JST5, 2 & 3 December, Holland, RESULTS: Amsah 1st, CJ 2nd, EK 3rd, Helios 4th!!!!!!!!

[EK]

They agree cause Yoshi story is not on... its on Random in US on all tournys why not here. Weel thats cause you guys plays sheik and need to win more^^

[Linkje]

This is a proposition regarding the ruleset, made by Amsah, JD, Captain Jack and me. We think all the current counterpick stages should be banned with the rest of the stages, leaving only the random stages for tournament play. We don’t entirely agree on which stages should be left, but we compromised and came up with:

Final Destination, Dream Land 64, Fountain of Dreams, Pokémon Stadium and Battlefield.

Note that there can still be counterpicked between those stages. The whole point of the proposition is to have our ruleset resemble the Japanese only more closely, which we feel is more fair. I think this is a good idea because the recent changes made to our ruleset worked out really well and the fact many top players agree on this should say something.

I posted it here so people can comment on it a little. Only post rational arguments and try not to get emotional. Stuff like ‘stage xxx should be in because it is more FUN that way’ is NOT valid, this is about a competitive tournament. We are already quite lenient, seeing how we come up with five stages instead of just two. Also note that this is a joined effort, I’m just the one posting it.

We already discussed this battlefield en fod of random :s yoshi story has more right to be on random then battlefield

[Nihonjin]

They agree cause Yoshi story is not on... its on Random in US on all tournys why not here. Weel thats cause you guys plays sheik and need to win more^^

I actually WANTED YS on....

[Svampen]

I want Mute city on...>_< >_> <_<

and YS

[Faab]

YS has more right to be on random then FoD, besides that i think its very nice to get abit more serious and i really hope jeffz0r will implement it at this tournament.

[Joanna Dark]

yeah we had a quite long discussion about stages and we all found a consensus where no one has what he wanted, but at least, it's a consensus !
oh, and EK, it's not everywhere for YS... only in North America and a large part of Europe... France and Japan don't allow YS... nor battlefield, nor pokemon stadium.
as Faab said, it's time to get more serious about smash, and reducing the number of stages could be a start. do you think it's normal to count on a stage more than on your skills to win a match? I thought tournaments were here so we could test our personnal skills, the most accurate way possible. I think good rules are the key to show better skill battles, which means more good and intense matches to watch !
I spoke.

[Player Pink]

why do you even bother to post this.... it's not like my or ANYONE'S opinion is going to change the random because ALL tournament host think that better players are also smarter people... that's all i've got to say about this... I think I'm going to have a USEFULL discussion like whether the right word is pool or poule >_>

and i agree with amsah. YS on counterpick at least

[Marc]

Yeah, what we proposed was a consensus. In fact, none of us fully agrees with it. However, the proposition should stay as it is now imo, we already went through debate for it.

Michael: Jeffz0r was actually quite sceptical about our plan, although he had to admit the reasoning behind it is good (he was in the debate convo on MSN). We put it here so everyone has a chance to bring forth arguments against and in favour of the plan.

[shoe]

Even tough I dislike batlefield and it's edges, I do like these rules, I think they are less in favor of any character, the last set of rules we used was sooooo pro Marth.

[(Prince) Shadow]

[Ik voel een ''Supreme Links'' tijdperk aankomen he Shadow ;)]

that's about till where i read today.
just came back from turkey. missed your spamming <3

[beunhaas]

Don't **** martplayers with this ruleset :(

[Cypher]

Yo Cypher wanneer gaanwe weer smashen,kom ik jou en edwin ff inmaken

Ha, grappenmaker. Mijn fox is sterk verbetert, heb ed paar keer ge-4-stocked. Ed Zei dat je nog geen infinite shine kon, als je het nog niet kan wil ik het je wel leren, hij zei dat je ook bezig was met fox. Kunnen we wat fox moves uitwisselen. Anders moet je maar een keer een mailtje sturen wanneer je tijd hebt, kunnen vast wel een keer afspreken.

hou 't straat

[Cypher]

that's about till where i read today.
just came back from turkey. missed your spamming <3

Welcome back

[SexyMeth]

Ha, grappenmaker. Mijn fox is sterk verbetert, heb ed paar keer ge-4-stocked. Ed Zei dat je nog geen infinite shine kon, als je het nog niet kan wil ik het je wel leren, hij zei dat je ook bezig was met fox. Kunnen we wat fox moves uitwisselen. Anders moet je maar een keer een mailtje sturen wanneer je tijd hebt, kunnen vast wel een keer afspreken.

hou 't straat

hou 't straat
in etten-leur word moeilijk
tenzij je het over jaWat hebt

[A-D]

Ha, grappenmaker. Mijn fox is sterk verbetert, heb ed paar keer ge-4-stocked. Ed Zei dat je nog geen infinite shine kon, als je het nog niet kan wil ik het je wel leren, hij zei dat je ook bezig was met fox. Kunnen we wat fox moves uitwisselen. Anders moet je maar een keer een mailtje sturen wanneer je tijd hebt, kunnen vast wel een keer afspreken.

hou 't straat

Kijk zo wil ik t horen spreek vandaag af ik heb nix te doen!

[(Prince) Shadow]

iedereen is nu hier

eerste matches: grappemaker 4-stocked Cypher :laugh:

[DevMBC]

Dutchies are cool an dutchies are nice =]
But JAM5 has mad skills like that of Amsah.. twice! o_o

[Helios]

I'm not surprised to see 3 shiek players and one falco player come up with these stages lol XD

IMO battlefield is less fair than YS, seeing how the glitchy *** edges mess up the recoveries of several chars. Sure, YS has small walls, but no DI in the world can save you from glitchy edges!

Oh and the whole "less stages makes it more serious" is a moot argument. Why don't we all play FD only then, to make it "super serial!"

[Cypher]

iedereen is nu hier

eerste matches: grappemaker 4-stocked Cypher :laugh:

En versla hem daarna met mijn no-skill falco :P. Sommige matches zijn gewoon...raar

[A-D]

En versla hem daarna met mijn no-skill falco :P. Sommige matches zijn gewoon...raar


hahaha..maar nu je het zegt speel ik eigenlijk echt nooit tegen een goeie falco :/ dusja..en jij speelt heel raar met falco :P..Maar waarschijnlijk alswe meer matches hadden gedaan datk dan wel meer wist hoe je speelde..maarjaa met fox opje fox 4stock en met me falco op je fox 4 stock is toch wel chill..maar toen speelde ik nog echt serieus,Maar naarmate ik 5 uur lang smash ga ik minder spelen :/ bij jou is dat net andersom..:/ T_T Maar Goeie Matches

En edwin helemaal kapot gespiked:P

[Cypher]

hahaha..maar nu je het zegt speel ik eigenlijk echt nooit tegen een goeie falco :/ dusja..en jij speelt heel raar met falco :P..Maar waarschijnlijk alswe meer matches hadden gedaan datk dan wel meer wist hoe je speelde..maarjaa met fox opje fox 4stock en met me falco op je fox 4 stock is toch wel chill..maar toen speelde ik nog echt serieus,Maar naarmate ik 5 uur lang smash ga ik minder spelen :/ bij jou is dat net andersom..:/ T_T Maar Goeie Matches

En edwin helemaal kapot gespiked:P

Cker, binnenkort weer. Miss komende week weer, we zien wel. Ik zal kijken of ik mijn falco wat kan opkrikken.

hou 't straat

[A-D]

Cker, binnenkort weer. Miss komende week weer, we zien wel. Ik zal kijken of ik mijn falco wat kan opkrikken.

hou 't straat

Aaight..laat t maar weten

[Z-N_Freak]

Mogen er daar nog meer mensen bijkomen? Kwil best gezellig een middagje smash ergens hier in de buurt. Alst mag, waar wonen jullie ongeveer?

[A-D]

Mogen er daar nog meer mensen bijkomen? Kwil best gezellig een middagje smash ergens hier in de buurt. Alst mag, waar wonen jullie ongeveer?

Vraag aan SexyMeth een x ofje bij hem kan langskomen,Hij vind jou Dope

[Marc]

I'm not surprised to see 3 shiek players and one falco player come up with these stages lol XD

Pff, that's like the worst argument ever. I'm also a Peach player who usually only picks Peach in combination with something like Mute City, this really kills some of my counterpicks. I'm confident enough to play on just the neutral stages though. Also, someone like CJ has already proven he doesn't need stage advantages to win.

IMO battlefield is less fair than YS, seeing how the glitchy *** edges mess up the recoveries of several chars. Sure, YS has small walls, but no DI in the world can save you from glitchy edges!

I think Battlefield is less gay than YS, but if you want to make a point about banning that stage as well, be my guest.

Oh and the whole "less stages makes it more serious" is a moot argument. Why don't we all play FD only then, to make it "super serial!"

It's not about how many stages, it's about how good they are. If there were 50 good stages in the game, there would be 50 stages turned on. For the record, I could live with just FD and DL64 turned on.

As for the whining Marth players (who ALWAYS are the ones whining about ruleset changes): You should bring actual arguments to the table about why Marth gets screwed over so incredibly on big stages that don't involve three platforms right next to each other and/or why those stages are so incredibly biased towards Sheik. I really don't see it.

[bornfidelity.com]

On the stages, I'm for putting Yoshi's Story in there instead of FoD as well. Moving game-distorting platforms for the lose, cloud/shy guys not for the lose.

And I disagree with Battlefield on random as well, but I can live with that.
I'm still in favour of a poll in International Community on the stages. The idea of no weird counterpick stages suits me just fine, but I feel that more people should have a saying in what stages we *do* play, whether on random or not.

I think everyone agrees on FD and Dream Land 64; so a poll would consist of combinations of FoD, Stadium, Yoshi's Story and Battlefield. Which is like 10 options. Or none of them. Who has the power to make a poll? ^^

[Helios]

There shouldn't be any discussion whether to have PS on random or not. That stage is probably THE most fair stage.

Personally I can live without the counterpick-stages too (I never lose ;)), but having only say 5 stages on makes both stage banning and DSR kind of pointless, which will result in a falco - peach match ending up something like this:

Match 1: PS
Match 2: DL64
Match 3: FD
Match 4: DL64
Match 5: FD

Yay, super happy fun time! =D

[Marc]

Except I don't think everyone should have a vote in this, some people are clearly better and know more about the game than random n00b #xxx. Some kind of vote could be organised though, we also don't need a poll for that.

In the discussion we basically got to a point where we thought YS isn't even debatable, as that would mean stages like Mute City and Brinstar should also come back. I personally am also completely against YS and I'm really not the only one in that. I understand your argument against FoD, especially since you're a Falco player, but replacing it with YS is not an option imo.

[Marc]

There shouldn't be any discussion whether to have PS on random or not. That stage is probably THE most fair stage.

I really disagree with that, as does for example Remen (and apparently Japan). The ceiling is quite low, you sometimes don't see yourself when coming back and the stage changes are gay. If it were entirely up to me, I would probably kick it out of random right away.

Personally I can live without the counterpick-stages too (I never lose ), but having only say 5 stages on makes both stage banning and DSR kind of pointless,

Who said stage banning is required?

which will result in a falco - peach match ending up something like this:

Match 1: PS
Match 2: DL64
Match 3: FD
Match 4: DL64
Match 5: FD

Yay, super happy fun time! =D

Possibly, but I don't think those stages mean a guaranteed win for those characters. And is that really that much different from how stages are picked now? We could also implement a rule that makes it so you can't counterpick the last stage you won on.

[Helios]

DSR = You can't choose the stage you last won on.

I'm not saying it's a guaranteed win for either character on those stages, but it's an advantage, and a logical outcome. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but that does not look very entertaining.

[Marc]

Because DSR is often misinterpreted, I decided to just describe it.

The issue with this is that it's still not really the Japanese ruleset, where there are only two stages anyway, so there still is counterpicking involved. On the other hand, the fact that our proposition has 5 stages and the option of implementing something like DSR, it still has more variety, which you seem to enjoy so much.

[Helios]

5 stages and DSR would, at the score of 1-1, limit the reasonable choices down to 1 or 2, depending on char, I'd say. Say I'm falco, facing a peach that just beat me on DL64 after I beat her on PS. Where do I go?

FoD? Stupid platforms and d-smashes will easily **** falco over.
PS? I just won there, not an option.
DL64? Against peach? Yeah, right.
Battlefield? Getting ****ed by the edges happens way too often. Might aswell just forget about recovering at all. Still second best option.
FD? Yes plx.

So, in this situation I'm given only ONE good option. I dunno about you guys, but I actually like variety.

[Joanna Dark]

helios, falco is advantaged against peach on DL64... he can spam and camp with lasers and kill peach with down tilt pretty easily ! seriously, stop considering DL64 as peach's stage ! fox and falco are both good against peach on DL64.
DSR would be stupid with only 5 stages imo...

[Helios]

No, fox isn't good vs peach on DL64.
I agree about falco tho, and falco is also heavily favoured by this ruleset =/

[Joanna Dark]

fox IS advantaged against peach on DL64. peach can't catch a fox running away and shooting lasers !
I think fox and falco are just very very good and can adapt to a lot of situations, which makes them good on a lot of stages, this ruleset doesn't advantage falco that much, you're exagerating.

[Doraki]

I'm in favor of putting all those 6 stages. I liked playing on battlefield in the us.
if you think YS is gay, DL64 has to be gay too.

and falco should be banned already, everyone knows that.

[(Prince) Shadow]

all stages have something negatives on one character. I know this sounds stupid and noobish, but still It's the truth.
if you realy want a clean stage, take FD on the first match. then let the loser counterpick the next one.
I don't realy care about the counterpicks

[Thomaz]

FD is not the best stage in the game. Why don't people realise that?

You're Fox against a chaingrabbing Marth. GG.

Yes, I know you're not supposed to get grabbed then, but you'll get grabbed at least once and if the guy's good, that's lost stock.

Now tell me, is that fair? I think not.

Edit: and tbh, I have never had trouble against Marths, I like YS. Yoshi Story totally owns Battlefield and Fountain of Dreams. FoD heavily favors Peach and Sheik, nothing more.

I'm all up for Yoshi's, Stadium, FD and Dreamland on random.

[Z-N_Freak]

PS is teh best stage ;)
It changes so that noone has a real advantage disadvantage all the time :)

I think:
PS as first stage
Counter Pick loser
Counter Pick Loser

The first match is fair
the second match is maybe not and could be in favor of the loser of the first stage.
the third match is in favor of the winner of the first match (if he knows how to counterpick)

So that looks fair to me.

Only thing what I *love* about PS is that between the changing stage you can get killed trough the stage :/
It happened to my friend last saturday when we were playing fox dito's He was shined trough the stage, lol

If that happens the match should be canceled and played again or something like that, though it almost never happens :)

edit:
Vraag aan SexyMeth een x ofje bij hem kan langskomen,Hij vind jou Dope

Wie is dat precies? waarom vind hij mij dope, lol
Heb ik toevallig tegen hem gespeeld op Zest ofso?
Waar wonen jullie trouwens, want mss is het wel te ver weg :( dan kan ik hoe dan ook niet komen :/

[Cypher]

Prince Shadow, Sexy Meth en ik wonen in Etten-Leur. A-D Woont in de buurt. Dus als iemand een keer wil langskomen om te smashen mag hij dat zeker doen.