Who to use as Doc-counter Defense?

[Cyphus]

Assuming a great majority of us here, consider either Mario or Doc one of our, if not actually, our best character...
I'm interesting in knowing what other characters you play following Doc, or what you would consider the BEST choice as a 2nd or 3rd in command.

I think the most important concern about having an under command is that he protects your best by being played, whereas you believe your best would have a disadvantage.


We could argue who beats Doc/Mario 1v1...but if not all these, at the very least..SOME of these characters can give Doc trouble...(not neccessarily have an advantage, to keep things lesser argued)
Marth, Peach, Zelda, Samus, Ganon, Doc, Mario

I'm just trying to make sure we can agree on who we should WORRY about when using Doc and Mario.
Of course our experiences are very different, and our rivals use different characters that may adapt around apparent disadvantages into a new metagame...so here's a brief summary on my experience.



VS Marth
My Marth battles seem to go either way. Against the most impressive Marth i've faced(1 stocking me) It seemed i was sweating bullets the entire fight, while he just was following tech hits and abusing his extended grab reach, and canceling out pills. I think we can all agree Marth holds a slight advantage, at the least.

VS Zelda.
Since noone plays Zelda, minus me, in my area....this is the tables turned. There are plenty Doc players...and it appears quite the massacre. Outside of outranging him, the foot + their horrible recovery = simple low damage KOs. Nayru's Love is also the ultimate punish to any pill rush. Doc and Mario are combo-friendly, but alas its a feature they cannot exploit on Zelda due to her floatiness.

VS Peach.
This is one i would hope ya'll can help me on. I have fought several peaches...but none of them really take peach as their main character(or were that impressive) I under the idealogy Peach just out performs him, and not neccessarily "counters". Simply from her broken set of moves, and unedgeguarable recovery, Doc is forced to hunt for oponent mistakes, since any offensive risk usually gets exploited.

VS Samus.
Minus my most recent fight, where i got owned, i find Doc and Mario hold his own against samus, fairly well. I'm only putting her here as a threat, from the support she gained in the counter thread. Outreaching him, seems to be the main concern, and her horizontally bullying attacks like her missles, F.Smash, and Sex kick. Being Floaty also hurts their comboability. But the cape and pills/fireballs are still fully exploitable and useful, and u can also nail a KO from a lucky F.air.(w/ doc anyway)

VS Ganon.
ok..this is where people start raising an eyebrow at me. My Doc...and my bud's Mario.....both have a hell of a time fighting off another of my crew member's Ganon. I think the backthrow to Cape gets a little too much credit...being easier said then done. Ganon is really hard to grab, being shield grabbing is rarely an option when the Ganon abuses the full reach, and LCes into his Jab. He can be comboed well, but instead of needing 6 consecutive hits to carry him off the stage..Ganon just needs 3 good aerial whacks to take Mario and Doc off the level for good. And with his superior reach and power...its like he only needs to hit you half as much as you hit him to squeeze a win. With good DI, his extra weight and good recovery distance may times requires very high damage just to even use the cape edgeguard.


Lastly I have...
VS Doc/Mario
i don't think you can call a safe judgement on who beats who...but they each have their slight differences either helping or hurting....You can lose to another Doc(or Mario) whose not neccessarily better....but this brings us to the whole point of this thread........


Which character would be the best to use as a 2ndary to Doc/Mario, to help defend against his troubled-matches?(if not others, that i hope i get ya'll added thoughts, too)


Personally..i play Falco, Marth, and Zelda&Sheik alternatively.
I'm trying to limit my competitive arsenal down to 2 or 3.
I'm thinking my Zelda+Sheik combo would be best because....zelda will take care of Mario, Doc, and Samus while Sheik can duke it with Marth, Peach, and Ganon.
My sheik isn't on par w/ my other characters yet...and i'm hesitant to make her, from certain dignities in previously avoiding her....but a win is a win, no matter who you use...and if i can rape sheik's w/ my doc..she can't be all that evil.


So who do use as backup?...hows that go for you? and who do u think would be wisest?

[The Cape]

Doc v Peach:

This is going to sound weird but hit low.

When she sheilds hit your fair on her sheild nice and low, it should hit her feet and pop her up. Making an easy follow up for a U air.

You can juggle her at low percents and cape her turnips back at her and use them to abuse her right back with.

Keep your distance and move in on her mistakes (She d smashes and misses then you just fair her in the face)

Also, for pill rushing, if she slaps them down aim at different heights, legs, head, or bust. Hit those pills and make her come to you, an offensive Peach = an easier target.

These are basic, but mostly keep moving and avoiding her and you should be able to come out triumphant. and dont forget your U smash (invulnerable head)

Samus: Similar to peach, look for openings, avoid and reflect projectiles, and KO up.

Zelda: KO up.

Marth: capitilize on mistakes, thats all you can do.

Ganon: abuse his lag and combo rape him. Finish with fair or F smash, then cape his recovery (he sweetspots high).

vs Mario or Doc: Be better :-p

[Cyphus]

i'm not really looking for character specific strategies. I meant to only show a selected cast that can give Doc trouble.
like i said, i have my own experiences, as anyone else, so certain matchups are easier or harder for me...and thats all irrelevant.

The fact my doc is NOT perfect and i CANNOT beat certain characters played by certain people ALL the time.

I'm looking to chooese a correct secondary to work with, that will Best defend doc's counters.

i'm curious to know who everone else uses, how their actual, Real matchups go(not strategies), and after plenty consideration who ya'll believe would best fit as Doc's counter-defense?

[meepxzero]

Just mario only now =p. Maybe jiggly or ice climbers would be my secondary just cause i use wop tactics with mario on floaty characters and ice climbers are just fun to play :D . Best secondary for ur case is marth because all the reasons ur losing is characters that out prioritize ur Doc, which you can take advantage of with most characters except marth dittos then Id say switch to shiek cuz shes the true counter for him. Id give u tactics around them with doc/mario, but you probably know them the most you can do against floaty characters is mindgames because thats the reason their hard for mario/doc because they naturally pull better mind games with their insane range :crazy:

Cape its more fun to catch turnips and use them to play mindgames back at peach then caping ;)

Peach: Tough fight due to her recovery being greaty than marios >.> and trade hits a lot.

Samus: Same as Peach, but less annoying, because hes edge guardable.

Marth: Depends on how lucky the marth gets tippers. 60/40

Ganon: Not too hard

[Cyphus]

yes, sheik is in fact my intended Marth counter.
but i don't trust her all that well yet...i'm relatively new to using her against equally-skilled humans. Results are good...but when my toughest fight is against a Ganon....................i kinna begin to wonder.

But u may be right about me using Marth as my 2ndary. It was Falco...but certain characters would still present problems to both falco and doc like peach...and i find him just very stressful to use on smaller or platform levels. Falco is my easiest win against ganon...but my goal is to replace what he defended doc with someone who can do what he did, but more.

I actualy thought it'd be pretty **** cool if i made a truly competitive Zelda and Sheik combo.(not switching in battle) but using both, depending on level and oponent.(i mean..i've already got zelda down...and sheik shouldn't take that long to master :bee: )

Either way..i've narrowed my future 2nd-in-command to Marth or Zelda+Sheik.

but i'd still like to hear from anyone else's experience with doc problems and who they resort to to fend them.
(unless ur just way better than everyone around....cuz that just sux, because its not fun to not have competition)

[stuntcuum3571]

If you dont trust your Sheik...go with Marth.
Marth does better against Peach and Samus(IMO) and does better against Marios and Jiggly(I think a good jiggs does quite well against the Marios)
And your Doc can deal with Sheik and Ganon(if Marth cannot) Plus a Marth ditto is not always a bad thing

[AdamXiah]

Well, here are my observations

Marth

Marth has long range and excellent edgeguarding skills, both which endlessly taunt Dr. Mario, a character with very short range and horrible recovery. I find that Marth is ultimately my worst enemy versus my Dr Mario. Marth's pill cancel with his sword is easy to perform, and spiking Dr Mario down during his recovery seems to be quite common. Dr Mario's cape isn't very efficient versus Marth, for at times Marth would turn around after caped but Dr Mario would still recieve the hit.

Sheik

Dr Mario and Sheik fights are pretty even. Needles are just as effective as pills, if not more. Dr Mario is able to chain throw Sheik quite effectively, and vice versa. Sheik does have a better recovery, but overall, I find that these fights are usually even.

Fox/Falco

Dr Mario has the edge for these fights. Dr Mario's cape is effective versus Falco's laser but not Fox's laser. Chain throws are quite difficult, but throw combos are quite easy to perform. Fox/Falco's recovery is hindered by Dr Mario's cape or back aerial A intercept.

Samus

Dr Mario really has a huge advantage over Samus. Samus' missiles and blasts are easily reflected by Dr Mario's cape. Samus' recovery bomb jump can be disrupted by Dr Mario's intercept.

These are my observations, and can easily vary between players.

[MetaKnight0]

All the characters you listed as bad match-ups can be dealt with if you've got a good Fox.

[maelstrom218]

I'd say that anyone w/a disjointed hitbox has a definite advantage over Mario/Doc. The main problem for the two--at least for me--always involves trying to slip into the opponent's range while becoming horribly vulnerable in the process. The fact that Mario/Doc have to make themselves vulnerable just to get their own attacks in against opponents w/disjointed hitboxes is a serious problem. . .not even OOS WD'ing, spot-dodging, and dash attacks can guarantee a decent hit. That being said, I think that Marth and Samus (and Link to a lesser extent) have an advantage over Mario.

It's already been explained why Samus and Marth are hard to beat. . .but Link is also a problem b/c of his darn sword, and his projectiles. A properly played Link--one who sets up bomb/boomerang combos and creates an impassable wall of projectiles--is difficult to fight against. Even when using the Cape to reflect projectiles, a good Link will exploit the Cape's lag w/another projectile or sword attack, and navigating the bombs, boomerang and sword is a bit demanding. . .Link is susceptible to u-tilt/AUA juggles though, more so than much of the cast, IMO.

AdamXiah, I have to disagree w/you on your assessment of Doc vs. Samus, b/c Samus clearly has the advantage here. . .caping missiles isn't going to completely eliminate the threat, as firing a missile after missile cancelling can easily counter that, or Samus could just jump over the reflected missile. Caping also has hugely exploitable ending lag. And a Samus is IMPOSSIBLE to edgeguard if the person knows what their doing. . .bomb DI makes ledgehopped ABAs hard to land, not including the countless options Samus has when recovering--sweetspotting the ledge w/grapple beam, walljumping, screw attack, 3rd jump w/grapple beam, beam cancelling. Samus is also difficult to combo b/c of her floatiness, and has those long disjointed-hitbox legs of hers that outrange any of Doc/Mario's attacks. . .she's definitely not easy to beat.

[meepxzero]

Not too sure about mario giving link a hard time... he can be chain thrown and juggled to death with utllts. uair juggles mite be a little harder as u have to utilt them first to begin them because of his weight. You just gotta mix uair and utilts to juggle him just like how you would with the rest of the fast fallers, but to a lesser extent.

[Cyphus]

i can't say there are any Link threats in my area...we do have some dedicated Link players...but mine is probably still considered better........which isn't saying much.

either way...if i had to narrow my fears to one, it'd be peach. Even when using MARTH...peach is still a ***** to fight. Her **** turnips...u WANT to just slash through them..but then they hit u on the way back down!..and u'd have to be an idiot to catch them as Marth...because he has a horribly slow throw animation that leaves him open, that is if u manage to even release it from ur hand.

Either way...i'll have him and sheik to deal w/ peach...they're prolly better than everyone else, anyway.


MetaKnight0..i'd use Fox, but i just dislike his character and heroic personality. Realistically i'm just as good using him as i would be any of my "bests" as i showed by getting 1 stocked against a Marth player whom also 1 stocked my Doc, Zelda, and Falco in a state tourney i hosted a couple months back.(yea..no luck for me!...He ended up getting 2nd to his bud...but i challenged 1st place, and 2 stocked him...so...yea...if only they had fought each other before i was up :mad: )

anywho...I really think i'm going to dedicate to marth...he's just alot more fun to use than sheik, whom i worry i'd get sick of rather quickly if played her as one of my true main. I'll just save her as a last resort reinforcement.

So this should be my tier-skilled future line-up...
1.Doc, Marth
2.Falco, Sheik, Zelda

that outta work....


but what about ya'll? does ya'll Mario/Doc just beat everyone u fight or do u have some form of backup for certain characters?

[Bob Money]

hmm falcon is good ceot vs peach and Marth def is good vs all those.
But really can u go wrong with Sheik?
Ah ihate sheik tho i would never use her, shes like the opppsite of cool
Cool=Doc
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Happosai]

just my 2 cents:

I use doc, sheik and climbers as my main, followed up by marth, samus and zelda

It depends on which character you are facing so:

Peach:

i always start off with sheik against a sheik to see how they play and if i win, its okay, if i lose i would rather not use doc, he holds some disadvantages against peach which brings up the recovery, you cant stop peach whereas peach can stop you, just trow a turnip while you can stop it with a cape or ABA him to death, i would never use the climbers either against a peach, she totally rapes them in my oppinion, i 3 stock my friends fox which is just as good as his peach, but his peach 3 stocks me. with doc i sometimes win but i ahve to be lucky.

Marth:

sheik time over here, id never use doc unless i know i can somehow beat them, his edgeguarding just rapes the doc completely with his horrible recovery

Fox/Falco:

this is easy, just cape ledgehopped ABA or whatever to prevent them from recover. on the ground and in the air, you need to be care ful and get good hits in, when they are off the edge and beneath it so they cant forward b, they dead
with the climbers i rape them, and sheik needs to be careful but she'll make it

Sheik:

here you can spoil her recovery as well, jump out ABA or cape her before she grabs the edge.
watch out for the needles cause she'll spoil your recovery for sure, never leave yourself open and use a lot of pills here, an eventual AFA will kill her for sure

Samus:

hmm, it can be difficult yet easy. you can stop her from recovering with both doc and sheik, doc deflects all projectiles so if she ever fires her b attack charged completley she's dead cause your faster :D here again the recovery is way better then docs, but if she lost her extra jump and grappling hook she's finished

[Fasting]

Doc vs Ganon
everyone is making it out to be so easy to defeat a ganon. its really not very easy to get a good ganon off the edge and cape. once theyre off sure cape or do whatever so they dont come back, but getting them off is really difficult.
Fair is basically useless in this matchup, unless used very VERY carefully. ive learned never to try fair if ganon is in the air also. most definitely he'll hit you with his Fair first... and it will be a lot more painful than your fair.
ive found bairs do a good job of keeping him off you but also you still gotta watch out for that Fair of his cause we all know ganon is a beast of a manslut.
uair combos if you can get them in.

for the most part tho i find doc stands a better chance while on the ground against ganon. using DD WD BBQ and IRC to find ways inside his game.

[meepxzero]

Yah ganon u have to play mario/doc differently. His range is dangerous if u keep challenging him to aerial attacks. Its about 50/50 if you take that into consideration, because of his horrid recovery.

[stuntcuum3571]

If you have trouble with Peach, and your Marth cant handle her....Use Sheik.