Who Doc Counters

[supermariopro101]

Nah, yithkai is just talking about using Doc's f-smash after a d-throw. . .and that's actually a viable "combo" option, given that you can correctly anticipate the opponent's DI and that the opponent is in a very specific % range. It works, and even if Link should techroll, the techroll takes much longer than Doc's recovery from the f-smash, so he should be safe. . .it's an acceptable risk, if risk at all.

Dash attack is. . .a bit odd, mostly b/c Doc is starved for vertical launchers. Gea once said that Doc lacks a single, decent vertical launcher, and this is the honest truth. U-tilt is situational, u-smash has startup lag, u/d-throw is dependent on whether or not you can grab. . .really, the only launchers that Doc has are u/d-throws and dash attack. It's b/c Doc is starved for vertical launchers that the dash attack looks so appealing. . .lagginess and all else aside, the dash attack does have great IASA frames, and the hitbox is ridiculously large, so it's certainly a viable option. It's a great vertical launcher. . .just very, very risky. It certainly has its place (hey, vert launchers are always a good thing), but ignoring it just b/c it's risky would be a mistake, methinks.

OOPPPSS!!!! I thought he was just talking about an fsmash out of the blue. Guess I should read it instead of scan.

[I think]The dash attack if it missed would be too much lag especiall to link who can take advantage with a dair or dtilt. I didn't say it should never be used, i said it should ALMOST never be used. I guess your right as long as doc doesn't miss but the oppurtunity is great if countered. Usmash doesn't have near as much lag as the dash so it is the better move. Can you give me a situation when docs dash attack would come in handy.

[maelstrom218]

[I think]The dash attack if it missed would be too much lag especiall to link who can take advantage with a dair or dtilt. I didn't say it should never be used, i said it should ALMOST never be used. I guess your right as long as doc doesn't miss but the oppurtunity is great if countered. Usmash doesn't have near as much lag as the dash so it is the better move. Can you give me a situation when docs dash attack would come in handy.

The problem w/the u-smash as a vertical launcher is if it's not being combo'd into (like after an u-tilt right below an opponent) its value as a vertical launcher is very small. The whole point of a (good) vertical launcher is that it starts up fast and has little ending lag so that the opponent who was popped up into the air is perfectly set up to receive consecutive hits. Sheik's f-tilt certainly qualifies as does Mario's u-tilt, as does Roy's d-tilt, etc. . .you get the idea. Good vertical launchers means fast startup, low ending lag, and proper placement from the launcher's knockback.

Of course, the thing is that you need a good vertical launcher to satisfy all of the aforementioned requirements before it can be considered good. Too much startup lag, and the opponent can see it coming; too much ending lag and you can't follow up; if it doesn't pop the opponent up in the right way, then you'll have a hard time comboing. . .all fairly obvious. U-smash suffers from having noticeable startup lag; people can see it coming.

Dash attack, on the other hand, while having excellent startup time, suffers from severe ending lag. . .except, like Roy's d-tilt, the IASA frames allow you to act reasonably sooner than you expect, which is a good thing. If you hit at medium percentages, there's really no reason for the ending lag to screw up any combo opportunities. . .it isn't as bad as you think. If anything, the dash attack works better than the u-smash as a vertical launcher, b/c the short startup time means that it's more difficult to avoid. Underrated and risky, but the dash attack is useful nonetheless.

As to when you should use the dash attack, I have no idea. I don't play Doc. >_>

Maybe it might work as an unconventional combo continuer of sorts; after a shffl'd u-air, you could opt for a dash attack -> u-tilt -> some crazy Captain Jack-style finishing thingy instead of another shffl'd u-air. Or maybe you could somehow bait the opponent into spot-dodging, since the long duration of the dash attack makes spot-dodging useless.

I really have no idea. Time to get Gea in here.

[supermariopro101]

As to when you should use the dash attack, I have no idea. I don't play Doc. >_>

Maybe it might work as an unconventional combo continuer of sorts; after a shffl'd u-air, you could opt for a dash attack -> u-tilt -> some crazy Captain Jack-style finishing thingy instead of another shffl'd u-air. Or maybe you could somehow bait the opponent into spot-dodging, since the long duration of the dash attack makes spot-dodging useless.

I really have no idea. Time to get Gea in here.

I thought you used to play doc before you switched to mario. Anyways, I see what your saying now. All I've got to say is when I use mario, I always (if I ever use it) try to put the opponent in front of me which means you have to be really close.

To gea,
When would Docs sweep be useful or an option.

[dr.neo]

I dont get it. I use the baseball slide to catch them of guard then start my combo. After i baseball slide i up a punch and i can keep the combo going from there switching from chain grabbing to up smashing.

[McD]

huh....fasinating...lol

I always though Doc would be really good against Samus...but maybe its just cause my freind aint that good..lol

[mood4food77]

doc is good against floaties except jiggs and zelda, the pill stops peach's down smash, he can reflect samus' projectiles, kirby....just isn't that good, the fair kills all of them at around 70%, zelda has the foot and jiggs just WoP doc to death

[MyKo]

doc really rapes falco/fox weight chars. esp falcon maybe..

doc is small, floaty-ish, and can pester people if used correctly with pills.

doc can counter many, it also depends on the person..

[Runt]

Marth, peach, ganondorf and C. Falcon seem like hard fights 4 doc.

[quak]

i don't think doc counters, he's just really well balanced and and beat anyone if the doc is good enough

[Gea]

<.< Thanks Maelstrom, for keeping up. I've been having a busy few weeks. I really appreciate it.

[co_and_me]

I dont get why you guys are team low teir? who is low teir out of you? Roy? also my last question is what is the launch that luigi has?

[actionlen]

I think doc counters Falco and fox, samus pickachu and allot of low tiers

[Gea]

Luigi has downsmash and utilt as two launchers. His big one is downsmash though. Sends them straight up a good bit, great to start combos.

[JayRo]

I think he either counters/has a great match against most characters. I do pretty well against samus, cf, marth, falco and fox, but the Plummer Brothers give me a goood challenge, except the cape kinda hurts their edge game.

[dr.neo]

i don't think doc counters, he's just really well balanced and and beat anyone if the doc is good enough
that is a seriously smart thing to say and it is very true too.

[mood4food77]

his worst match-up is marth, his best matchh-up (high-tiered wise) is sheik

[Cyphus]

in my opinion, marth, jigs, capt., and link are his counters.
Even fights are samus, peach, mario, sheik, fox, falco, and zelda.
and everyone else he either has a slight advantage or counters.

either way..i'm not big on the whole "counter-character" thing. Sure i'll use what i believe in a tournament. But for the most part, even if the players are at the exact same high skill level, 90% of the match should be from their creativity and not the character.
If you go in fighting marth, thinking he has this HUGE advantage over you, you'll going to get raped. Adaptation works around all counters. Marth > Jigs? Everytime marth attempts a grab, jigs can duck it then Rest him. :P

[TTemp]

Well said Cyphus, it'sabout time somebody shut these people up concerning counter characters. Sure, when I find that after the first match in a tourney is getting raped and I cant adapt my strategy, I'll switch to Peach, or Marth, or anyone else.......but for the most part a player should in theory be able to augment his playing style and accommadate for any challenge. I personally believe that though there are "counters" to Doc and Doc "counters" some characters, that by NO MEANS means that the matches you play can be pre-determined by the characters you use. That's ridiculous. Just learn the inner workings of the characters you play with, that way, you can adapt them to any situation, and reall suprise some idiot who brags about winning because "My character's a counter to your character, you don't stand a chance"....

[six]

if counters were the end-all be-all there'd be no point in playing the game - people would just pick their characters and whoever's character was better wins, period. there are still some characters better outfitted for certain fights, however. you can't tell me you'd rather be bowser against sheik than the ice climbers against sheik, it's just madness. but bowser isn't necessarily a bad character - he even gives fox a run for his money.

as for doc, i'd say he gets messed up by jiggs, marth, and falcon. i haven't played enough links as doc t make a call on that one. everything else is even or better.

[Mew2King]

Doc counters Fox

This is coming from an expert Fox player, so take my word for it.

[Damax]

Mew2King: you might only not be used to it, stage does have a HUGE part in this matchup. It isn't a perfect counter but let's say its better than taking Link X_x

Doc can do well (not counter) against Falco, Falcon, Fox.

However its nothing near a true counter IMO like Sheik/Fox/Falco can be to Link.

get ****ed by Marth, Jiggs, Link

Please note that Link might be quite harder to master than the other twos. So unless your opponent is germ, kubuu, whatever good link there is out there Doc can still get him.

Doc as a slight advantage over Luigi as he can even cape him while he try to sweetspot. I was playing my friend who's luigi's about as good as my doc or maybe somewhat better. we both had a hard time getting back on the stage. but he was having a harder time due to cape. (you can cape his forward B or even back air em cause he's harmless and prevent his recovery) Doc can sometimes only Up B to stage and prevent any Luigi edgeguard. but Luigi can never do that up b straight to stage.

[TheSlurminator]

Marth > Jigs? Everytime marth attempts a grab, jigs can duck it then Rest him. :POnly if they are dumb and JC the grab.