why doc??

[krimzonwaffle]

wi'll being here in the smash forums i hear alot about how doc is better then mario, when it seems like mario is faster, what makes doc better then mario?

[mitch_guitar]

Doc's pills tend to be favoured over Mario's fireballs and Doc has an easier time KOing than mario. I used to play mario but I got fed up with his lack of killing moves so I switched to Doc and became happy :D

[ronin899]

yep,that above pretty much sums it up for me aswell.

[Mr1337]

pills are good, f-air is yummy

plus docters make so much more than plummmers

[maelstrom218]

Just to expand on what mitchguitar said, even though he put it rather succinctly:

The two major differences between Doc and Mario is knockback power and their projectiles. Mario has such difficulty getting KOs that it's practically ridiculous. He has zero KO moves, and his only move that has KO potential is his f-smash, which is a pain to sweetspot. Having no reliable high knockback moves severely hampers his overall ease of use as a character, since he's then forced to get most of his KOs from edgeguarding or insane damage accumulating combos. Doc doesn't have this problem. Doc can actually KO w/his d-smash (as opposed to Mario's), and his f-air and f-smash are just as powerful.

As for the projectiles, Doc wins hands-down. Pills can be used defensively and offensively, and by varying the Pill's trajectory w/dashed short-hopped or full-jumped Pills, you can pressure the opponent since you can follow directly behind the Pill and take advantage of your opponent's reaction (a la missile cancelling w/Samus). Pill Rushing does really scary stuff when used correctly. Mario's fireball just can't do that. . .you can do some projectile spamming at long range, and some fireball-spiking (aka hondoconshohoken-something like that), but otherwise, you don't have the advanced options w/the fireball as you do w/the Pill.

Other minor differences that add up: Doc has a better Cape than Mario, in that the hitbox is ridiculously huge, at least compared to Mario's. It makes it tons easier to edgeguard and reflect, and possibly attack (in the few cases that you actually want to use the Cape that way). In addition, Doc has greater range on a few key aerials, namely the b-air and f-air. Doc's b-air not only has more range, but has better diagonal downwards knockback, which makes it perfect for edgeguarding. Doc's u-air also has less knockback, making it easier to combo.

Mario doesn't really have that much on Doc. The only thing he has going for him is a longer ranged f-smash (which does come in handy quite a bit), a slightly better recovery due to his floaty Cape, his u-tilt (which is an insane combo starter/continuer), a weird up-b walljump glitch, the ability to walljump, and slightly less lag/duration on his aerials than Doc--usually by 1 or 2 frames.

So in short, Doc is the more practical character than Mario, as he's easier to use due to his better range, projectile, and KO potential.

[white peachy]

doc's bair is also awesome. :psycho:

and everything else that's already been mentioned.

[MetaKnight0]

maelstrom makes lots of good points, but I have a few beefs/questions.

1. I don't see how having more knockback on Mario's Up Air makes it any harder to combo. It's not that hard to combo with either one of their Up Aerials anyways.

2. How much larger is Doc's Cape then Mario's? If it IS bigger, than almost certainly the difference is negligible and doesn't show itself often.

3. I really don't see why anyone would think sweet-spotting the Forward Smash is such a hassle. Yes, the Forward Smash conflicts with Mario's other good ground moves and where they have to be placed (i.e. close to the opponent), but it's not like Marth's sword where you have this puny sliver for a sweetspot. You don't have to be THAT close to the opponent. Hell, I have a harder time NOT sweet-spotting it then getting it to sweet-spot.

4. Mario has a great option out of Down Throw that Doc doesn't have on a few key characters (i.e. Marth, Sheik, and anyone else around that weight and fallspeed), and that's his Forward Smash.

[Rockettrainer]

I prefer Doc over Mario because he has more finishing moves, his pills are better, and his cape is much easier to use to stop someone's comback than Mario's.

[krimzonwaffle]

thanks guys, it really helped, im going to use doc to now, its just mario allways seemed a little better :)

[The Cape]

Mario is better than Doc, but takes alot more work to become so.

Kind of like Fox being better than Falco, but Fox actually takes effort to play.

[FireEmblem81387]

Dr. Mario's attacks are much stronger than Mario. The Megavitamins are stronger too. I guess all this makes him the most favored.

The only thing I have to say is that his jumps aren't that higher, similar to Ganondorf. NOT GOOD! Other than that, his improvement in strength is what makes Dr. Mario better than Mario.

[MetaKnight0]

Dr. Mario's attacks are much stronger than Mario. The Megavitamins are stronger too. I guess all this makes him the most favored.

The only thing I have to say is that his jumps aren't that higher, similar to Ganondorf. NOT GOOD! Other than that, his improvement in strength is what makes Dr. Mario better than Mario.

Harharhar. Lots of things other than strength determines why some see Doc more favourable.

I concur with The Cape.

[CuckooOfTime]

Though I personally prefer Doc, The Cape is right. Mario's speed over doc can really work wonders for him, as well as the longer-ranged fsmash. He does take more effort, though, so I'd stick with Doc, then if you really get good work your way up to Mario. They're similar enough to be able to be learned about just by playing the other, unlike Fox and Falco who are played completely differently.

[Cyphus]

Cape: you r so full of bull****l lol =D
u know it wasn't that long ago you preached Doc was better in every aspect then mario! Did u actually have a change of heart, or just seeing how many people r going to agree w/ ya?

Of course, personally..i play and prefer Doc, but i donnot think he is anything more than slightly better.
And to counter some points..doc's F.Smash actually can be linked from a d.throw too.

And his UpAir, while not setting then up vertically as much....has weaker knockback, and therefore actually allowing him to chase them shuffling into UpTilt into repetitions or a finished(shuffled F.air, F.Smash)
This makes doc require alot more dificulty in comboing, but nonetheless allows him to lead into finishers at later damages that mario simply cannot.
I believe doc has more potential and requires a higher difficulty to use it all, but it appears the opposite because the Average Doc can do better than the Average Mario by using a simpler game, because he is naturally better. Mario, while lacking the settups Forces the player to learn to combo alot earlier than a Doc would, and therefore the player becomes more technically demandent to match an equal doc.
But an advanced Doc is just a fry larger of a combo.

anywho...
I personally think Mario's UpSmash in underrated and should be used more against the SpaceAnimals. From an UpThrow at lower damage you can chase their DI and UpSmash then chase their DI again for a 2nd, many times.(usually setting up for an aerial pursuit) But once that damage is dealt its pretty obsolete to his UpTilt again.

[maelstrom218]

Originally posted by krimzonwaffle
thanks guys, it really helped, im going to use doc to now, its just mario allways seemed a little better

:cry: Dear God no, I didn't want to convert you to Doc. . .that wasn't my intention at all! :cry:

Alright, here's the deal: Doc is easier to play than Mario, b/c he has stronger knockback on his KO moves, and has an easier time getting KOs as opposed to Mario, who has to gradually rack up damage through difficult combos. Doc's also easier to play b/c he has an effective defensive/offensive projectile which creates immense pressure on the opponent. Doc is also better b/c he has more range on his b-air and f-air.

However, Doc's attacks aren't necessarily stronger. In fact, in terms of aerials, Mario inflicts more damage than Doc. In addition, Mario isn't that much faster than Doc. . .as I've said before, the speed difference in aerials is negligible, w/Mario having a 1-2 frame advantage. In all other things (except the AAA combo) Mario is the same speed as Doc.

So, what does Mario have that Doc doesn't? He has a longer-ranged f-smash, which ennables him to outrange certain characters like Doc, Luigi, Fox, etc. The f-smash practically counts as a disjointed hitbox, and it's truly a decent attack due to its range, even though it has to be sweetspotted. Furthermore, Mario also has the Cape, and the aerial boost you get can be used from recovery to mindgames to aerial stalling to escape potential hits. Finally, Mario has the u-tilt, which is the supreme combo starter/juggler.

What Mario has that Doc doesn't is versatility. Combine the above (especially the u-tilt) w/the fact that Mario can walljump, and you have a character that can combo **** near anyone, can utilize a number of ridiculous recovery options, has great air and ground mobility, and can do any number of effective and unexpected tricks. Depending on how good your mindgames are and how impressive your technical skill is, you can make Mario pretty darn scary. . .but it takes lots of effort; you just have to tap into his versatility to make him really work. But when you do, Mario stops being just an Italian Plumber, and becomes something more. . .more than Doc, at any rate.

Originally posted by MetaKnight0
maelstrom makes lots of good points, but I have a few beefs/questions.

1. I don't see how having more knockback on Mario's Up Air makes it any harder to combo. It's not that hard to combo with either one of their Up Aerials anyways.

2. How much larger is Doc's Cape then Mario's? If it IS bigger, than almost certainly the difference is negligible and doesn't show itself often.

3. I really don't see why anyone would think sweet-spotting the Forward Smash is such a hassle. Yes, the Forward Smash conflicts with Mario's other good ground moves and where they have to be placed (i.e. close to the opponent), but it's not like Marth's sword where you have this puny sliver for a sweetspot. You don't have to be THAT close to the opponent. Hell, I have a harder time NOT sweet-spotting it then getting it to sweet-spot.

4. Mario has a great option out of Down Throw that Doc doesn't have on a few key characters (i.e. Marth, Sheik, and anyone else around that weight and fallspeed), and that's his Forward Smash.

1. More knockback means that there's more time for DI and more time to recover, and therefore more difficulty for you to follow up. If moves knock the opponent too far away, how can you continue the combo? Doc's u-air has less knockback; therefore, it's easier to combo with. You'll notice that a lot of times when you're doing u-air chains w/Mario, you have to dash, then shffl u-air instead of just shffl'ing. . .it's b/c the u-air has slightly too much knockback.

2. If you have AR, then you can see the hitbox sizes between Doc and Mario's Cape. IIRC, Doc's Cape has a hitbox size that's anywhere from 1.5-2 times larger than Mario's. It goes a lot more beneath the ledge, too.

3. Well, you've probably learned to sweetspot the f-smash by now. But as you said that I said, the f-smash can't necessarily be used out of jabs or grabs (although at certain percents and w/the situational DI, it can. . .) b/c it at times conflicts w/the range on Mario's other ground moves. It may not be difficult most of the time, but it's another thing to worry about. . .why would you ever want a situational KO move for a character that already has difficulty KO'ing opponents? Not having a reliable KO move means that Mario has to carefully set up for a KO, he can't simply smash like almost every other character in the game. . .that in itself is a hassle.

4. Mario's d-throw to f-smash is situational. What if you don't correctly anticipate their DI? What if they techroll quickly out of the way? Although I don't have my cube on me to test it out, I'd say that you'd only have a less than reliable chance at pulling it off b/c of DI/techrolling.

[MetaKnight0]

Oh my lord. I just typed out an enormous post, and copied it. IE crashes and the clipboard item is no where to be seen. BS.

I'll edit this back with my post when I feel up to re-typing it.

[Lagmaster]

Although I use Doc over Mario, they both have their advantages and disadvantages....its all about how you play and who works for you.

[keeeen]

The speed advantage, and fsmash reach advantage are VERY noticable if your main is mario and you go to DOC. Some of the combos and finishers used for each will be completeley useless if used with the other.

Mario may not have as many kill moves or raw power as Doc, but using mind games and Mario's natural versaility and speed advantage makes opponents think that they are fighting a character twice as fast, which obviously isn't the case. Tricking your opponent into thinking Mario can jump WAY higher then Doc (by use of cape and liberal air games) can also curb opponents into being more scared of the plumber.

It gets down to style though. I am WAY better with my Mario then Doc, simply because I am USED to the way Mario NEEDS to be played to win, and I depend HEAVILLY on Mario's slight speedier and more reactive controls, not to mention the divine range of the F smash to scare the **** out of closequarters chars who try to outreach you.

[Rip]

I prefer playing with Mario than doc mario, because of is speed, and I don't know why, but doc mario has a lot of killing moves, , but i prefer mario because of his speed.

[AngeloBangelo]

I like Doc more. Simply because with Mario, although you can spam projectiles, you can't say hilarious one-liners. Examples: "Take your medicine." or "These 'Roofies' are a real knockout."