Ganon vs. Marth

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Well, Thomas Tipman and I were discussing possible strategies to fighting Marth, specifically approaching a defensive Marth. Now, if Zoap's out there, I know his Ganon is trained to beat Marth, so hopefully Zoap or some other good ganon players will respond to this. If anyone has some ideas, go ahead and add your two cents.

[BigGman]

marth could be tough, but i think gannon has a slight advantage. if the marth is staying in one place and counter-attacking, i find it useful to approach on the ground. CC to down tilt marth's aerial attacks can get him to high percents quickly. i think gannon's fair is almost useless in this match unless your sure it will hit. marth's fair is just too quick to even try. gannon's back air is what gives him the advantage, though. that move can match or beat marth's air priorities, and it's strong. jabs stop marth's combos, so jab alot. gannon's grabs hurt marth as well. downthrow to up smash or downsmash can lead to some low percent kills.

edgeguard marth's with "eddie spikes" or forward tilts. most marth's don't sweetspot the edge all the time, so sometimes you can get a free kill if you angle the forward tilt downward.

this matchup is weird because they can both hurt eachother easily. gannon has the power to kill marth where marth lacks a good KO move. but marth has combo ability and priority, which makes him difficult to hit.

[Thomas Tipman]

good stuff bigGman i gotta try some of those strats out, though i approching marth on the ground scares the hell out of me. as for the eddie spikes i got them down well :p .

[AngeloBangelo]

One of the best strats vs Marth is to edge hog, drop, and Up B as Marth's recovering. OMFG ELECTRICICYTY!!!1 But seriously, Use SH double airs for mind games. You can usually jump towards a Marth, expect an Fair, DJ and Uair him. IMO it's all about keep marth in the air and using Bair and Uair. But... I'm not that gosu with Ganondorf so maybe I'm completely wrong.

[SynikaL]

i think gannon's fair is almost useless in this match unless your sure it will hit.

>_>

Maybe against a defensive style Marth, but I find that as a Marth player that likes to constantly apply pressure, Fair is constantly eating through my attacks if I'm not careful. Fair is a good tool against Marth if Ganon spaces properly and allows him to control the tempo of the match in certain key situations (i.e. Marth cornered at the edge of the stage).

Ganon's grab game really hurts Marth, but I feel it's Marth's lack of a high percentage KO move that can hurt him the most. If Ganon can survive past 90 percent, Ganon is in a good position to steal one or two stocks from Marth before he can claim that life.

I play both characters, but I'm inexperienced with fighting Marth with Ganon, which is the reasoning behind the somewhat biased perspective.



-Marthscrub

[Mr. Ganondorf]

I play a lot of Marths but they're noob Marths. One of my friends likes to use counter in the air to stop my combos but I've discovered that upB or a simple fake out is the most satisfying counter punisher, but I don't think pros Counter that much so it may not even be an issue. The marths I've played rely more on their ground game than their air games (like i said, noobs) so I end up eating a lot of f smash, but I also dodge it a lot and punish with dair. A smash b attack into a uair combo works great against marth, maybe it's because the lean back property of the smash b is especially effective against marth, maybe it's because marth is a good weight to be juggles by uair, or maybe its because i loathe and detest marth and uair combos to death are so gratifying. :) I'd also agree that ganon's grab game and his slap are great against marth. But these are just my experiences and i could be wrong on a lot of things. I, more than anyone, need advice against marth because i so badly want to be able to beat sheridan's marth with my ganon, cuz even my c. falcon doesn't beat his marth very often.

[FreddyP]

One thing I've noticed is the effectiveness of Ganon's dthrow against Marth. At low percents, dthrow to ftilt can rack up some damage, and as %s get higher, dthrow to short hop bair is deadly against Marth. On a smaller stage, dthrow to bair can KO at 90-100% easy. With a defensive Marth, it might be more difficult to get grabs in, but if they're counter happy, grabbing should give you the edge. Sorry if this isn't much help.

[CStick]

backward-hopped aerials kill aerial approaching Marths, especially Bair, and reverse Uairs can get through Marth's sword as well.

[BigDaddyFalcon]

Ganon's forward B can't be shield grabbed by Marth. So try to throw that in. I can usually sneak in some forward airs because of its massive range. I find this matchup is usually who has the better spacing so work on that spacing. :evil:

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Wo0t! I knew that the smash b attack was useful against Marth, even tho his grab range is hella annoying it usually doesn't work. I know Bowser sure as hell can't shield grab it, lol at the eddie vs. luke matches.

[SynikaL]

Also, to add something Tipman showed me recently that he's added to his game, I find really annoying:

Fair can beat Marth's Nair. Nair's hit box only extends to the front and the back -- leaving his head and feat completely exposed. Most Marth's feel most comfy approaching with Nair, so what Ganon can do is when he anticipates a Nair approach, just full hop or double jump to get above it and come right down on the top of Marth's cranium with the Fair. >_<



-CynIcaL

[stuntcuum3571]

to add to what Syn just posted, if you would rather stay on the ground, DownB(WHEN TIMED CORRECTLY!!) will eat through nair. just aim for Marth's feet.

[PXTalon2000]

If you're gonna' CC, I recommend mix it up. CC grab, or CC and do something weird like do an aerial. I'm trying to develop a habit of punishing CC better with tipped fair and dair in a shorthop; CC can end up being as harmful as using up a double jump for Ganon sometimes x.x. But then again what tactic isn't a potential headache against Marth?

What do you guys like doing from a grab? When I fight Ganon with Marth I mix up the DI just a bit, usually full ways backwards, and I'm all paranoid about losing my jump so I hit the C-stick in the opposite direction (or up) in hopes of getting a peck at Ganon. If I've grabbed Marth, at low %'s I'll hope for a downthrow into fwdB into down aerial, then tech chase with an aerial hoping for a 0 to death... Just 'cuz I'm super-greedy. Or if I can't get the down aerial I'll uair/bair or whatever, making sure to autocancel it and DI (because I'm greedy and will hope for something else). At higher %'s I go for downthrow to bair regardless of DI. I think I could improve on that, but it seems to work well.

Down B is good. x.x I feel stupid whenever I fall for it (all these matches and gah >_<)

Never fall for the Husband (The Marth who wants easy grab -> edgeguard wins). Usually Marth will be expecting the worst punishment for this obvious course of -hoping you miss an L-cancel- to be a jab when he attempts to grab, so when you're near the edge keep your mind games at their best. Sometimes instead of using an aerial I'll fastfall and grab or upB (Hey, whatever beats shield and gets 'em off... Good range on that move, and if your back is turned Marth often is thinking you want a bair or want him to roll into you; of course it's super risky and if you lose on account of it jus' blame yourself >.> ). [[No offense to Kevin; he actually doesn't like it when people fall for simple stuff like that; that sorta' tactic just started getting called "The Husband" around here]]

When you're recovering... Tech the fsmash!

Syn; mix up timing with your neutral aerial (while keeping an eye out for stupid downB >_<) if you haven't started already. Like, you can delay it for a while, and by the time your shorthop is over you may change plans and perfectly time a fair or uair. Generally when you shorthop at an in air Ganon, there's some perfect spacing and timing where Marth will always win, or a good time to just not to an aerial and avoid the blow. You probably don't need my advice anyways, but it's a good thing to do vs. Ganon for.. umm.. Marth... If anyone reading this cares.

In my opinion careful Marth beats Ganon pretty well. Death combos seem like an eventuality to me; just kinda' need to wait for a good opportunity. But eh, Ken says otherwise. Ken (Ganon) vs Husband (Marth) vids show an effective Ganon style to fight Marth.

[SynikaL]

Ken (Ganon) vs Husband (Marth) vids show an effective Ganon style to fight Marth.

>_>

Ken's Ganon sucks IMO. I wouldn't cite that match as an example.



-Kimosabae
(can't wait to see what kinda craziness I can stir up next)

[PXTalon2000]

Whatever you say 'bout Ken's Ganon, a lot of good people have a lot of trouble beating it. But eh, knowing Ken he might easily agree with you..

[T_MontanaSSBM]

Gannon can definetly go hit for hit with marth well that is what i think

[CStick]

The only thing Ganny has to worry about is fsmash. If he gets caught by the ledge and gets tippered, he's screwed. However, the same goes for Marth, since if he gets knocked hard of the ledge he's looking at some intense interceptions from anyone good at "eddie-spikes" or from Bairs