Come on, lets give the N a bit of credit.

[LightHeaded]

A lot of people aren't giving Nintendo enough credit when it comes to their knowledge of SSBM. I see a lot of people saying, "Well, I don't know if Nintendo knows about what goes on in advanced play.", or, "I'm not sure that Nintendo knows how bad this character is." I'm sure Nintendo knows all about the tier lists and advanced play. They know what to adjust, what to fix, what to take out, and what to leave in for SSBB. I wouldn't worry about them making any huge mistakes like making a low tier character much worse, messing up the SHFFL'd attacks, or leaving wavedash out. That just sounds silly to me.

[SMB PORTAL]

A lot of people aren't giving Nintendo enough credit when it comes to their knowledge of SSBM. I see a lot of people saying, "Well, I don't know if Nintendo knows about what goes on in advanced play.", or, "I'm not sure that Nintendo knows how bad this character is." I'm sure Nintendo knows all about the tier lists and advanced play. They know what to adjust, what to fix, what to take out, and what to leave in for SSBB. I wouldn't worry about them making any huge mistakes like making a low tier character much worse, messing up the SHFFL'd attacks, or leaving wavedash out. That just sounds silly to me.

Not to be rude, but can you please give us something that can assure us that they do take it seriously. I mean, I don't really know what to think because nobody ever has back-up to prove their point.

-SMB

[LightHeaded]

Not to be rude, but can you please give us something that can assure us that they do take it seriously. I mean, I don't really know what to think because nobody ever has back-up to prove their point.

-SMB

Look at all of the big Nintendo franchises. There have been tons of Marios, Metroids, and Zeldas and each new one is still good. The transition from SSB to SSBM was a great one. I mean, do I really need evidence to show that Nintendo knows what they are doing? I am sure they weren't just lucky with the huge amount of Marios, Metroids, and Zeldas that they have been making for years.

[Mann]

Not to be rude, but can you please give us something that can assure us that they do take it seriously. I mean, I don't really know what to think because nobody ever has back-up to prove their point.

-SMB

-The fact that they are making SSBB as an opener for the Revolution. Also, E3.
-The different versions they have made.
-If they don't take it seriously, then these games wouldn't have been made. It's a business. It's a profit. What, were they just fooling around when they made this game? Well... in some cases they could. :)

[BentoBox]

Look at all of the big Nintendo franchises. There have been tons of Marios, Metroids, and Zeldas and each new one is still good. The transition from SSB to SSBM was a great one. I mean, do I really need evidence to show that Nintendo knows what they are doing? I am sure they weren't just lucky with the huge amount of Marios, Metroids, and Zeldas that they have been making for years.

Flawed argument. As far as I know, there were no competitive scenes on mario games, metroid games... I don't remember any for the zelda series either~ Do you? Thought so.
By making this game (ssbb), they won't necessarily have us(competitive smashers) in mind, as we're only a tiny portion of the amount of SSBM players around the world. Do you think Nintendo foretells a drop in sales if WDing is not in? No, in fact, 80% of the people owning smash worldwide couldn't careless as they don't even participate in tourneys.

[Mario 64 Master]

I simply do not believe that they can make a perfect game for high levels of competitive play without a huge amount of input from highly competitive players. What's to hope for is that they're going to get pretty close, which I believe they can, and that will definitely be good enough.

What I have most experience with is high level stadium competition. I can think of many highly advanced small niche details that the game would benefit from the developers keeping in mind.

Just think of the original 4556.6 foot limit in version 1.0. C'mon, how insanely easy would it have been to avoid a ton of annoyance and troubles if they had just made it longer? (I don't know details about coding the game itself, but I assume it would have been pretty **** easy to make the track 100 times longer, just to ensure we never reached the end. Which they probably did not even consider, or thought would be fixed with a new 11345.2 limit... wrong again.)

How about frame counting woes? Score changes and total changes often miss corresponding by a frame because of how the game counts time. This can be fixed by adopting a timer more similar to Mario Kart's. (MK basically uses and internal clock to count by real thousandths of a second, and then displays on the next frame exactly what it should to correspond to the exact time the kart crosses the finish line. SSB and SSBM simply assign a time stamp to each frame and figure out on which frame the last target is broken, in the example of BtT.)

You have to face the fact that these guys are geniuses at drawing character models, designing fun levels, and other aspects of making a fun game. What they can't necessarily do is pick up on bugs or other minor problems that could arise through the progression of the game caused by hundreds of people playing and discussing the game for hundreds of hours.

I'll go back an reemphasize the fact that I agree that Nintendo deserves credit for doing a great job. Just saying that they can't be perfect.

[LightHeaded]

Flawed argument. As far as I know, there were no competitive scenes on mario games, metroid games... I don't remember any for the zelda series either~ Do you? Thought so.
By making this game (ssbb), they won't necessarily have us(competitive smashers) in mind, as we're only a tiny portion of the amount of SSBM players around the world. Do you think Nintendo foretells a drop in sales if WDing is not in? No, in fact, 80% of the people owning smash worldwide couldn't careless as they don't even participate in tourneys.

I said they knew what they were doing, they were taking things seriously, and they wouldn't ruin the gameplay. I used Mario, Metroid and Zelda for evidence of my previous statement. I don't remember ever mentioning competitive play when I used those examples~ Do you? Seems that way, so maybe you ought to reread this thread.
Also, while Nintendo may be catering the to majority, competitive gamers still make up a considerable portion of their customers in this case and they would keep us in mind. (You provide no evidence whatsoever for your "competitive smashers make up 20% of the people who own the game" figure, but 20% is still a lot.) Adjusting characters to make them better or worse to balance the tier lists wouldn't hurt the non-competitive gamers. Taking out wavedashes or messing up SHFFL'd attacks wouldn't either. So, in response to the above quote... Flawed argument.

[Mann]

How was that a 'flawed' arguement when there was no arguement. Just stating.

[Office_Shredder]

By moderator request, I'm posting this here (moved from the thread I made):

Seriously, these companies pay people to search online and research what people want in their games. I'm sure someone there is keeping an eye on these boards

[xZero Beatx]

By moderator request, I'm posting this here (moved from the thread I made):

Seriously, these companies pay people to search online and research what people want in their games. I'm sure someone there is keeping an eye on these boards
Might even be Office_Shredder. The evil shredder of dreams and paper.

I'm sure Nintendo knows about all of the advanced tecniques by now, it'd be pretty hard not to know, especially them.

[Office_Shredder]

The evil shredder of dreams and paper.

:eek:

Do you know how many people have not gotten that reference?

You are my new hero

[Lord HDL]

If Nintendo did not keep the competitive gamers in mind, they would have not included l-canceling (in both games), powershielding, jump canceling up smashes (they overlooked JCed grabs), dash cancel (they added this in Melee, was nonexistent in SSB), DI (severly fixed, it was poor in SSB), more grab frames (too fast in SSB) and dash grabs, air dodges, bracing yourself when you tumble in the air, meteor canceling, wall/ledge teching, up Bs that cancel directly into grabbing the ledge if sweetspotted right (example, Fox’s up B), and a bunch of other specific crap. I don’t think Nintendo believes the casual gamer will focus on these things at all, much less actually know of their existence.

[Typh]

Umm, guys. It's plain ignorant to say nintendo hasn't noticed that their biggest franchise is an MLG competitive game.

[Devastlian]

I think it might be worse than ignorant. I doubt they haven't tweaked any characters without thinking "Could Ken win a tournament with [this character] now?"

[Office_Shredder]

I think it might be worse than ignorant. I doubt they haven't tweaked any characters without thinking "Could Ken win a tournament with [this character] now?"

Except that's a bad question to ask. The question should be something more like:

Could office_shredder win a tournament with this character now?

If the answer is yes, it's ovepowered ;)

[Neo_Morphix]

I'm with Nintendo and will always be. Nintendo knows, better than all other companies what the videogame business is like and what to do. They DO KNOW about advanced play, if you want an example just look at the Super Smash Bros. Series! I know advanced play in this games started off by using glitches and bugs players began to find in this games... but do you know why did this happened? because SSB is game made for players to be able to play games from fun-games to competitive and Advanced games. You also have the Metroid Series, and many other games. The big N knows it's game.

A lot of people aren't giving Nintendo enough credit when it comes to their knowledge of SSBM. I see a lot of people saying, "Well, I don't know if Nintendo knows about what goes on in advanced play.", or, "I'm not sure that Nintendo knows how bad this character is." I'm sure Nintendo knows all about the tier lists and advanced play. They know what to adjust, what to fix, what to take out, and what to leave in for SSBB. I wouldn't worry about them making any huge mistakes like making a low tier character much worse, messing up the SHFFL'd attacks, or leaving wavedash out. That just sounds silly to me.

It also sounds completely silly to me. Nintendo WILL consider all those who play this game using shffld's, WD, waveshine, advanced edge-guarding, shine-combos, teching, edge-teching, etc., etc.

You can be sure of one thing, and that is, Super Smash Bros. Brawl will be more times greater than Melee as Melee is greater than the original Super Smash Bros. (For those of you who preffer original SSB rather than Melee, I'm sure you have your reasons and I absolutely respect that, but to me it takes a whole lot of effort and dedication to make a sequel better than the prequel, it's very, very rare for it to happen, and to me SSBM accomplished this, and greatly).

Just trust Sakurai-San, and of couse, the big N. :)

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Nintendo knows what they're doing. They refused to do this game without the original creator as director, they have online forums asking for players input on everything from characters to levels to items. Not to mention the outside studio they brought in(coughtreasurecough) are HUGE fans of the GC version and are about as obsessed with the game as the competitive scene is.

[Sytar]

They added Pit and Metaknight.

If you don't think Nintendo doesn't know exactly what is your dreams when you think of Super Smash at night, you're a freakin' dumbas5.

[BentoBox]

I said they knew what they were doing, they were taking things seriously, and they wouldn't ruin the gameplay. I used Mario, Metroid and Zelda for evidence of my previous statement. I don't remember ever mentioning competitive play when I used those examples~ Do you? Seems that way, so maybe you ought to reread this thread. Also, while Nintendo may be catering the to majority, competitive gamers still make up a considerable portion of their customers in this case and they would keep us in mind. (You provide no evidence whatsoever for your "competitive smashers make up 20% of the people who own the game" figure, but 20% is still a lot.) Adjusting characters to make them better or worse to balance the tier lists wouldn't hurt the non-competitive gamers. Taking out wavedashes or messing up SHFFL'd attacks wouldn't either. So, in response to the above quote... Flawed argument.

Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker gave me nightmares =3. And I am not the only one who felt the same way about these 2 games. But Nintendo knew what they were doing right? And they sure always knew how to please the fanbase :). Or maybe they weren't serious enough at that time? You tell me.

And remember that Nintendo didn't really intend this game to be competitive. They couldn't really fortell that we'd abuse the physics engine at this point. The players are the ones who made the game competitive, who kept finding new discoveries thus adding depth in our gameplay by substancial amounts, not Nintendo. But the people on these boards are the ones who would care a lot if the gameplay was tweaked and if several 'advanced techniques' weren't to exist on SSBM's sequel. SSB used to be very competite aswell, it had its own tier list and all~ And I'm sure they had our tier lists in mind by looking at the way kirby and ness got 'nerfed'. Is that what you call "balancing"?
(Fox for low-tier!)

It's funny tho because in your first post, you talk as if Nintendo knew exactly what WE (competitive smashers) would want in the next sequel, and develop the game accordingly... SSBM is a big leap when compared to SSB64 and I expect the same kind of evolution from SSBM to its next sequel. Surely, if all those adv.techniques were to stay in the game (meaning there would be no need for us to adapt to anything at all), can we really consider it as a new game and not simply as a SSBM with simply more chars and levels? Even if thay have us in mind, this IS a NEW game they're developing.

If Nintendo did not keep the competitive gamers in mind, they would have not included l-canceling (in both games), powershielding, jump canceling up smashes (they overlooked JCed grabs), dash cancel (they added this in Melee, was nonexistent in SSB), DI (severly fixed, it was poor in SSB), more grab frames (too fast in SSB) and dash grabs, air dodges, bracing yourself when you tumble in the air, meteor canceling, wall/ledge teching, up Bs that cancel directly into grabbing the ledge if sweetspotted right (example, Fox’s up B), and a bunch of other specific crap. I don’t think Nintendo believes the casual gamer will focus on these things at all, much less actually know of their existence.

Developers tweak around things in every single sequel there is out there. What makes you think this time around, they had US in mind. Are you telling me that if there wasnt a competitive scene, SSBM's physics engine would behave exactly like SSB's? False.

[Office_Shredder]

Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker gave me nightmares =3. And I am not the only one who felt the same way about these 2 games. But Nintendo knew what they were doing right? And they sure always knew how to please the fanbase :). Or maybe they weren't serious enough at that time? You tell me.

I think someone released a game that was mislabeled from the "joke" bin there.

And remember that Nintendo didn't really intend this game to be competitive. They couldn't really fortell that we'd abuse the physics engine at this point. The players are the ones who made the game competitive, who kept finding new discoveries thus adding depth in our gameplay by substancial amounts, not Nintendo.

Was it players who made DI? Short hopping? L-cancelling? Of course not. Most of the abilities appear to have intentionally been added in.

But the people on these boards are the ones who would care a lot if the gameplay was tweaked and if several 'advanced techniques' weren't to exist on SSBM's sequel. SSB used to be very competite aswell, it had its own tier list and all~ And I'm sure they had our tier lists in mind by looking at the way kirby and ness got 'nerfed'. Is that what you call "balancing"?
(Fox for low-tier!).
It's funny tho because in your first post, you talk as if Nintendo knew exactly what WE (competitive smashers) would want in the next sequel, and develop the game accordingly... SSBM is a big leap when compared to SSB64 and I expect the same kind of evolution from SSBM to its next sequel. Surely, if all those adv.techniques were to stay in the game (meaning there would be no need for us to adapt to anything at all), can we really consider it as a new game and not simply as a SSBM with simply more chars and levels? Even if thay have us in mind, this IS a NEW game they're developing.


Name a single overarching technique in SSB that was removed in SSB:M

[BentoBox]

1.Was it players who made DI? Short hopping? L-cancelling? Of course not. Most of the abilities appear to have intentionally been added in.

2.Name a single overarching technique in SSB that was removed in SSB:M

1.Do you label short hopping as an advance technique? And do you think Sakurai had Shuffles in mind when he added it in ssbm? Please.

2.Once again, I am not talking about techniques that are accomplished by the simple press of a button, but rather those little things we've come to abuse that weren't necesarily meant to be in the game~ :
Beam-cancel? grapple jumps? missile-cancels? shuffled missiles? Super wavedashes :p?

God sakurai sure was a genius huh.

[PillSpammer]

Except that's a bad question to ask. The question should be something more like:

Could office_shredder win a tournament with this character now?
If the answer is yes, it's ovepowered ;)
LOL :laugh:

Think of it this way...Nintendo could...
(A) make a fun party game that millions of people would buy because it's a FUN PARTY GAME [Make lots of money]

(B) make a fun party game that millions would buy and include the little details that appeal to tourney players that make it a COMPETITIVE GAME AS WELL AS FUN PARTY GAME [Make lots of money but have to put in a lot more expenses to fine tune the game for us nerds]

(C) make a competitive game that only appealed to tourney players and sell to a whole lot **LESS** than millions of people [Make less money]

(D) make a ****ty game that didn't appeal to anyone [Make no money]

Looks like A or B wins... to think that they'd make Brawl a ****ty game is misguided... whether they make it appeal to the guy that spends time each day practicing L-Cancelling is another issue...

The problem with everyone(well, many) that post at smashboards is they're looking for a good 1v1 or 2v2 tournament game... where everyone else in the entire world is looking for the game that they got into because they had ****LOADS OF FUN playing their freshmen year in college surrounded by their friends, yelling after getting smashed/caped, being crazy... getting drunk...PLAYING MELEE....reallllyyyy drunk....

if they put out Brawl and it's doesn't provide for "advanced techniques" or for tournament play... you can't think of it as "Nintendo screwing us over". Because they might put out the greatest party game of all time at the sacrifice of us, the smaller percentage "hardcore gamer". Nintendo would be screwing itself over if it made a game that solely appealed to the tournament player and ignored the millions of other people that would play just for fun. (not to mention a whole new generation of younger people who would be playing a smash title for the first time when Brawl comes out).

...my two cents.

[BentoBox]

LOL :laugh:

Think of it this way...Nintendo could...
(A) make a fun party game that millions of people would buy because it's a FUN PARTY GAME [Make lots of money]

(B) make a fun party game that millions would buy and include the little details that appeal to tourney players that make it a COMPETITIVE GAME AS WELL AS FUN PARTY GAME [Make lots of money but have to put in a lot more expenses to fine tune the game for us nerds]

(C) make a competitive game that only appealed to tourney players and sell to a whole lot **LESS** than millions of people [Make less money]

(D) make a ****ty game that didn't appeal to anyone [Make no money]

Looks like A or B wins... to think that they'd make Brawl a ****ty game is misguided... whether they make it appeal to the guy that spends time each day practicing L-Cancelling is another issue...

The problem with everyone(well, many) that post at smashboards is they're looking for a good 1v1 or 2v2 tournament game... where everyone else in the entire world is looking for the game that they got into because they had ****LOADS OF FUN playing their freshmen year in college surrounded by their friends, yelling after getting smashed/caped, being crazy... getting drunk...PLAYING MELEE....reallllyyyy drunk....

if they put out Brawl and it's doesn't provide for "advanced techniques" or for tournament play... you can't think of it as "Nintendo screwing us over". Because they might put out the greatest party game of all time at the sacrifice of us, the smaller percentage "hardcore gamer". Nintendo would be screwing itself over if it made a game that solely appealed to the tournament player and ignored the millions of other people that would play just for fun. (not to mention a whole new generation of younger people who would be playing a smash title for the first time when Brawl comes out).

...my two cents.

Quoted for truth.

[Aiser]

Most of you seem to think they can either one way, they can either appease the advance fanbase or the casual fanbase. What game can be played both casually and advanced and still be fun both ways? Oh wait ssb:m thats right. Give Nintendo some Credit Hal gave them all their notes one of the original developers is working on the game too I believe, I have faith they can appease to both parties.

[Lord HDL]

BentoBox you misunderstood what my post was all about. The things I mentioned in my post were techniques that Nintendo purposely included in the game, because some were in both, some were added, and some were fixed with the transition from SSB to SSBM. My point was that if these things are here purposely, Nintendo is not forgetting to attempt to balance the game for the competitive gamers. Obviously they focus more on things like new modes, items, etc., because it means more money and wide appeal, but that’s no reason they cannot cater to both sides. They have very well done so.

[LightHeaded]

Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker gave me nightmares =3. And I am not the only one who felt the same way about these 2 games. But Nintendo knew what they were doing right? And they sure always knew how to please the fanbase :). Or maybe they weren't serious enough at that time? You tell me.

And remember that Nintendo didn't really intend this game to be competitive. They couldn't really fortell that we'd abuse the physics engine at this point. The players are the ones who made the game competitive, who kept finding new discoveries thus adding depth in our gameplay by substancial amounts, not Nintendo. But the people on these boards are the ones who would care a lot if the gameplay was tweaked and if several 'advanced techniques' weren't to exist on SSBM's sequel. SSB used to be very competite aswell, it had its own tier list and all~ And I'm sure they had our tier lists in mind by looking at the way kirby and ness got 'nerfed'. Is that what you call "balancing"?
(Fox for low-tier!)

It's funny tho because in your first post, you talk as if Nintendo knew exactly what WE (competitive smashers) would want in the next sequel, and develop the game accordingly... SSBM is a big leap when compared to SSB64 and I expect the same kind of evolution from SSBM to its next sequel. Surely, if all those adv.techniques were to stay in the game (meaning there would be no need for us to adapt to anything at all), can we really consider it as a new game and not simply as a SSBM with simply more chars and levels? Even if thay have us in mind, this IS a NEW game they're developing.



Developers tweak around things in every single sequel there is out there. What makes you think this time around, they had US in mind. Are you telling me that if there wasnt a competitive scene, SSBM's physics engine would behave exactly like SSB's? False.

Nobody cares if you and a few of your friends disliked Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker. Major reviewers gave both games high ratings. Every game has people who dislike it.

And you say Nintendo didn't intend for this to be competitive... then you say that they knew SSB was competitive. I'm sure they expected SSBM to be competitive if SSB was. As other posters have stated all the major techniques were left in. And they obviously did intend for it to be competitive when they added in all these little techniques that the casual gamer wouldn't bother use purposely. Also, no game (especially one with a lot of characters) will ever come close to being perfectly balanced. Nintendo can only balance to a certain degree. Don't act like they didnt even try to balance. They did a great job of it in SSBM considering the amount of characters and the huge amount of competitive play there is which takes character strengths and weaknesses to an extreme.

You say that if the advanced techniques were to stay in the game there would be nothing to adapt to. Did it ever cross your mind that it just MAY be possible that Nintendo could keep the old techniques in and add new ones just as they did with SSB when they made SSBM.

[Impmacaque]

Wow, people distrust Nintendo so strongly, >.<

If Nintendo weren't looking out for competitive smashers, they would not have kept the fighting friendly gamecube controller as the primary input device for smash. Think about it, they could've revamped the game to make it casual friendly using only the Wiimote, and left all of us in the dust.. I think they're highly conscious of how big a scene competitive smash has been over the past couple of years.

Besides, Nintendo wouldn't have provided the depth melee has in it's intricate physics and otherwise crazy combat system if they didn't have *some* sort of competition worthy content in mind. I mean I dunno' about you guys, but when I first saw the SSBB trailer, I had a huge sigh of relief over the way the presentation of the trailer. The fighting was at it's core similar to Melee, and the same concept of a semi-2D stage was kept. The graphics were revamped, as was the character roster - and that's all I ever wanted in my smash sequel, :p

Maybe their's alot of people thinking like me, but the first thing I'm gonna do when I get my game into my console is do a massive check on every single character in the game. If the fighting mechanics are similar enough to smash that I don't have to relearn everything, I'm going to get straight to learning new techniques and preparing for some big smash tourneys >:D

You know they're coming!

[TRC]

I'm checking all the characters too when I first get it...

Hmm even if they remove some things, like wavedashing.. we'll adjust. And it is a new game afterall... we'll find more things to exploit. Even more advanced techniques. They won't ruin it, for sure, especially cause of what we saw in the video. All I'm worried about is balancing characters. Next thing you know Snake is top tier cause the dev team didn't figure out wavebox cancelling :D

[DonkeyPirate]

the game is potentially built upon the engine of melee, (i assume since the dev team of melee gave everything they had to to brawl) they know the advanced techniques, whether they were put in the game on purpose or not. at this point they can decide what they want to have. smash bros is setup to where beginners can easily play it, but advanced players can learn new ways to kill. nintendo knows what they are doing, heck they are probably lurking this forum. it is the biggest sb forum.

[BentoBox]

Lightheaded : Just to clarify my point of view : I do think WDing and all that stuff will still be left in and I'll be happy if it's the case. What I'm arguing against tho is the fact that you guys think Nintendo is constantly dreaming about us thinking about how they could improve this game for competitive smashers. That is just being extremely naive, imo. You may think what you want, that is all I have to say.


Did it ever cross your mind that it just MAY be possible that Nintendo could keep the old techniques in and add new ones just as they did with SSB when they made SSBM.
Heh. Same physics engine, same controller.

Oh and I didn't say they knew SSB was competitive, read again :p.
"And I'm sure they had our tier lists in mind by looking at the way kirby and ness got 'nerfed'. Is that what you call "balancing"?" << That right there is called sarcasm ;D. Anyways, I'm done.

[Aiser]

nintendo knows what they are doing, heck they are probably lurking this forum. it is the biggest sb forum.
I wouldn't be suprised, what two characters where largly popular in the ssbr thread? Metaknight and Wario, what characters did they show in the trailor? Wario and Metaknight, lol. are they camping this site? probably not. Would I be surpised if they did? nope.

[Office_Shredder]

1.Do you label short hopping as an advance technique? And do you think Sakurai had Shuffles in mind when he added it in ssbm? Please.

2.Once again, I am not talking about techniques that are accomplished by the simple press of a button, but rather those little things we've come to abuse that weren't necesarily meant to be in the game~ :

Have you actually played casual gamers? All the ones I know don't short hop, don't wavedash, only one even l-cancels.

That they were included in the first place indicates that the developers had at least in the back of their mind this idea of smash becoming a competitive game (either that, or they gave casual gamers too much credit)

[tstumo]

Nintendo knows this is a competitive game. otherwise as someone mentioned before they would have used the wiimote and completly neglected us and what made melee a competitive game in the first place. The whole theme of the wii is to please EVERYONE so to think that Nintendo only intended to please casual gamers is stupid considering all the techniques that were in melee. and i doubt they could have let all those "mistakes" get in there un noticed.