The 2006-2008 Tier list

[StripesOrBars]

sorry, but you post the dumbest things i've heard in a long while

first, the "common" thing a falco would do isn't always the smartest. again, which do you think is a better choice?
1. charging at a crouching shiek
2. adjust your SHL and get free damage

second, it doesn't matter if you're facong a good shiek player or not. the difficulty of the SHL stays the same
Please stop.
You guys have gone way too off-topic, how about one of you starts a thread called ''what is a pro smasher?''

Back to topic now, I agree that the tier list would be better and more accurate if it was based on actual character attributes instead of the metagame. The main reason why is because the list loses a lot of its accuracy when it gets to middle tier and lower, since it becomes much harder to compare characters that see less action in tournaments.

Oh, I also suggest the addition of a new tier that would be called sumtin like ''Low tiers that don't suck that much'' tier. The chars that would fit there are basically the chars that dominate low tier tournaments and that see less play at normal tournies because of the presence of the broken chars. The bottom half of the tier list could then look like so:

Low tiers that don't suck that much:
Link
Luigi
DK
Roy

Low tier:
Young Link
Pika
Yoshi
Zelda

Bottom tier:
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mew2
The tier list being of tournament placings is stupid IMO also.

However.

You're very wrong in you're "tiers that dont suck" thingy.

All of the "low tiers that dont suck that much" and low tiers beat the crap outta eachother.

Y. Link owns Dk as wells as Zelda and Pika.

Pika and Y.Link do well vs Link and Luigi.

It's all one big counter tier. All the current 5 tiers counter themselves.

[mcc]

Please stop.

please stop what? asking questions you guys are too embarassed to answer?



why is mewtwo last in the tiers if taj and mookierah are so good with them?

[JBM falcon08]

Azen is too good as Mewtwo. Azen beat Chudat when he was playing as samus, and azen playing mewtwo.

[NJ'zFinest]

please stop what? asking questions you guys are too embarassed to answer?
I just answered yours, bottom of the last page :)
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1707144&postcount=360

why is mewtwo last in the tiers if taj and mookierah are so good with them?
Taj and MookieRah...ARE ONLY TWO PEOPLE. Also, Taj doesn't even place that high :laugh: I have no clue about MookieRah

Azen is too good as Mewtwo. Azen beat Chudat when he was playing as samus, and azen playing mewtwo.
:P
who isn't Azen too good with?

[mcc]

um...ok, and your point? Falcos still don't adjust it, that's all that matters. Results are the only things that matter, not possiblities.

I WASNT TALKIN ABOUT IT'S DIFFICULTY! You said it wasn't annoying to adjust and keep spaming, therefore, the Sheiks you play must not be that good if they let you do that.
well then i'll just have to say that if falcos really don't adjust their SHL to hit a crouching shiek, they're not that smart.

i never get to play anyone good anyways. the only time was last saturday.
it takes a second to adjust the SHL. how would they react to that?


there aren't any kirbys that stand out as much as taj and mookie, so why is kirby above mewtwo? and even if there are only 2 good mewtwos, they're still very good with them, which should tell us that mewtwos don't suck THAt much

[NJ'zFinest]

well then i'll just have to say that if falcos really don't adjust their SHL to hit a crouching shiek, they're not that smart.
Actually, it's better to just appoarch sheik then spend your time camping imo. The best Falcos don't camp.

i never get to play anyone good anyways. the only time was last saturday.
it takes a second to adjust the SHL. how would they react to that?
Lol, jump while you have their SHL pace ****ed up


there aren't any kirbys that stand out as much as taj and mookie,
yes...there are...lol KKK, Omni, Kirbstir, KK90...and pretty much the point that people who use Kirby generally do better than Mew2 players. Let's not just note the well known players...I mean, it is based on the majority.

so why is kirby above mewtwo? and even if there are only 2 good mewtwos, they're still very good with them, which should tell us that mewtwos don't suck THAt much
They are very good but still do bad...I don't see your point.

[mcc]

Actually, it's better to just appoarch sheik then spend your time camping imo. The best Falcos don't camp.

Lol, jump while you have their SHL pace ****ed up


yes...there are...lol KKK, Omni, Kirbstir, KK90...and pretty much the point that people who use Kirby generally do better than Mew2 players. Let's not just note the well known players...I mean, it is based on the majority.

They are very good but still do bad...I don't see your point.

if a shiek crouches a SHL and jumps right after it, it's not like the falco is going to stop. she would just get hit on her way down. (this is assuming she's not near you. I usually spam SHL when the opponent is far away from me).

ok nvm about that then :P

well the best mewtwos can't be worse than many of the lower tiers above them, so i just thought he should be raised a little

[NJ'zFinest]

well the best mewtwos can't be worse than many of the lower tiers above them, so i just thought he should be raised a little
the problem is that the best mew2s are the only ones who "know how" to use them. Eventhough Mew2 isn't a good character at all, most of the people who use him are straightup horrible at this game.

[BigRick]

the problem is that the best mew2s are the only ones who "know how" to use them. Eventhough Mew2 isn't a good character at all, most of the people who use him are straightup horrible at this game.

LOL let's post this on the Mewtwo boards!

To Doodah: I know they have counters that are ranked below them, but don't you think that in overall, the group of Link, Luigi, DK and Roy is better than the group of Y.Link, Pika, Yoshi and Zelda? A character can be better than its counter, even if the counter-character has the ability to abuse the weakness of the char.

Example: IC's counter Sheik... but that doesn't make them better than Sheik overall.

[StripesOrBars]

i never get to play anyone good anyways.

LOL GG nub.

[Mud Buddha]

style and potential aren't the same thing. What a character can do and what a player chooses to use have little in common.

He didn't say that they equate to the same thing. The point he's making is that potential = more styles. More styles = difficult to counter.

What? That is so incredible wrong. A professional is someone who is skilled at what they do, let's even check ol' Merriam-Webster.

1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

Sure, one can be a paid professional, or in certain situations it implies that, but definitely not when talking about a videogame player.

The first definition defines a professional as someone who follows a profession. i.e. Someone being paid to do something.

The second definition pretty much speaks for itself.

The third definition defines it as a skilled practitioner. A practitioner being someone who follows a certain occupation. i.e. Getting paid to do something.

The only point you've got me on is the skill behind it.

[offtheheezay10]

Go Yoshi! He may not be high tier but I'm using him in the next tourney. Good tier list.

[Inferno_blaze]

Ok can mcc please shutup and the people arguing with him, if one side stops posting, neither will have wo and the other will stop too, please get back on track or this topic will likely close, I also would like a tier list for ability to, even with the whole countering I still think it could work, (plus boozer would be a bit higher :p).

[NJ'zFinest]

I love it how you said that after the "argument" stopped.

[Inferno_blaze]

I'm sure he'd post again soon. yeah it was a bit late

[nookrulz]

Nope YOU"RE wrong.

The definition of a "Pro Smasher" is:

Someone who has AT LEAST the 16th highest MLG rank points.

so then Husband isn't a Pro? Vidjo isn't a pro? Drephen isn't a pro? Those guys are all extremely skilled - I think anyone sensible would call them pros. Not to mention KillaOR, who, say what you will about his playing, signed a contract with MLG to get paid to play smash, regardless of the result.

[g-regulate]

nookrulz i think he's right. an actual "pro smasher" would be someone who is payed to play at the MLG's. i think your point is, that some smashers are just as good as the top 16 MLG peeps, which is also true. i make roughly $30-$150 at local tourneys depending on the size and skill level of smashers there, but i would hardly consider myself to be a "pro", the same way i wouldn't consider someone who had the basketball talent of an NBA basketball player, but wasn't in the NBA, a "pro". but, your connection between being "pro" and being "good" is right, there are just some people who are "good" who aren't "pros".

[Umbreon]

there aren't any kirbys that stand out as much as taj and mookie, so why is kirby above mewtwo? and even if there are only 2 good mewtwos, they're still very good with them, which should tell us that mewtwos don't suck THAt much

because, as I stated before, tiers are based on the characters, not potential. Players give their characters potential.

Regardless, Mewtwo has no potential either, whereas Kirby has exploitable strategies and Mewtwo does not.

Mewtwo isn't even a complete character, he's not good enough to be labeled "complete, yet bad" so don't use him in your examples. You have 25 valid complete characters to choose from and yet you choose the only flawed one. Why?

He didn't say that they equate to the same thing. The point he's making is that potential = more styles. More styles = difficult to counter.

To address this, once you get really good at the game, style has less of an impact than it does at lower levels, which makes this arguement fairly invalid.

EDIT: mcc I sincerely suggest you stop posting and learn more before you propose weak, unsubstaniated, or straightforth false statements. You will learn at a faster rate without embarassing yourself to the extent you seem to be aiming at.

[Mud Buddha]

A-are you kidding?

[Umbreon]

no, which is why you'll see top players focus their attention to patience rather than style. If you never screw up your style of play makes little difference, you'll never get punished for it.

[NJ'zFinest]

EDIT: mcc I sincerely suggest you stop posting and learn more before you propose weak, unsubstaniated, or straightforth false statements. You will learn at a faster rate without embarassing yourself to the extent you seem to be aiming at.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Mud Buddha]

no, which is why you'll see top players focus their attention to patience rather than style. If you never screw up your style of play makes little difference, you'll never get punished for it.

Playing patiently is a variation on your STYLE of play. Mind games, strategy, and execution are all factors in a player's over-all STYLE.

Imagine player X using a pill happy Doc (Pill Happy being the STYLE). Against a Marth that prefers to play very defensively (Camping being the STYLE), it should occur to the Marth to start taking the offensive. Using strings of Fairs with Marth should chew through the Pills, and unless the Doc changes his style, he will lose. This is called STYLE COUNTERING, and in this matchup, is relatively easy to pull off.

If you then imagine that player X used a Falco, and started SHLing like madman, the best bet for the Marth is usually to play defensive, utilizing the shield. But Falco also has a great grab game. So if player X switches styles to a more grab oriented one, he gains the STYLE advantage again. But then what? The Marth changes style of course. To a more offensive one, utilizing powerful aerial combos. This situation calls for another style change on the part of the Falco to a more evasive one.

Thus the cycle continues.

Falco having more potential, thus more styles, makes it more difficult to know what he is going to do in a fight than the Doc.

(I'm aware of the simplified nature of this example)

[Jossy]

oh well
i personally dont care about any tier lists
but yoshi's place on this one is just rediculous lol

[Umbreon]

Playing patiently is a variation on your STYLE of play. Mind games, strategy, and execution are all factors in a player's over-all STYLE.

Imagine player X using a pill happy Doc (Pill Happy being the STYLE). Against a Marth that prefers to play very defensively (Camping being the STYLE), it should occur to the Marth to start taking the offensive. Using strings of Fairs with Marth should chew through the Pills, and unless the Doc changes his style, he will lose. This is called STYLE COUNTERING, and in this matchup, is relatively easy to pull off.

If you then imagine that player X used a Falco, and started SHLing like madman, the best bet for the Marth is usually to play defensive, utilizing the shield. But Falco also has a great grab game. So if player X switches styles to a more grab oriented one, he gains the STYLE advantage again. But then what? The Marth changes style of course. To a more offensive one, utilizing powerful aerial combos. This situation calls for another style change on the part of the Falco to a more evasive one.

Thus the cycle continues.

Falco having more potential, thus more styles, makes it more difficult to know what he is going to do in a fight than the Doc.

(I'm aware of the simplified nature of this example)

no, you're just wrong. Patience and style having nothing to do with each other, which makes the rest of your arguement invalid. Your arguements can't be applied. What you're referring to is techniques, which have no bearing on patience at all.

[Mud Buddha]

On the record here: Are you actually saying that if there are two people play Smash, one of which plays very patiently waiting for an opportunity to attack, and one who plays impatiently, charging head on, that there is no difference in their styles?

[Umbreon]

yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Style is choice of technique, nothing else.

[Mud Buddha]

Wow.

UmbreonMow, ladies and gentlemen, UmbreonMow.

[SwiftBass]

IMHO I would not classify STYLE and PATIENCE in the same category, they are both completely different aspects of the game. I believe that everyone has a certain STYLE that they play with thats unique, but in the same fashion is some form of the mainstream things we see. I mean ppl could say that they have their own style, but when it comes down to it, there are general things like aggressive, defensive, and control. These to me are the main aspects of the game, thus the term style can be considered to be broad. EX: I dont play exactly like Masashi(once known as the best fox but im not sure of the rankings now), but I would call my fox a defensive one.......anyway the two are completely different and cannot be comparted in my opinion.

Patience. I think of it as more of a personal thing. Thinking whether to wavedash back to try to hold my ground and set up my opponent or whether to wavedash in and F-smash and catch the opponent off guard is what comes to my mind. I think of patience as more of execution and timing. I believe that UmbrenonMow talks about patience as more of a pro-level vs. pro-level aspect where theres a given amount of execution an minimal mistakes to take into consideration. The pros often execute techs very well and as we know some of those techs(if performed perfectly) have little to no openings. OKAY getting to patience part, patience is the ablility to wait and see where the opponent makes an error/does something risky and capitalize(to me one of KEN's best aspects). And determining whats "safe" and whats "risky" to me is another aspect of the game.

[SwiftBass]

nookrulz i think he's right. an actual "pro smasher" would be someone who is payed to play at the MLG's. i think your point is, that some smashers are just as good as the top 16 MLG peeps, which is also true. i make roughly $30-$150 at local tourneys depending on the size and skill level of smashers there, but i would hardly consider myself to be a "pro", the same way i wouldn't consider someone who had the basketball talent of an NBA basketball player, but wasn't in the NBA, a "pro". but, your connection between being "pro" and being "good" is right, there are just some people who are "good" who aren't "pros".


now that you mentioned it, is there some tryout, or do the MLG recruiters goto the big tourneys and pick out ppl who they think are "pro" potential? I mean there are certainly ppl who are pro-level and arent signed. and I think that was a perfect reference with basketball.

[Mud Buddha]

IMHO I would not classify STYLE and PATIENCE in the same category.

Well, no. Of course you wouldn't. Patience is classified under style.

Look. Style = The way something is done. The style of a smash player is the way they play. Throw in an adverb in there, and the corresponding adjective has a bearing over the style.

e.g.

1) John plays smash patiently.

2) David plays smash non patiently.

These two people are not playing the game in the same way. We can conclude, therefore, they are not using the same style.

Ergo, patience is a part of style.

[mcc]

I'm sure he'd post again soon. yeah it was a bit late
i was online. i read his post. i decided to stop. please stop assuming things about me.

On the record here: Are you actually saying that if there are two people play Smash, one of which plays very patiently waiting for an opportunity to attack, and one who plays impatiently, charging head on, that there is no difference in their styles?

yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Style is choice of technique, nothing else.
so the times at which the character uses the techniques doesn't count as style because they are still using the same techniques? can you give an example of two characters with different styles? i don't quite understand what you mean.

EDIT: mcc I sincerely suggest you stop posting and learn more before you propose weak, unsubstaniated, or straightforth false statements. You will learn at a faster rate without embarassing yourself to the extent you seem to be aiming at.
the post before it was edited already containted the necessary information. this was not necessary

[Umbreon]

some players camp, some do not. That is style. There are good players that camp, and good players that do not. That's all preference.

There are no impatient players in the top 25. It's not a style characteristic, the styles in the top 25 are all very diversified, but they're all patient players as well.

You cannot associate an independant aspect of an arguement to the arguement without a common ground. The arguement itself is not the common ground.

[StripesOrBars]

I think in the end each character has their own style, that's pretty much it.

[Nocturnis]

Here's the thing though. I can camp and do nothing but tilts and f-airs right? Also I can rush and focus on tilts into f-airs. The style is the same but in one case I am patient. Therefore I can conclude that Pateince and Style are both important but are seperate?

(I'm aware that only tilting into f-airs may be exaggerated but it's an example of a primitive style.)

[StripesOrBars]

(I'm aware that only tilting into f-airs may be exaggerated but it's an example of a primitive style.)

LOL no it's not.

[mcc]

some players camp, some do not. That is style. There are good players that camp, and good players that do not. That's all preference.
but isn't that what Mud said? and you disagreed with him

[Nocturnis]

LOL no it's not.

Your saying that if I ONLY tilted into f-airs you would lose to me? That might be an issue...

[Umbreon]

Here's the thing though. I can camp and do nothing but tilts and f-airs right? Also I can rush and focus on tilts into f-airs. The style is the same but in one case I am patient. Therefore I can conclude that Pateince and Style are both important but are seperate?

(I'm aware that only tilting into f-airs may be exaggerated but it's an example of a primitive style.)

I see your point, but no, because it is possible to camp impatiently. Those players are usually the worst too, having neither sense of offense or defense.

If you camp with ftilts and fairs as you say, but you jump the gun when you think you see an opening, you are both defensive and impatient.

You can also be offensive and patient. Korean DJ is an excellent example of this.

[SwiftBass]

some players camp, some do not. That is style. There are good players that camp, and good players that do not. That's all preference.

There are no impatient players in the top 25. It's not a style characteristic, the styles in the top 25 are all very diversified, but they're all patient players as well.

You cannot associate an independant aspect of an arguement to the arguement without a common ground. The arguement itself is not the common ground.


agreed. Like said b4 patience has nothing to do with style. Its more of a discipline thing. This is why the top 25 are good as they are. And if you are assuming that I would agree with the statement....."impatient SSBM players will never be as good" then ur right. The games nature requires patience(if you wanna be decent that is.).

EDIT: what timing(reference to latter post)

[DA_RAIN]

style is worth a lot in a group of friends if some1 knos ur style they can beat u but patience is above style and beats every style if used correctly given character and counterpick matchups

patience is the reason some matches r impossible like sheik vs bowser is impossible because a patient sheik can always beat bowser by spamming him and making grab opportunities where bowser can still win if sheik doesnt take the time to do this sheik can also use quick lagless attacks to pressure bowser into making mistakes to force the same opportunities u dont have to camp

i kno patience because i play roy u cant have a good roy unless u r very patient and accurate with your hits and style doesnt matter because if u dont make mistakes u can do whatever u want