Equality among all characters thread

[Jeike]

I'm bored and i think this topic can spark some interest. Can anyone name some ways that will make every character in the game equal. Marth's tip toned down. Sheik a little slower. Mewtwo a little less laggy are some good ones. No more chain throws. I can imagine how hard it is to make a every character very unique and have their own style while at the same time keeping them equally matched.( Even though technically the skill is in the players hands not the characters but you know what I mean)

[bluekitsune13]

Unless all characters were exactly the same, with identical moves, weight, abilities, etc., there's no way to make a completely equal game. But as for toning up/down the characters, I'm sure everyone would say the same about Marth, Shiek, etc. Just slow down the fasties and boost up the slows.

[Jeike]

I know there can't be a completely equal game but you can get VERY VERY close. IMO Soul Calibur2 fits that category.

[dotdotdot!]

As it stands, SSBM has some pretty good balance. 3 tops with many more High and mid tiers is pretty good all things considering. True, the top four do tend to dominate, but even then, there are ways around them, and lots of people play characters up and down the tier list. Apparently, the PAL version is even more balanced than in the version I have (Which is the first version) and Sheik and Marth are toned down a bit.

I say that is very good, now to spiff up some lower tiers (Mewtwo, Bowser, Zelda) and then take into account the new characters, and you're basically done.

[Jeike]

I've been hearing a lot about this PAL version. What is it and how does it tone down some of the characters? Where can I get it. When did it come out?

[dotdotdot!]

I've been hearing a lot about this PAL version. What is it and how does it tone down some of the characters? Where can I get it. When did it come out?

PAL refers to the version of the game that came out in Europe. Also, for the purpose of Smash, I think some later presses of the game were basically equal in balance to the PAL version, and are usually referred to as "PAL" as well.

What happened was that a lot of various character stats were switched around, and the most jarring are the nerfs of Marth and Sheik, although i'm not sure of the specifics. Someone who knows a little more could help you more.

[Jeike]

But did it affect the tiers at all?

[dotdotdot!]

But did it affect the tiers at all?

I'm not sure. You'll have to go to the Melee boards to find out. Please not that I may not be completely right on who got nerfed and who didn't.

Go here, it's a thread all about the PAL/US version changes (The first post is full of a lot of Technical mumbo-jumbo. Scroll down to the bottom of the first post for some more concise changes.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

[Jeike]

thanks for the info

[Yuna]

Unless all characters were exactly the same, with identical moves, weight, abilities, etc., there's no way to make a completely equal game. But as for toning up/down the characters, I'm sure everyone would say the same about Marth, Shiek, etc. Just slow down the fasties and boost up the slows.

No, no you don't have to. I give you: Guilty Gear XX/XX#R/XX#S

Jeike: No, Soul Calibur II was not superbalanced. There were definite Top Tiers and Low Tiers who had major problems fighting the higher tiers. GGXX/XX#R/XX#S are 3 of the most balanced fighters in existence.

[Jeike]

Well I guess you're right whne I think about it I really didn't get deep into that game.

[Takalth]

The top key to developing balance, IMHO, is fixing moves that are worthless in 1 vs. 1. Too many moves were designed entirely for free for all, and those are most present in low tier characters.
A few examples:
Replace Kirby's ground hammer and brick moves with valuable B moves.
Give Bowser and DK a few options that aren't so laggy. As it is, users of those two characters are forced into a narrow range of tactics because everything else will get them punished too badly.
Give link's bow a boost in power and range.
Replace the forward+B attacks of Yoshi, Pikachu, and pichu with something worthwhile.
Give worthwhile projectiles to all slow characters so they can't be eternally evaded.

Those are far from all of the examples, and I would also like to see the lame moves of higher tiers fixed as well (peach's forward B, falco's f-air), even though they aren't nearly as numerous.

Overall, That is the first and most important step in balancing the current game: make sure that as many moves as possible are worthwhile in 1 vs. 1.

[Gamingboy]

I don't like completely balanced games. As long it's competitive. For example, as long as I'm going in, even if i'm the 'worst' character, I have a chance to beat the 'best' character if I play right. A good player with Pichu could defeat a n00b with Falco. Heck, a good player with Pichu could beat a good player with Falco if he gets a few lucky breaks.

[-ZERO-]

They're need to be modifications to most characters, but I'll just say what I think about the confirmed characters.

Mario
- A bit faster
- Less lag

Link
- Alot less lag
- Be able to wall-jump

Kirby
- Less lag
- A bit stronger

Pikachu
- A bit heavier

Samus
- A bit heavier
- Less lag

[kaid]

Samus is already one of the heaviest characters in the game... you just don't notice beacuse she's so floaty.

Mewtwo, on the other hand, REALLY needs to put on weight.

[Vanilla]

Pikachu
- A bit heavier

Pikachu is already too heavy IMO. In my opinion, we should make Pikachu faster more than anything else.

[Lord Knight]

No, no you don't have to. I give you: Guilty Gear XX/XX#R/XX#S

Guilty Gear xx#S: Sol?


I doubt the game will be truly balanced. It'll mostly be tune-ups and tone downs, and one of the new characters will probably be top tier.

[dotdotdot!]

No, no you don't have to. I give you: Guilty Gear XX/XX#R/XX#S

Jeike: No, Soul Calibur II was not superbalanced. There were definite Top Tiers and Low Tiers who had major problems fighting the higher tiers. GGXX/XX#R/XX#S are 3 of the most balanced fighters in existence.

Yuna speaks the truth, and i'm pretty sure they accomplished it by having each character be designed by a completely different team/person, although, even then it's not perfect. I'm pretty sure Sol and Robo-Ky dominate the tier in one of the GGXX versions (Though not by as large a margin as in some games), but then again in the later versions, they completely rebalanced the game with normal-Ky towards the top and the new Order-Sol towards the bottom.

But once again, I'm going by half-remembered facts from conversations I've had with my hardcore Guilty Gear fanboy friends, so I'm not the best place to go for GG tier lists. I can barely play the game, personally, though I can pull out a mean Bridget against the CPU (unless it fights back too much.)

[ChopingBoard]

No, no you don't have to. I give you: Guilty Gear XX/XX#R/XX#S

Jeike: No, Soul Calibur II was not superbalanced. There were definite Top Tiers and Low Tiers who had major problems fighting the higher tiers. GGXX/XX#R/XX#S are 3 of the most balanced fighters in existence.

I dunno about you. but i noticed sol bad guy and ky kiske are seriously broken characters that require no understading of a controller to operated them to their best abilities. Some characters in guilty gear are balanced but Sol, Millia, Potemin. and ky are broken.

[ChopingBoard]

Pikachu is already too heavy IMO. In my opinion, we should make Pikachu faster more than anything else.

I play pika and he get's easily killed around 70% and up. he deffinately needs weight. he has the power and speed being i think tied for third fastest. He is to my understanding a featherweight. Pika deff needs weight dude

[dotdotdot!]

I dunno about you. but i noticed sol bad guy and ky kiske are seriously broken characters that require no understading of a controller to operated them to their best abilities. Some characters in guilty gear are balanced but Sol, Millia, Potemin. and ky are broken.

I'm pretty sure that Sol and Ky only feel broken because they are perhaps the simplest of all the characters in the game. Indeed, Sol basically takes all his special moves and motions from Ryu or Terry Bogard, so fighting game fans intuitively know how to play him right off. The trick is that the other characters can hold their own for the most part, but take a little more effort to learn the basics for.

[ChopingBoard]

what about may or testament? They blow hardcore. My fav, is axl low but some times sol quarter cirle forward slash just goes through much of my moves. If you are good at timing you can just about stop anything with sol. i dunno about in reload though. testament has the worst overdrives period. not fast. he doesn't make up for it in strength either. his traps are pretty easy to spot too. It's deff Sol. the rest then testament.

[Krian13]

Hey, arent we supposed to be talking about SSB, NOT guilty Gear?

[Stryks]

It fine as t is, it what makes the game fun, tough some are powerful but slow, so u use a fast guy to keep the slow one off balanced, its strategy

[saberhof]

It fine as t is, it what makes the game fun, tough some are powerful but slow, so u use a fast guy to keep the slow one off balanced, its strategy
correecto my friend...why would every character be the same anyways??...i mean thats what makes the game competitive...

[Dead Eye 935]

Well, I think maybe some small changes, but not anything big. You don't want a game with over 25 characters with the same stats do you? That would ruin the entire game.

Like kaid said, Mewtwo needs to be heavier. Much heavier. And Samus is heavy enough as she is. Try smashing her when she is croouched and see how far you will knock her back.

[Yuna]

Samus is 3rd Heaviest in NTSC, I believe. 4th in PAL?

Mario is among one of the fastest already. You just need to L-cancel his aerials.

Link is slower than Mario, but not that slow.

Kirby on the other hand is fast. And I think Pikachu is mid-weight? Also, he's a Pikachu. Anyone bigger than him should be heavier than him.

Lord Knight: The GGXX games re among the most balanced games the world has ever seen. It's so balanced, the tierlist is constantly changing and the Bottom Tiers have been able to win major tournaments! Sol Badguy in GGXX#S is 2nd best in the game, so that's why I mentioned the difference (in XX and XX#R, he's just really easy to play as and win as, but not Top Tier).

GGXX#S has two new character, Order-Sol (Sol Badguy when he was in the Holy Order) and A.B.A. They are mid and low tier. Have you even played the game?!

Ky was never Top or close to being top 'til GGXX#S. Now he's God Tier, an entire tier above the Tops (with Sol being Top of Top). Meanwhile, Robo-Ky, while Top Tier in GGXX#R is now very far down.

ChopingBoard: That's easy to play, not easy to win as. Those are two completely different things. Characters who are easy to play and buttonmash as aren't automatically characters who'll easily win.

I doubt you've played GGXX#S, so I'll go by GGXX#R:
Sol - Not Top, slightly below Top somewhere at the bottom of their version of Upper I believe.
Millia - Just below Top. Top of Upper. However, she only becomes this far up because she's got this loop-combo which is a semi-infinite and it requires technical skill.
Potemkin - Are you kidding? Far, far, FAR down.
Ky - Somewhere around their version of Mid.

The only character in there who's really good is Millia, but that's only if you know how to play her technically. And if you're getting killed as Pikachu at 70% by moves that don't KO vertically, you suck, man (sorry, but you really do). What, do you only play as Fox? Or Pikachu dittos or against Pichu? Only their upsmashes can kill Pikachu at those percents.

And that's not only weight talking. There's floatiness in there as well. And are you seriously arguing Pikachu, a small animal-like creature should become a heavyweight?! He's a Pokémon!

May is bottom tier. For a while, May was actually bottom of bottom tier, yet people managed to win tourneys as her. Testament I don't know.

[Diddy Kong]

I play pika and he get's easily killed around 70% and up. he deffinately needs weight. he has the power and speed being i think tied for third fastest. He is to my understanding a featherweight. Pika deff needs weight dude

No. Pikachu isnt suposed to be heavier then this. The way he is now in Melee is good, because Pikachu is middle tier he shouldn't change much. If something where to change about Pikachu I'd say more power since he was powered down from the original Smash.

[Lord Knight]

Lord Knight: The GGXX games re among the most balanced games the world has ever seen. It's so balanced, the tierlist is constantly changing and the Bottom Tiers have been able to win major tournaments! Sol Badguy in GGXX#S is 2nd best in the game, so that's why I mentioned the difference (in XX and XX#R, he's just really easy to play as and win as, but not Top Tier).

GGXX#S has two new character, Order-Sol (Sol Badguy when he was in the Holy Order) and A.B.A. They are mid and low tier. Have you even played the game?!

Ky was never Top or close to being top 'til GGXX#S. Now he's God Tier, an entire tier above the Tops (with Sol being Top of Top). Meanwhile, Robo-Ky, while Top Tier in GGXX#R is now very far down.

Yeah, I have played the game, and I know it's known for being balanced (I'm a May user myself), but I just mentioned Sol because he literally takes no skill in #S. You still need to learn stuff like FRC points to learn Ky, but you can just press buttons with Sol because of his strength boost. :(

Anyway.

Pikachu actually doesn't need much improvement, in my opinion. His moves just need to be tuned a bit.

[Yuna]

Yes, that's because Sol is Top of Top Tier in GGXX#S (Ky is alone in God Tier, which is above Top Tier because he's just way too good).

[RaRaRachael]

LOL yeah im def agreeing with kaid. anyways, what good is the game if everyone is "equal?" the point is to develop and to recgonize each of the characters individual strengths and not to mention their weaknesses but i do think that their should def improving on the some of the characters.

[chansen]

there is no definitive line of good/bad cuz JS rapes me with pichu on a daily basis. theres is only skil and devotion. once you have those you can play mewtwo and rape Ken.

[Jeike]

Yeah what I meant by equal is like you know fixing people like Mewtwo or bringing down people like Sheik (the other two top tiers are defeatable) (don't get it twisted Mewtwo players can kill if they spend enough time practicing) who have obvious disadvantages or siginifcant advantages or Pichu( if they keep him in which I hope they don't do) so they're won't be like siginficant dsadvantages. Improve Game and watch too.

[RaRaRachael]

gotcha. my bad guys. in that case, i have to agree chansen

[Nightmare KoRn Kid]

I think that, yes, sometimes you can make a character good. Like SS4Ricky makes Link look great, and germ's specific video clips make Link look good (lol =P). BUT a the fact is, you're not going to be the world's best smasher using mewtwo.

If you play Pichu, or Mewtwo, or Bowser, or Yoshi, you're at a constant disadvantage with counter pickers. Also there's a HUGE problem with training. Let's say you train 50 hours a week at mewtwo, some one who plays shiek can casua;;y play ten hours a week against the same people you play, and then rape you, hard, because sheik is GOOD and mewtwo isn't as good.

Mookie rah, for example is a reallllllly good mewtwo, and he's amazing, but he's not on the top 25, and I'm not even sure if he's the greatest in his area, because you have people playing betetr characters EVEN MORE. Ken must play SO mcuh smash, but if you played smash double the amount of time he plays, and you use Mewtwo, well, you still lose. Let's say Mewtwo is 24 times worse than shiek (due to the good old made up tiers) well... Ken DOESN'T play only one hour a day, so if ken plays only 2 hours of smash everyday, you cannot physically play 48 hours of smash a day, and thus you can't get good enough.

-breathes-
>.>

<.<

Fix, Fox's U smash and speed, Falco's Lazer spamming needs to be stopped, Shiek needs less comboable A tilts and less chainable throws, Marth's tip shouldn't be AS strong, Samus needs to be lighter, fix the ICs grabs possibilitys, Ganondorf needs to be a little weaker and a little faster, Falcon's knee needs to be nerfed a little and he has to be slown down a little bit. Peach... ***** *** ***** **** ******** DOWN SMASH.. and Float cancels need to be changed too.

Jigglypuff, Mario, Pickachu, Doc, DK, and Roy can remain the same

Link needs less Lag, Y Link needs better recovory and better range, Zelda needs to be either More powerful, or quicker, Ness could use some recovory options, Yoshi could use some jumps, Bowser needs a little speed, Mewtwo needs weight and an inteligent moveset, Pichu needs range and not to damage himself, Game and watch needs some weight, or some speed, Kirby just needs a spike and a little more weight, AND Luigi needs better recovery

[Takalth]

LOL yeah im def agreeing with kaid. anyways, what good is the game if everyone is "equal?" the point is to develop and to recgonize each of the characters individual strengths and not to mention their weaknesses but i do think that their should def improving on the some of the characters.


Why is it that people think balance = clones? That's like saying that Peach and Falco are pretty much the same character because they're on the same tier.

If you can find me a thread that complains about how Jigglypuff plays exactly like Ganondorf, then you have a point, otherwise, balance can be improved without making characters more similar.

[RaRaRachael]

LOL yeah thats never gonna happen Takalth and what do you mean by Balance=Clones? yeah i realized what i was saying after i had the post from other members.

[Takalth]

People always say that the problem with balance is that they want the characters to be different (i.e. don't want them to be clones). My post shows that characters can be very close to equally balanced can play very differently.

[complexity1234]

I think that, yes, sometimes you can make a character good. Like SS4Ricky makes Link look great, and germ's specific video clips make Link look good (lol =P). BUT a the fact is, you're not going to be the world's best smasher using mewtwo.

If you play Pichu, or Mewtwo, or Bowser, or Yoshi, you're at a constant disadvantage with counter pickers. Also there's a HUGE problem with training. Let's say you train 50 hours a week at mewtwo, some one who plays shiek can casua;;y play ten hours a week against the same people you play, and then rape you, hard, because sheik is GOOD and mewtwo isn't as good.

Mookie rah, for example is a reallllllly good mewtwo, and he's amazing, but he's not on the top 25, and I'm not even sure if he's the greatest in his area, because you have people playing betetr characters EVEN MORE. Ken must play SO mcuh smash, but if you played smash double the amount of time he plays, and you use Mewtwo, well, you still lose. Let's say Mewtwo is 24 times worse than shiek (due to the good old made up tiers) well... Ken DOESN'T play only one hour a day, so if ken plays only 2 hours of smash everyday, you cannot physically play 48 hours of smash a day, and thus you can't get good enough.

-breathes-
>.>

<.<

Fix, Fox's U smash and speed, Falco's Lazer spamming needs to be stopped, Shiek needs less comboable A tilts and less chainable throws, Marth's tip shouldn't be AS strong, Samus needs to be lighter, fix the ICs grabs possibilitys, Ganondorf needs to be a little weaker and a little faster, Falcon's knee needs to be nerfed a little and he has to be slown down a little bit. Peach... ***** *** ***** **** ******** DOWN SMASH.. and Float cancels need to be changed too.

Jigglypuff, Mario, Pickachu, Doc, DK, and Roy can remain the same

Link needs less Lag, Y Link needs better recovory and better range, Zelda needs to be either More powerful, or quicker, Ness could use some recovory options, Yoshi could use some jumps, Bowser needs a little speed, Mewtwo needs weight and an inteligent moveset, Pichu needs range and not to damage himself, Game and watch needs some weight, or some speed, Kirby just needs a spike and a little more weight, AND Luigi needs better recovery
uhhh, way to many nerds bud. Your going to make all the top tier characters crappy. Instead, all the middle and bottom tiers should be upgraded alot, that way they can compete with the top tiers.

Things that should be removed are... chain throwing. Not much else. Nerfing is the wrong way of going about it. Make everyone else better!

[Yuna]

I don't see why people hate float-cancelling so much. What's so imbalanced with float-cancelling? If she float-cancels dair into dsmash, you can actually grab her before the dsmash comes out.

If she float-cancels bair, you can grab her unless she rolls or dodges (so a shorthopped nair would be safe).

If she float-cancels fair, she has to jab or you can grab her, guaranteed. So you can try to grab her anyway, because, come on, her jabs inflict no damage or knockback at all. In fact, if she jabs your shield twice, you can grab her because you'd still be standing right next to her. And if you got hit by the jabs, big deal.

After uair and nair, it's possible for her to time a dsmash. And that's it. Wow, that's so much worse than everyone else being able to L-cancel into dsmash (Mario, Luigi, Doctor Mario, Sheik, Pikachu, Pichu, among other) or tilts (Marth, Captain Falcon, Samus) or jabs (every single character in the game).

Peach float-cancelling is no more imbalanced than shuffling (because her shuffle-game sucks).