Avoiding Shine-Spikes?

[MuseLives]

I looked through the forum and couldn't find what I was looking for, so if I missed it, I apologize.

My friend and I play a lot of Fox vs. Falco matches (him the fox), and has a very predictable edge-guarding approach, but I can't seem to get around it. Once he gets me off, he always seems to find a way to shine-spike me. I find it to be becaue both of my avenues of recovery (up+B and phantasm) have laggy start-up, so he has an easy time swooping in and hitting me before I can get the move off. :urg: I've tried to throw off his timing with my own shine to stop my movement for brief moments, but he usually adjusts and gets me anyway. My best and most effective way seems to be to drift out of reach, and then if he still comes after me, hit him on the way back with the phantasm. Still, it's really painful seeing that when I do get him with that, he still finds a way to get back on (even when he doesn't meteor cancel) :skull: . So, can anyone give me some advice how to get around this? When I make a small mistake and get thrown off, it's painful to die at such low percents.

[kaiZen]

if you know you have a jump still, try shining and jumping out of it to throw him off. I usually overshoot and try and jump over the fox if he's coming at me for a shine spike. other than that, can't think of anything.

[Kirakitsune]

I can help as a fox player. Anytime you're over the edge, you'll probably be shinespiked. If you overshoot, you will be up smashed. The best way to get back is with a sweetspotted foward+B. It's not worth the risk to jump out and try to shinespike before that goes off. The up+B is just asking to be shinespiked, so don't count on it.
If you hit him with the foward+B and he goes down, but comes back, then you get to edgeguard him. A dair or dsmash or even an fsmash are all goid at getting rid of fox. If he does get back on, pillar him until he wishes he just took that stock himself. I know as a fox player, nothing is more frustrating than the pillar and the SHL.

[MuseLives]

I can help as a fox player. Anytime you're over the edge, you'll probably be shinespiked. If you overshoot, you will be up smashed. The best way to get back is with a sweetspotted foward+B. It's not worth the risk to jump out and try to shinespike before that goes off. The up+B is just asking to be shinespiked, so don't count on it.
If you hit him with the foward+B and he goes down, but comes back, then you get to edgeguard him. A dair or dsmash or even an fsmash are all goid at getting rid of fox. If he does get back on, pillar him until he wishes he just took that stock himself. I know as a fox player, nothing is more frustrating than the pillar and the SHL.

Turning the tables into an edge-guarding opportunity to me would work, I guess I was just being too passive after my recovery to implement it. However, my prolem is that he does take that risk in jumping at the phantasm, and somehow he manages to hit me with it a good 50% of the time, so I normally don't have a shot at sweetspotting and get a chance to make him think twice about going after it again.

[training_master(KVF)]

do you mean he hits you at the starting frames of the phantasm or during the phantasm ?
cause if this fox knows when to do the shine during the phantasm, there is not much you can do, except what has been said above, if second jump, try to trick fox somehow, sometimes it's not bad to use up+b, it can mix things up, and if sweetspotting with phantasm doesn't work, you can always try sweetspotting with up+b from below, although that is easily countered with ledge guarding....
just try to mix his timing somehow, there's no other way with Falco, since his recovery sucks so badly..

[MuseLives]

It's usually during the start-up frames, but occassionally he does get me in the move. Anyway, I'm getting the basic idea now that really my only good approach to it is to keep things unpredictable and kill his timing. This was my only problem fighting him, because on the stage he gets comboed to Oblivion, so if I could eliminate my annual death at 20%, it wouldn't pose much of a threat. Anyway, thanks all for the help, I'll see what I can do. :bigthumbu

[NG7]

Everyone said everything.

However do not start always going straight for the ledge with phantasm. He'll get smart and just edgehog you.

[NJzFinest]

when mew2king tries to shine spike me, he thinks that i'll double jump away and sweetspot phanstam. but i always drop and up b against the side of the stage. meh, that's just him though.

[BrTarolg]

use air dodge to get back onto the stage if you can.

[NJzFinest]

use air dodge to get back onto the stage if you can.
no, cause fox can still shine spike you off lol.
if you're able to come back to the stage with an air dodge, that means you're not to far from stage, right? so if fox misses his shine spike, he'll still be very close to the stage...so...he can just double jump back, d-air to shine you off, then run of the stage, and shine spike you.
well, fox can do multiple this actually, he can grab you, the chain grab you...which isnt pretty
d-air + jab + upsmash you, and if you at high damage..that isn pretty
dsmash you back of the stage
b throw you back of the stage
b-air you back of the stage
blah

so, yea, if ur able to come back on the stage with an air dodge, sweetspot the edge with a firebod positioned at the right angle against the stage's wall instead. or walljump + forward b sweetspot.

[Kirakitsune]

Here's another thing to know. Fox has a difficult time getting falco off the edge. If you stay near the middle, fox doesn't really have enough power to get you out to the edge and run to shine spike you in time. If you play near the edge, then you fall right into fox's hands.

And hitting him with the phantasm 50% of the time is better than nothing. I can say from experience, I look foward to a falco trying to use up+B. It's like fresh meat for a tiger.

[NG7]

If the fox was good enough with his chaingrab utilt usmash juggles, most of fox's moves will send falco a good distance.

[Kirakitsune]

It's hard for fox to pull off a grab when his movement is thrown off timing by SHL and anytime you get close you get pillared. Even SHFFLing throws off the grab if you L-cancel to a shine when you see fox put his sheild up.

[Miharu]

However, you can't assume that the Fox will always remain on the defensive. Fox has quite a few options offensively to grab Falco.

[Fonz]

Eh airdodging onto the stage to avoid a shine isn't a horrible idea. Just like anything, you don't want to become predictable, but throwing it into the mix every now and then can't hurt. If the fox actually bites and goes for the shine and misses while you airdodge, I'd be very surprised if you got dair->chaingrabbed. He's just talking about playing a buddy of his, not someone like M2K =O. Even if he does get chaingrabbed after getting back on the stage (assuming they're playing on FD), its better than a shinespike.

Like you said, your recovery is predictable, and your opponent has clearly figured out your patterns. I don't think any of the advise any of these people have given you is a 100% surefire method for recovering. One doesn't exist. Your best bet is probably to learn how to do all of the methods mentioned, and just try to predict fox's approach and avoid becoming repeatitive. Some methods are also stage dependant. On battlefield you have a few less options.

[krazyzyko]

1.Mid-air jump Sex kick to avoid the shine and then fb.
2.Fast fall then comeback.
3.Jump really fast and Phantasm over him.

...................later

[xelad1]

get better than him and kick his *** enough to even it out. Falco has a really great ability to combo fox like mad, if you can learn to do that than youll be able to match his quick shine spiking kills.