
Damage after bounce: 8%
Landing lag: 40
Hit: 12
Hitlag, Fresh: 11
-Stale: 7
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 11
-Stale: 7
Blockstun, Fresh: 5
-Stale: 2

Common uses:
-Comboing.
-Shield Pressure.
-Spiking.

Pros:
-Does a lot of damage if both the pogo and dair hit.
-Can lead to other aerials after the pogo.
-Very potent spike.
-Can cancel horizontal momentum.

Cons:
-SDs if missed offstage.
-Lot of ending lag if whiffed.

ATs:
- Safe Spike- At 40% or higher, throw a bomb down so that it hits yourself and DI to the side and buffer a down air. The down air will slow fall preventing an SD while you are trying to spike. There are other ways to do this tech too.

-Bair to Double Jump Down Air momentum cancel- When you are sent flying off the screen, after DI'ing the hit, use back air then fast fall a little, do a double jump and immediately buffer a down air. Result: The back air will get you out of hitstun allowing you to DJ/fast fall and the down air will reverse all momentum and carry you back to the stage.

Situational move


http://i28.tinypic.com/25ip3xc.pnghttp://i25.tinypic.com/4zybe8.pnghttp://i31.tinypic.com/2a7aaf6.png

Week #6: Jab

Frame data:

Jab 1

Damage: 3%
Duration into Jab 2: 8
Duration: 19
Hit: 6
Hitlag, Fresh: 6
-Stale: 5
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 6
-Stale: 5
Blockstun, Fresh: 1
-Stale: 0
Frame Advantage into Jab 2, Fresh: -6
-Frame Advantage into Jab 2, Stale: -7
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -12
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -13


Jab 2

Damage: 2%
Duration into Jab 3: 10
Duration: 20
Hit: 6
Hitlag: 5
Block Hitlag: 5
Blockstun: 0
Frame Advantage into Jab 3: -9
Frame Advantage: -14

Jab 3

(Assuming as a continuation of Jab 2, no Fresh/Stale change)
Damage: 5%
Duration: 36
Hit: 6
Hitlag: 7
Block Hitlag: 6
Blockstun: 1
Frame Advantage: -30

Uses:
-GTFO move
-Jab cancel mindgames

Pros:
-Is Toon Link's fastest attack on the ground coming out in frame 6.
-Serious mindgame potential.

Cons:
-Lackluster range.
-The jab combo can be SDI'd.

Situational move


http://i25.tinypic.com/2002r77.jpg

Week #7: UpSmash

Frame data:

Duration: 37
Hit: 11-15
---Front hit---
Damage: 15%
Hitlag, Fresh: 11
-Stale: 7
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 10
-Stale: 7
Blockstun, Fresh: 5
-Stale: 2
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -22
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -24
---Back hit---
Damage: 10%
Hitlag, Fresh: 9
-Stale: 6
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 3
-Stale: 1
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -20
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -21

Uses:

Pros:

Cons:

[sasukebowser]

-U-tilt-
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk314/00Rutger00/Utilthitbox-1.png

Damage: 9%
Duration: 29
Hit: 8 to 12
Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Block Hitlag, Fresh: 8
-Stale: 6
Blockstun, Fresh: 3
-Stale: 1
Frame Advantage, Fresh: -18 to - 14
-Frame Advantage, Stale: -20 to -16


It's a good idea to add the frame data to this.
This is from Rutger's frame Data Thread (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226959). This only reason i didn't quote it is because you can't quote someone's quote. >_<;

[Shadow Moth]

Dammit S@nt. Didn't I say I was going to do this?

>: (

Whatever. Utilt is a good move to start a combo because you can easily jump out of it into bair. It's great for racing up damage because it hits quick and has decent range.

It also works as a kill move at higher percents.

[Power of Slash]

Utilt gets easily punished when it hits the shield. and I'm not just talking about shield grab punish, an opponent can easily land a kill move off a shielded Utilt.

It's not something that should be used OOS either.

I don't really... suggest using Utilt as a kill move if you're at high percents, but if you do have a lead it works wonders since opponents tend to get too careful to punish such things.

Excluding all that it's a pretty solid move. A nice alternative to usmash imo. Obviously leads into strings really easily

aaanndd.... I guess that's it for my perspective.

[Near952]

Great combo move at low percents, Decent kill move if you can't get the usmash off.
Covers a pretty good area around you,and can work nicely for anti-air. I see alot of inexperienced toons Utilt->bair wildly, and thats something you definatley want to avoid doing.

At low Percents:
Utilt->Bair
Utilt->Utilt
Utilt->Nair
Utilt-> Pivot grab (sparingly)
All work nicely.

[demonictoonlink]

Why did you steal this from Moth? He had dibs on it and you knew that.

[sasukebowser]

Who cares just contribute instead of talking about things irrelevant to the thread.

[Hyro]

Yeah, opponents will almost always airdodge out of your utilt, so grab or pivot grab. You can also try utilt -> dair. Confusing and you'll get your bounce to extend the combo.

[demonictoonlink]

I really just use U-Tilt at begining and ends of stocks. Combos great and kills great. Nothing special other that that. Damage is sub-par and doesn't really combo after like 20%

[Rutger]

What's this? Info from my topic is actually being used?
My motivation to continue to collect more info is rising!
slightly...


In all seriousness, I <3 the up tilt. It serves many purposes, it's relatively fast, can string together with other moves as well as being a good "GET OUT OF MY FACE!!! :mad:" move if the opponent is too close for comfort(though I like the jab combo more for that), and is a nice kill move if the normal ones just aren't working at the moment.

All my glorifying aside, it doesn't see a lot of use from me due to my habit of staying away from the opponent or being in the air. Maybe because of it not fitting in with my overall playstyle is why I like it for its kill potential, it becomes used so sparingly that it is fresh more often that not. :/

[Hyro]

Well it's usually fresh since like dtl said, it's not really used in the middle of stocks.

[demonictoonlink]

Actually, Rutger's post explains perfectly why I never use it in the middle of stocks... At the point that I should be U-tilt, I failed at spacing with Zair and ect... Eh...It's a great kill move with the power and range of Snake's...Shut up! I CAN DREAM!!!

[copacetic]

it's a faster, slightly weaker u-smash that doesn't have a weaker hitbox behind TL

it's more reliable, harder to punish, and easier to hit with than u-smash

[demonictoonlink]

I disagree with easier to hit with. Running Up-Smash is too good.

[Shadow Moth]

>_>

If people see you running at them they're going to assume you're trying to attack, not run up and shake hands.

<_________________<

Because of utilt's superior speed it's much easier to hit with

[Power of Slash]

It's still really easy to punish.

and Running Usmash isn't only applied in a situation where the opponent's on the ground, you can always mindgame into a Usmash or hit with it off of a projectile hit.

Utilt is moreso for a grounded opponent in a situation where you don't want to use Usmash, but don't mistake less punishability as making it more reliable to kill with. It's only slightly less punishable than Usmash as far as my opinion goes. well. Not slightly, there's a noticeable difference, but Utilt does have enough ending lag to get punished bad enough.

This sounds crazy, but it really does.

[Rutger]

Utilt is safer than Usmash overall as far as being able to be punished is concerned, approaching with Utilt though, not so much.

All the approaching methods we have for the Utilt can be put to better use with a different move and the boost we get from a hyphen smash(or whatever they are trying to call it now >_>) makes spacing the Usmash much easier than the Utilt. We can continue to play at a distance and still be able to safely land a Usmash when needed; the Utilt doesn't have the same freedom because, even though the Utilt hits sooner, it still needs the time to run/walk to the opponent that the Usmash doesn't. The Utilt will take longer as long as we want to have more space between TL and the opponent.

When I use the Utilt it usually depends more on my opponent than me, simply whether or not my opponent has put himself into a spot where the Utilt is the most appealing move for me to use. If not then I'm not going to try and get myself close enough for a Utilt. :/



and Running Usmash isn't only applied in a situation where the opponent's on the ground, you can always mindgame into a Usmash or hit with it off of a projectile hit.


Dammit, stop using the word mindgame like that! :mad:
TL's attacks do not go "mindgame" -> "Attack" when you push the button. "Mindgames" are not part of discussing moves, if they were then Falcon Punch is the best move in the game because I can "mindgame" my opponent into it, lag means nothing! :mad:

[Power of Slash]

Ok.

We can always follow a returning boomerang hit with a running Usmash. Utilt not so much unless the opponent is like. right above you. You can follow up things much better with a running Usmash than you can with a Utilt thus making it a better, more reliable kill move.

Is that rephrased statement better? O_o

Utilt really shouldn't be relied on for anything other than mixing it up.

[sasukebowser]

U-tilt is on of TL's best moves.

[TLMSheikant]

^ Thank u lol. IDK but utilt is my main kill move now :/. I cant land usmash anymore since everybody sees it coming from a mile away. I like to punish spotdodges with utilt too. And its decent range to the sides, coupled with good speed makes it one of my favorite moves.

[sasukebowser]

I love using Utilt to punish shield rolls sooo much! >_<

[Power of Slash]

U-tilt is on of TL's best moves.

I know, my posts seem anti-utilt but really I <3 utilt.

It's just negatives have to be pointed out, and I'm pointing out some negatives from my experience.

Utilt's starting to deviate me away from using Usmash. Which in turn is having my opponents live until Falco kill percents and that's just not good. ._.

[Rutger]

Is that rephrased statement better? O_o

Um, well, you didn't need to rephrase it Power of Slash. <_<;
Mindgame just isn't a good word to use, its true meaning seems to change with different people, it's also strictly a Human element whereas we are discussing the Technical and Mechanical elements of the game.
It just doesn't belong, and yet I see it too often on threads like this on the TL board. :urg:


Anyways, I've said all that I really can on Utilt. :/

[TLMSheikant]

Added pros and cons discussed about the move so far to the second post. Do u guys want me to put possible strings in the post too?

[BRLNK88]

utilt is a good way to finish MKs and Pikachus, who'll get killed by it at medium-ish percentages.

[ZeroXMachine]

On medium weight characters (ex: Mario) it kills at ~131% on neutral stages. Fatties like Snake require ~163%. Kills Jigglynuts at ~120%.

It's a reliable kill move on medium weight and lower. I usually have to find another way to kill fatties.

A pseudo-combo I perform is jab-cancel --> u-tilt. It works pretty much every time if you can get the first jab swing while your opponent is the air. If you hit them while they're grounded, they can shield the u-tilt or get knocked back a little too far out of the range of u-tilt. I'd just to point out that I yell "Zero Combo" every time I kill with it to add a little more mindgames to match.

[Pho]

Ahead of time, if you think landing an upsmash is going to be a pain, just tack on 20-30 more %, and SH air dodge, land near them and uptilt. Works pretty well.

[NeoCrono]

Decent move, I was able to kill my friends zss at 136% couple days ago. I try to find use it earlier then in a stock, or up tilt, jump, waits for an air dodge, and punish said air dodge with a up air

[BRLNK88]

I once killed a Fox with it at 100% on Smashville, not kidding.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I once killed a Fox with it at 100% on Smashville, not kidding.
.....Lame......

(XD Just kidding.)

But I think U-tilt would be best used (other then to juggle at low percents) as more of a counter kill, you know? So if you perfect shield an attack and they are on say 20% higher then Up-smash killing percent, then U-tilt would be best seeing as it comes out faster (It does come out faster, right?). Also it would be fresh like evey time they're at killing percents because who uses U-tilt when your opponent is at medium percents?

[Rutger]

.....Lame......

(XD Just kidding.)

But I think U-tilt would be best used (other then to juggle at low percents) as more of a counter kill, you know? So if you perfect shield an attack and they are on say 20% higher then Up-smash killing percent, then U-tilt would be best seeing as it comes out faster (It does come out faster, right?). Also it would be fresh like evey time they're at killing percents because who uses U-tilt when your opponent is at medium percents?

Yes, it is faster. The soonest you'll hit with the Utilt is frame 8, only two frames after TL's jab hits, whereas the soonest for Usmash is frame 11.


The Fox thing isn't too surprising, Fox will die from an Utilt in the center of Battle field with no DI at 120%. Doesn't sound too improbable if they were on the platform.


Wow, my thread really helps. It has all sorts of things. :D
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226959
*Shamelessly advertises*
:D

[sasukebowser]

*hopes Rutger will continue working on it* >.>

imho, don't to the combo thing. Or at least not yet. =/
The kill percentages is much more important for TL.

...That is if you decide to pick it up again. >_>
*nudge nudge*
<_<

[Rutger]

I plan to, it's just that my motivation is very low right now. :/

Hell, I already have some data collected. Not enough for me to make an update imo, but even if it was no one ever shows interest in the thread so I'm not motivated to spend the extra time of editing new info I get just for it to get overlooked again.

tl;dr
Pity me! :mad:


Anyways...
Yeah it'll happen, I'll continue to look into things as long as it is helping me, but if it's not helping others then I can save my time by not typing it up and just use my notes. :/

[copacetic]

I have it bookmarked, and I check on it a couple times a week to get some details on a move

it's incredibly helpful

[BRLNK88]

.....Lame......

(XD Just kidding.)


Well, what can I say? Fox stings like a wasp, but dies like a fly.
:p

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I won't disagree with you there. He can dish it, but he can't take it.
Isn't he like the third lightest or something?

Whatever. He can kill most of the cast before 110% anyway.

(But seriously, enough about Fox)

[Violynk]

I for one find it his best tilt...as said many times in the this thread can be used to kill at high percents and around 80 or 90% if the vertical blast zone is low enough. As for combo starter yes can be chained into other ariels. I use it on metas probably more than anyone else to be honest can get a meta up to around 50% just off a u-tilt combo..makes it easier definitely. Also you can use bombs just toss a few up and catch an opponent in the trap =/ I personally this is one of my favorite moves

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I once killed a MK at 98% with utilt at the bottom of battlefield =\
But then again MK was charging his usmash XD

[TLMSheikant]

Ok Im guessing everyone said everything they wanted to about utilt. Lets move on to our second move discussion:


Week 2: Forward Air