New Falco Question

[7ak]

I'm starting to get into more advanced SSBM after seeing tournament vids and getting sick of Halo cheaters. I'm trying to master Falco as my primary and I'm making good progress after only about a week of playing. I consider Marth and Sheik to be somewhat cheap and I like the technical skill and control it takes to master Falco.

I'm having some trouble wavedashing and L-cancelling with Falco however. I practiced wavedashing with Luigi, ICs, Samus, Marth, etc. and find it very easy but didn't realize Falco and Fox have different slower timings so now I find it quite difficult to WD with them.

As for the L-cancel, I can't tell if I'm doing it right or not. The guide said to try it with Link and its so obvious when I do it but with a Falco shffl, he is so fast its hard to tell if I'm just dashing out of a shff d-air or L-cancelling right.

Does anyone have any tips on how to recognize if I'm doing an L-cancel with Falco correctly?

Other than that, I just need to practice pillaring, waveshines, and Falco's slower wavedash.

One more question: how long does it take to completely master Falco, i.e. waveshines, dashing SHL, perfect shffl and combos etc. ?

Thanks for any help, and yes I used the search button.

[Miharu]

After a dair, see if you can shine right after. If you can't, then you didn't L-cancel properly.

It takes awhile to get techs down. I've been playing seriously for say, about 4 months now, and I've gotten the basic stuff down, and now I'm just working on mindgames and prediction by going to tourneys and such.

I still can't flame stall, LHDL, and bair right out of shine consistently yet. >_>

[7ak]

Thanks, I'll try that. I can SHL, double and triple shine, shff (without L-cancel) :urg: , and am getting better at pillaring. But right now I blow at dashing while SHL, waveshine, and general wavedashing with Falco. My playing in general is good but I just need time to master these techniques and especially Falco's weird WD timing.

One thing I forgot: I heard Falco's shine can be used to stop the momentum from a strong smash if its done fast enough.................is this true and is it difficult to do? I think I've only seen it done once and it was by Bombsoldier who has insane reflexes.

And about WD: which character should I master WDing with so I can WD with anyone? Or are they too different and must be learned individually? All the guides say start with Luigi, and I did but now my timing is off for Fox and Falco.

[Miharu]

Using shine while in midair sharply reduces horizontal movement, and also decreases falling speed.

About WD timing, most of the character's timing is pretty similar, so I think it's a matter of practice. The only characters I can't WD consistently with are Fox and Bowser, since they're at the 2 extremes of # of frames it takes for them to leave the ground (Fox: 4, Bowser: 9). However, I can WD with pretty everyone else.

So just practice, and good luck.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Thanks, I'll try that. I can SHL, double and triple shine, shff (without L-cancel) :urg: , and am getting better at pillaring. But right now I blow at dashing while SHL, waveshine, and general wavedashing with Falco. My playing in general is good but I just need time to master these techniques and especially Falco's weird WD timing.

One thing I forgot: I heard Falco's shine can be used to stop the momentum from a strong smash if its done fast enough.................is this true and is it difficult to do? I think I've only seen it done once and it was by Bombsoldier who has insane reflexes.

And about WD: which character should I master WDing with so I can WD with anyone? Or are they too different and must be learned individually? All the guides say start with Luigi, and I did but now my timing is off for Fox and Falco.

dashing while SHL'ing should be a piece of cake if you already know how to SHL well. just add a dash in front of it. lol. now reverse SHLing, that's a bit trickier.

as for the shine stopping your horizontal momentum, it is true that it stops your momentum...it's probably not all that it might seem to be, though. I've made it a habit of mashing down+b after getting hit (after applying proper DI, of course), but still, quite a few times I actually have the shine come out, and while it does slow the momentum down, it doesn't do it quickly enough, and i still die.
i do remember one incident, however, where i was able to shine almost immediately after being hit. it definitely helped that time. i dont exactly know how it happened though. some sort of fluke, maybe.
in any case, it definitely can't HURT to try to shine after being sent flying. I mean you can just jc out of it =anyways=, so why not?

for wd's, luigi should be fine to start with, but if you want to learn falco's wd, practice with falco. a lot of the characters tend to have about the same wd timing, somewhere around marios and marths, but then there's people like bowser, link, ganondorf, and falco, who have slower timing, and then sheik and fox and ICs and pikachu who have faster timings. so uhm...yeah.

another thing to keep in mind after you can wd well is improving your wd's so that they're "perfect" wd's. this involves tilting the control stick at a shallower angle than 45 degress, so that it's almost completely horizontal. you'll slide farther. coincidentally, this is probably most noticable with luigi.

shffl'ing is probably far more important to a falco player than wd'ing and waveshining is, so you might want to focus on that first. head into training mode and try to shffl a dair or an nair into a shine. if it combos, you did the l-cancel right.

...of course, the only problem with that method is that you can't use the c-stick in training mode....and I like using the c-stick for dairs......ah well...

[bornfidelity.com]

^ <3

*agrees with DDRKirb on everything*

(except for using aerials in training mode because you can't use the cstick, but you addressed that yourself...)
so, for practicing shffls etc go vs a lvl 1 or 'empty' player (second controller in slot 2 obv) because you should do aerials with the cstick primarily (because of fastfalling & DIing issues)

[Kragen]

A good way to see if you L-canceled is to do a SH Uair. When you do that, Falco will be touching the ground as if he's lieing (to lie down) so it's relatively easy to see if you're L-cancelling or not.
You could do a non-L-canceled Uair first, and then one L-canceled, so you can see the diiference.

Later on, you want to L-cancel, because the chance that you get hit will be less.
For instance= if you hit your opponent with a Fair, and you don't L-cancel, it is almost guaranteed that you will get hit, because the Fair has little knockback. But if you L-cancel, you can almost immediatly shield to shieldgrab/do another attack.

I think nearly every character has another timing in WD'ing, so you need to practice it with Falco. Besides, what's the point in being able to WD, if you don't play that character?

Very useful tip (props to BF.com): when you're far away from the edge, (almost) ALWAYS shine first and then JC it. If you don't shine, your jump will be backwards, even increasing the distance between the ledge and yourself. But if you shine, you jump will be forward, minimalizing the distance between you and the edge. (This also solves your problem about shining after getting hit by a smash, 'cause you'll be off the ledge then.)

[7ak]

Great advice, thanks very much everyone. All the threads say " just practice the L-cancel" but don't give any advice on how to tell if you're doing it right, but now you've cleared it up.

Is it really that much better to use the c-stick for aerials? I rather like the A button actually, but are there really advantages to using the c-stick instead? I'm curious because I don't want to get into a bad habit while I'm still learning the character.

[SiGeL]

It's very important to get in the habit of C-Sticking early on, as you can do things like B-air while still keeping your forward momentum, U-Air without using your second jump by accident, and D-Air without fastfalling. Basically, not using the C-Stick forces you to DI-I think it's called DI in this situation, or air control, not sure which-(or, in the case of D-Air, fastfall) in the direction of the aerial.

On L-Cancelling, make sure that you start practice L-Cancelling onto a character (level 1's or empty controller work well, as said above), because the timing in L-Cancelling a move on someone and just doing it standing somewhere are slightly different. SHFFL'ing may be one of the harder things to learn just starting out, but it's one of the most important, as it applies to just about every character.

Practice wavedashing with Falco, because he has one of the harder WD's to do consistantly, and then after you get the other basics down, practice waveshining, because it destroys people's shields, and can lead to huge damage combos on Fox.

And last, with dash SHL, your hand sequence for it should be
1. Dash in desired direction
2. Jump (Make sure that your stick is back to being in the center, or you will Phantasm!)
3. Laser
4. Fastfall (Again, make sure you seperate the timing for this and the laser, or you will shine)
5. Repeat

One more additional thing, if you haven't been doing it already, is make sure you are using a button (X or Y) to jump, and not the control stick.

[7ak]

It's really too bad training mode doesn't allow c-stick moves. I'll start using the C-stick for aerials except for Falco's SH dair because I'm too used to that now. I guess I'll practice on a lvl 1 CPU with no time limit or something instead of a non-moving CPU or a lvl 9.

I'm starting to get Falco's WD going a bit now with some practice, but my god its annoying compared to Samus, ICs, Marth, Luigi, Sheik, etc. One WD tip I've never heard that works really well for me is to just air dodge right off the ground over and over to master the timing, and then to add the direction. Without doing that, I could barely even get Falco to do 1 or 2 WDs but now I can do a few consistently back and forth. With Samus, ICs, and Luigi I can WD all over the place...............its too bad the timings are different for different characters.

This forum is great, you guys are really nice. Halo players can be such *******s compared to Smash players. Smash is the perfect game to play to get away from Halo, I actually play better now that I play Smash more and Halo less.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

beh, should have said this earlier.

the c-stick vs A for aerials is an ongoing debate, but i have some thoughts you may want to consider as you think about it.

-some things are impossible without using the c-stick (example: moving forward while doing a bair). however doing nairs is impossible without using A! this means that if you want to be able to do =everything=, you have to use both...

-the main advantage of c-sticking, is better control and mobility. as mentioned previously, you can move forwards while doing bairs, and backwards while doing fairs. this isn't a huge deal with falco, but can be useful for other chars, such as if you're spacing marth's fairs, or moving backwards while doing fairs with g&w for defensive movement/attack. also i personally find it much easier to do shffl'ed dairs with the c-stick, as you have better control over the fastfall. (remember, the fastfall should be happening AFTER the attack comes out, unless you're doing some weird style of shffl...which is okay too, actually) this is because you dont have to tilt the control stick down for the dair, then raise it back up and smash it back down for the fastfall.
Control over fastfalling is the main resaon i use the c-stick for almost all of my dairs. for example, if you're trying to spike someone with falco over the edge using a dair, you wouldn't want to fastfall (because you'd die with them), and using the c-stick helps avoid this. of course, sometimes this actually isn't necessary. for example when doing a =rising= dair for a spike, i use the A button (because it's faster), and i dont have to worry about fastfalling accidentally because it's impossible to fastfall while you're traveling upwards during a jump.

many people also find it easier to use the c-stick for shffl'ed uairs (which aren't useful with falco but are useful with other chars) because it avoids the possibility of accidentally using your midair jump when you tilt the control stick up.

-the main advantage of using a, aside from being able to do nairs, is that it's easier. there's also a key difference in that you can reach the A button much FASTER than you can get your thumb to the c-stick. this isn't always that big of a deal, but for doing things like SHBAWDs (short hop bair->waveland) with doc or sh double fairs with marth, it can make a difference.

=also=, note that you can hold Y and A (or X and A) at the same time, whereas you can't do that with the c-stick. there's one key situation where this matters and that is jigglypuff's WoP (Wall of Pain). one facet of the WoP involves double bairs in one full jump. now, if you try to use the Y button to jump, and the c-stick to do the bairs, you have to let go of Y to get to the c-stick, which causes you to =short hop= instead of full jump. if you try to instead to jump using the control stick, your aerial mobility is hindered. so this is actually one situation where trying to use the c-stick actually HURTS your aerial mobility.

i know this is an isolated situation but it just proves once again that c-stick vs a button can totally go either way depending not only on your personal preference, but also on the situation and what you're trying to do.

...
and there ends my rant on c-stick vs a for aerials. its a bit tougher of an issue to tackle than c-stick vs a for ground smashes, but it's one that should be addressed.

(now if only c-stick were enabled for single-player...HRC batdrops would be oh SO much easier...-_-; )

(side note: this forum may be great and we may be nice, but smash players can be pretty bad, depending on who you meet...)

[bornfidelity.com]

cstick for aerials > A for aerials. period.
ESPECIALLY for dair because you can add sidewards aircontrol to your pillars by using cstick. ^^

[7ak]

Thanks DDRKirby, very nice informative writeup...............I think it should be a sticky on the A vs. c-stick debate.

I've only been playing about 1-2 weeks after playing it casually and I'm already getting good with SHL, wavedashing, pillaring, dair spikes, and am going to start trying faster WD and waveshines now. I really like using A for most of Falco's moves, especially edgeguarding with dair...........but I like your tips on jumping forward bairs with the c-stick. It's definitely best to use both A and C now that I think about it.


Bornfidelity...........now I'm very curious, but how do you add "sideways aircontrol" with the C-stick on pillars? Is there a way to influence how they're spiked down with just a dair? I've never heard of that, is it in your guide? Your Falco guide is excellent, but maybe you could add more on L-cancels and A vs. C-stick because this thread has really taught me a lot with only a few posts.

I would expect there to be some trash talking loser Smash players but so far you all seem incomparably friendly compared to all the Halo people who think they're pro.

[jamz]

7ak i really think u should get in the habit of using the c-stick, for everything. i think what born fidelity meant was u can move from side to side as in DI when u d-air. lets say u start pillaring some guys shield in front of him (hes facing u). if u use the c-stick to pillar u can d-air the shield> DI behind him > shine > change directions in shine > pillar shield some more just in case ur afraid u might make a mistake and get grabbed. that would be useful just incase u fight a marth on FD which, if hes any good, once he grabs u ur chain grabbed > tipper = death for our feathery friend. it would be very difficult to shffl a d-air and/or u-air with the analog. it will give ur falco more control and make u more fluid.

good luck. i know ur workin hard but ur gonna need more than 2 weeks, let alone a couple months, to start placin in the top 10 at tourneys

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Thanks DDRKirby, very nice informative writeup...............I think it should be a sticky on the A vs. c-stick debate.

I've only been playing about 1-2 weeks after playing it casually and I'm already getting good with SHL, wavedashing, pillaring, dair spikes, and am going to start trying faster WD and waveshines now. I really like using A for most of Falco's moves, especially edgeguarding with dair...........but I like your tips on jumping forward bairs with the c-stick. It's definitely best to use both A and C now that I think about it.


Bornfidelity...........now I'm very curious, but how do you add "sideways aircontrol" with the C-stick on pillars? Is there a way to influence how they're spiked down with just a dair? I've never heard of that, is it in your guide? Your Falco guide is excellent, but maybe you could add more on L-cancels and A vs. C-stick because this thread has really taught me a lot with only a few posts.

I would expect there to be some trash talking loser Smash players but so far you all seem incomparably friendly compared to all the Halo people who think they're pro.

pillaring is not shine->fulljump dair->shine->fulljump dair->etc.

pillaring is shine->shffl'ed dair->shine->shffl'ed dair on a SHIELDING opponent.

might have been some confusion there.

so yes, like jamz is saying, while you're doing the dair during the pillar with the c-stick you're free to use the control stick to drift to the right or left.

while i still think personally that you need to find out for yourself where A works and where c-stick works, i do agree that getting in the habit of using c-stick for most things isn't a bad idea, unless it feels really awkward.

[7ak]

Hmmmm interesting...........thanks for clearing pillaring up. I'll keep practicing the L-cancel and true "pillaring" and get used to using both A and the C-stick. I don't have anyone to practice against right now so I'm mostly using training mode or low lvl CPUs just to get tech skill down.

So to pillar, I should be able to shffl a dair right into a shine and repeat? Whenever I do a dair and follow it up with a shine, theres a slight pause in between the two moves. Does hitting a shield change the timing of the L-cancel?

I know it takes more than 2 weeks to master Falco :chuckle: , but it feels good to make actual progress and start using techniques that the top Falcos use.

Thanks again everyone...........this info is very helpful. It's the small things like DI while pillaring using the C-stick that can make all the difference between a competent player and a really great one.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Hmmmm interesting...........thanks for clearing pillaring up. I'll keep practicing the L-cancel and true "pillaring" and get used to using both A and the C-stick. I don't have anyone to practice against right now so I'm mostly using training mode or low lvl CPUs just to get tech skill down.

So to pillar, I should be able to shffl a dair right into a shine and repeat? Whenever I do a dair and follow it up with a shine, theres a slight pause in between the two moves. Does hitting a shield change the timing of the L-cancel?

I know it takes more than 2 weeks to master Falco :chuckle: , but it feels good to make actual progress and start using techniques that the top Falcos use.

Thanks again everyone...........this info is very helpful. It's the small things like DI while pillaring using the C-stick that can make all the difference between a competent player and a really great one.

sounds good.

yes, that's what pillaring is. hitting a shield does change the timing up, since there's more lag when the dair hits. this makes pillaring harder to practice. however, you can actually simulate this lag on a computer if you either go into training mode or set items to very high stars only, and give the cpu an invincibility star. turns out that the lag from hitting an invincible opponent can simulate the lag from hitting a shielding opponent.

...i have yet to actually use pillaring in a match. =p probably because none of the people i play shield nearly enough. it does seem useful, tho.

[superryan]

also remember to try to time the dair right above their grab range for the most shield stun

something to practice after you get the actual action down

[jamz]

like DDRkirby aid use stars to simulate the effect of pillaring a shield. the lag is the same. however if u are goin to practice make it a human player so the CPU wont jab u and mess u up. it is very useful technique b/c many people like to shield your lasers. and startin a pillar is a great way to drain a shield so ur opponent cant use it for a while. however most great players can a) avoid lasers more effectively then shielding them, b) will power shield them but u and ur buddies prolly have a while to go before power shieldin comes into play but its something that will improve u and ur buddies as players