Falco vs Marth

[Davidyor]

hey guys,
i guess this question has been asked already thousands of times, but i seem not to be able to find an answere in all those threads, not even all the guides tell me why...

i got two problems when facing marth, the main one is the shine - spike combo. when playing vs my friends marth im always too slow. i shine and jump up to spike but when trying to spike he always uses his down - b attack to counter the spike and so im almost never able to do that combo.
am i too slow or is there something i've been missing to do? i read all those guides, but after doing the shine, everybody just jumps up and does a spike to his opponent, right? so do i have to be just faster or whats my problem?
btw.: do you always l-cancel between doing the spike and doing the shine after?

ok my second problem is my SHL. i try to do it as good as possible, but very often i dont hit my opponent and if i hit it's always a headshot (vs marth). vs smaller characters or running characters i never hit, i always shoot above their head.
ok my combo works like this: i short hop, shoot and fastfall. shall i better short hop, fast fall and shoot to hit my opponent on the height of the knees?
my SHL would be way better if it would always hit instead of only 50 % hit percentage.

thanks a lot

David

P. S.: before flaming, remember: this board would be nothing without n00bs like me asking the same questions day by day.

[Eaode]

well, I don't Main Falco, so I don't know much about his shine combos. But as for your SHL, just do it faster, you should be able to Fastfall quick enough for the laser to reach regular firing altitude.

[Davidyor]

you mean, when shooting i gotta fastfall as fast as possible and so the laser shot goes down as well?

[training_master(KVF)]

you just have to learn how to time your laser a bit later, if you fast fall before shooting, the laser never comes out. and you should ALWAYS l-cancel your aerials, it really does make the difference..
as for the shine> dair combo, if the marth is at low % I almost always do two shines to uair to get a nice 40 % done.. after that you should have enough time to get the dair after shine to connect...
but DI can and will mess things up, but if you can't get a dair through, do a bair to get just some % done, every % counts..

[Kai_]

In other words, it's called practice.

[bornfidelity.com]

Just like with Peach and a lot of other characters, shine -> spike -> shine -> spike is too slow, and you'll get hit out of it. Instead, use shine -> spike and then fastfall but instead of shine use utilt. You can use it earlier because it hits higher and it's alot faster that way. Plus it's easy comboing out of utilt.
For the SHL, shorthop, press B a bit later and fastfall as fast as possible, basically. Practice this ALOT

When trying to get SHL down a long time ago, I got on FD vs a lvl 1 jigglypuff and SHLd him up to 400%. Twice. Next day, it was natural. ^^

[Davidyor]

so its actually impossible to do a shine - spike combo vs a marth using his down - b - attack?
or did you mean, i just gotta be faster?
when watching bombsoldier vs ken matches, bombsoldier always succeds when doing his shine - spike combos. and ken doesnt even try to counter it with down - b. is there a secret or is bombsoldier just fast enough?
i think i need too much time when jumping out of my shine, could that be the reason? allthough i have the feeling it aint possible to be faster, so am i wrong?

[bornfidelity.com]

BS uses shine -> spike -> shine -> spike?

utilt is safer... it mightve been mindgaming, such as Ken expecting the utilt and hence choosing DI over using an escaping attack hence getting hit by the next shine?

[Davidyor]

i dont get how to do a utilt, i mean as soon as i press the control stick up, my character jumps, so how does it work?

btw: last night i finally managed several times do combo (shine featuring spike) my opponents marth. it only worked to me, when i pressed x/y for only one time, usually i keep spamming x/y as soon, as i did the shine.

and my SHL is kinda perfect now =)

[bornfidelity.com]

Utilting gets hard to do when playing fast, because if you hit UP too hard you jump, and if you hit A too fast, you'll upsmash. To utilt you have to either push the control stick up rather slowly and then press A, or have it pressed up before the game registers (say you want to utilt after a shffld aerial, be holding UP while LCANCELLING so the control stick is already UP after the aerial and you only have to press A).

...it becomes quite natural tho...

[Kai_]

......cmon.... or you can just push it up like halfway or 1/3 of the way and press A. That should be the easiest way for you.

[Davidyor]

hey,
i can cancel (shorter) a shine by pressing the control stick up, right?
but i wonder how that works (shine spam vs shield), whenever i do press up, he quits the shine and jumps up... whats my mistake, do i press up too fast or too hard or what's the problem?

btw: in that case it should be also faster when using the control stick - up to do a shine spike combo, right? i usually did a shine and pressed y/x, but shouldnt it be way faster if i do a shine and press up?

thanks

[Davidyor]

and why do i sometimes not have a jump after a kick of my opponent, allthough i did not use my second jump in the air?

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

hey,
i can cancel (shorter) a shine by pressing the control stick up, right?
but i wonder how that works (shine spam vs shield), whenever i do press up, he quits the shine and jumps up... whats my mistake, do i press up too fast or too hard or what's the problem?

btw: in that case it should be also faster when using the control stick - up to do a shine spike combo, right? i usually did a shine and pressed y/x, but shouldnt it be way faster if i do a shine and press up?

thanks
no. unless for some resaon you find it really hard to JC with x/y quickly.
do whatever is easier.

and why do i sometimes not have a jump after a kick of my opponent, allthough i did not use my second jump in the air?
because you actually already used your second jump. =p
or you're too stunned from the attack to jump.
or some weird scenario that i'm not thinking about. can you double jump after being hit out of a firefox or illusion? dunno.

[doink]

I'm pretty sure that with SHL you can SH then FF and then laser if you are quick enough and this will cause the laser to shoot lower. Practice makes perfect and i think there are just some characters that you cannot shine->spike effectively or at all if they know what they are doing

[magar]

Falco vs Marth

Falco Pwns Marth :P

[xelad1]

Like others have said practice is the key here.

I understand your problem with tilting i had the same one too. In my opinion the best way to get better is to firstly put yourself out on a limb every match, try to use every hard technique at least a few times (ergo shine to spike, waveshining, shls (preferably more than twice hehe) , and tilts try all directions falco doesnt really have any BAD tilts his worst one is his forward and its not useless by any means).

Another thing you want to do is just some simple static practice. Just do drills like you would if you were learning how to shoot free throws or play a certain song on an instrument. Wavedash back and forth across the stage, forwards and backwards. Do shine to spikes then fastfall a lot (prefferably try this on level 1 computers because if you do it without hitting someone it will ruin your timing). Try waveshining into a shine then waveshining again. Just think of as many different drills, these will all improve your technical skill.

For shls first practice just getting them down consistantly while standing, next try to move around the stage with them (shl dash forward shl dash etc). After you have practiced this try running and shling and then jumping into a shffled aerial of any sort( best bets would be dair and nair), also try shls then wavedashing backwards for a retreat or forwards to grab. Also try shling and then dashing to grab someone. Remember there is NO lag time after your shl.

A couple of small tips that helped my game a lot though may not work for everyone, so don't blame me. If you want to wavedash with falco easier (because his timing is hard) practice wavedashing with ganondorf! His is even harder than falcos imo because the timing is even slower. If you can get it down with ganondorf move on to falco, falcos wavedash will then feel more like a normal timing since doing it with ganondorf is slower. You can also go to training mode and slow down the gamespeed to get yourself used to wavedashing a little slower. This worked for me, like I said not necessarily for everyone.

Also it becomes a lot easier to shl with falco if you can shl with fox because fox is a much more sensitive character, hell it becomes easier to sffl short hop, jc shine, a lot of things with falco if you can do them with fox because foxes controls take more precision. I just found playing with someone harder than falco made falco seem comparatively easy (it doesnt hurt to become decent with fox too heh). This is the same logic i have for wding with ganondorf. like i said it worked for me.

After you have a routine of static drills you can do like i said go back and use these in real matches. Also note that you should not always try and hit the level 1 computer you are against sometimes just try different stuff out and whiff it you dont want to get stuck in a mentality of being able to shine spike a lvl 1 all the time. So instead of shine to spiking a level 1 computer FORCE yourself to shine, wavedash once or twice shffl a dair, shine wavedash again and shffl a uair. Just make up different combos make sure you dont get stuck in the same patter.

Good luck!

(Im sorry this post is so long and lacking in much punctuation, im tired :( just trying to help)

[InfiniteGXT]

Sorry to take over this thread but it focuses on some of the things covered in here. I got owned at a tourney today by an @$$ of a marth player who spamed the hell out of all marths cheap moves. He would Fsmash spam, dtilt randomly throwing me off guard, spam neutral B, and uber spam Counter. It was rediculous. He was such a n00b but I lost to him anyway! Im no n00b. I have beaten people better than that before. But I just dont understand how after everything Ive done to progress as a falco player I still lose to an idiot like that who doent know any Advanced Tactics or anything. There was nothing I could do. I spammed SHL and he jumped and Faired me. I try to sweetspot and he Fsmashes. If he missed the Fsmash he immediately Spamed neutral B. If I roll back onto the stage he Fsmashed me the other way. I try to shffl Dairs or Nairs and he just countered. How the heck do I handle that crap?

[shminkledorf]

blah blah pwned by marth cause I have no idea what to do in this game

Grab him. Dthrow > techchase