25? 35? 45? None of it matters...

[SensFan]

... unless they do it right.

What most people fail to realize is that the sheer quantity of selectable characters means very little in determining the overall quality of the game. I mean, look at SSBM. How many playable characters were there, including Sheik? Twenty-six, right? Wrong. There were seven: Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach, Samus, Falco, and Captain Falcon. (Previous statement is debatable, but you get what I'm trying to say.) Pichu wasn't playable, neither was Game and Watch, at least not in the sense that concerns the majority of this message board: the serious players.

Okay, so say you all get your wish and we're given forty characters in SSBB. A few months of playing reveals that Sheik, Marth, Fox and Pit are the only ones that can stand their ground in a tournament. That's thirty-six useless characters. Then we're back to where we started; we see thew same fights over and over again. Lame.

I would be thrilled to see thirty characters in SSBB. Thirty balanced characters. I don't want to see teirs anymore. Any character should be able to win a tournament in the right hands.

[FlipTroopa]

I agree with your logic, though I might point out that Tournament Play isn't the only style of play, obviously. Tiers are there, just... not applicable to most normal gameplay. I know that Sheik, Fox, Peach, whatever, are all ridiculously overused. And I know that to stand my ground in a tourney, I need to play them. But do I want to play in a tourney? No, I just want to be satisfied to see all my favorite characters fleshed out in full 3D, kicking the crap outta each other.

In my little circle of regular Melee players, we're Yoshi/Mario/Marth/Zelda (no lies) (me), Mewtwo/Fox/Ness, Falco/Bowser/Fox, Samus/Kirby, Dr. Mario/Luigi, Kirby/DK, and Roy/Falcon. It's not really set in stone as the OU characters; we vary. And I've run into people who are really really good as Game and Watch or JPuff or even PICHU in regular play. So I can see your argument, yes, but it doesn't apply to the entire gameplay. Not in the least.

[SensFan]

I agree with your logic, though I might point out that Tournament Play isn't the only style of play, obviously. Tiers are there, just... not applicable to most normal gameplay. I know that Sheik, Fox, Peach, whatever, are all ridiculously overused. And I know that to stand my ground in a tourney, I need to play them. But do I want to play in a tourney? No, I just want to be satisfied to see all my favorite characters fleshed out in full 3D, kicking the crap outta each other.

In my little circle of regular Melee players, we're Yoshi/Mario/Marth/Zelda (no lies) (me), Mewtwo/Fox/Ness, Falco/Bowser/Fox, Samus/Kirby, Dr. Mario/Luigi, Kirby/DK, and Roy/Falcon. It's not really set in stone as the OU characters; we vary. And I've run into people who are really really good as Game and Watch or JPuff or even PICHU in regular play. So I can see your argument, yes, but it doesn't apply to the entire gameplay. Not in the least.

You're sort of right...

I'm not a serious player at all, but I love the game and play it religiously. I'm a Pikachu/Pichu player and I'm pretty good with them (I like to think I'm one of the best bad players around). But what am I supposed to do when my friend pulls out Sheik or Marth? I haven't got a chance with my electric rats. That's why I picked up Peach as my secondary; I was sick of losing. I can still use Pichu or Pikachu when my friends pick out their 'fun' characters like Mewtwo or DK, but it's not even fun to do Rat vs. Marth or Sheik.

I know tournament play isn't the only metagame- personally, I've never played in one- but the teirs are also quite evident in high-level casual play.

[Yarg the Pirate]

What about people who play with friends who are at a significantly lower level? Against some of my friends, if I pull out my Jiggly, Marth, or Falco, it won't even be fun. I'll just 5-stock them - I'll be bored because I'm just pounding on them, and they'll be pissed because I'm just pounding on them. However, if they just make me play as Bowser (which they do), then it's fun for everybody, because I don't have a huge advantage over them, and I can try to Bowser Sodomize (uh I mean dthrow) everybody. Not saying I like the huge difference between the top (Sheik, Fox) and the bottom (Bowser, Mewtwo, Pichu), but if handicaps didn't screw up everything this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

[WindGuru]

Varation and quality is always important. Although Melee only had a few character 'skeletons' added, they truly made the difference, both the originals and the clones. I hope they balance out the tiers more, maybe not to the point that everyone is 100% even, but certainly so everyone has a chance against another.

[SensFan]

What about people who play with friends who are at a significantly lower level? Against some of my friends, if I pull out my Jiggly, Marth, or Falco, it won't even be fun. I'll just 5-stock them - I'll be bored because I'm just pounding on them, and they'll be pissed because I'm just pounding on them. However, if they just make me play as Bowser (which they do), then it's fun for everybody, because I don't have a huge advantage over them, and I can try to Bowser Sodomize (uh I mean dthrow) everybody. Not saying I like the huge difference between the top (Sheik, Fox) and the bottom (Bowser, Mewtwo, Pichu), but if handicaps didn't screw up everything this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

A fair point. It would be unrealistic to expect a complete revolution of Smash in which every character is made completely equal (Red Scare all over again?). I'd like to see the gaps closed significantly, but not entirely. With every community, there must be some sort of hierarchy; I still enjoy the satisfaction of beating the best character in the game with the worst, but it'd be nice if more characters could be considered 'top teir' and the so called 'bottom teir' characters were still good enough to use.

As for your situation, I did start a thread earlier proposing that they add more methods of handicapping. I think the current handicap system (which messes with character weights) sort of ruins the game. It changes the physics of everything and the flow of the game is just destroyed. Hopefully they add the option of letting characters start with different amount of stock.

[dmbrandon]

All fighters have tiers... Develpoers are not professional gamers, and do not have the time or resorces to make such a judgement.

When smash first entered a competitive scene, Roy was thought better than Marth, and commonly used in tournaments.

Nowadays, after finding potential of charcters. Roy is low on the list.

It's not a matter of charcters... to the game, everyone is balenced. To the experienced player, there are 10 charcters who can stand their ground in a tourn. (You forgot Ice Climbers, and Jiggly puff)

[Revolver Roosevelt]

This topic reminds me of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 and SNK vs. Capcom: Chaos. Both had much bigger rosters than ssbm, but the cast was unbelievably unbalenced.

[Destruction_King]

This topic reminds me of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 and SNK vs. Capcom: Chaos. Both had much bigger rosters than ssbm, but the cast was unbelievably unbalenced.

Yet oddly enough, Capcom Vs. SNK had a bigger roster than SVC Chaos, and was balanced pretty well.

I'm not really arguing one way or another. It's just a statement.

[dmbrandon]

This topic reminds me of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 and SNK vs. Capcom: Chaos. Both had much bigger rosters than ssbm, but the cast was unbelievably unbalenced.

Excuse me whyile I got clean myself up. I pee'd myself because I laughed so hard at your comment.

thx

Anyway MVC2 has 5 playable characters: Magneto, Storm, Sentinal, Psylocke, and DR Doom.

No top player uses anyone else...

In pro SVC, ken, chun li, iori, and Nakaruru (SP)

Any other vids you've seen are pros messing around. Those are the only characters pro use in tourn.. at least: The ones who win.

[fireycheeseball]

WOOT!!! good ideas. koolness coolness sweetness awesomeness pheolominalness and other adjectives+ness

[Noypi_GjD]

No matter what they do, the game will always have tiers and that applies to every fighting game. To say that the only playable characters are the top tier is quite awkward. It seems you have forgotten: Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Doctor Mario, Game and Watch, Link, hell... even Bowser, DK, and Yoshi give me some trouble.
For Nintendo to balance the game so that the 'top' characters have a greater variety would be asking a bit too much, since we probably won't know the tier until all the exploits have been found.

[Bailey]

Any character can win a tournament in the right hands. Ever heard of Dire Vulcan? Yea best Game and Watch in the World. I am pretty sure he has won a fair share of tournaments when he plays.

[homsar]

Also, I counter pick GW all the time.

[Dead Eye 935]

I've seen plenty of medium/low tier characters stand their ground in tournaments. Some people just go for the "strongest" characters (Sheik, Marth, Fox) because they are easier to master IMO. I think the characters are balanced the way they are. Maybe a few minor changes, but that's it.

[dmbrandon]

I've seen plenty of medium/low tier characters stand their ground in tournaments. Some people just go for the "strongest" characters (Sheik, Marth, Fox) because they are easier to master IMO. I think the characters are balanced the way they are. Maybe a few minor changes, but that's it.

against new players, or people who are below pro/ammy status, sure! I can easily beat two people if I play link if they're new.

But they go to a real tourn: and it's a whole 'nother world.