The 2006-2008 Tier list

[mcc]

he was talking about bair's sex kick, which still isn't very good

[Dodger]

He's not talking about the nair, he's talking about the bair. Which, while not a true sex kick, is still a decent move. And saying bair is horrendous is like saying the knee is horrendous because the knee needs to be sweet spotted to kill. When sweet spotted, the bair kills. (Note: I'm not saying the bair is as powerful as the knee ;-)

The uair is pretty powerful, and I think it should be considered a kill move. but you're not gonna listen to me.

[mcc]

with no DI, kirby's dair cannot kill a c. falcon at 80% at the edge of FD. his uair BARELY kills

i don't think they should count as kill moves

oh and on my last post, i meant bair's sex kick isn't good, not bair isn't good

[Dodger]

Don't you mean bair? Anyway, I see your point, but I think it's unfair to say Kirby (or any char for that matter) doesn't have kill moves. Sure, his aren't as good as other chars, but they're still kill moves. I suppose there's always the hammer XD.

And the whole "he was talkin about bair" think was in response to Lucky Sharmz, not you.

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

It was? Well, I thought you guys were talking about Kirby's N air, but then some of you guys said you were talking about his B air, so i just didn't respond.

[$PITE]

Oh, and I never said that kirby is amazing, he got horribly nerfed from the original and sucks compared to other characters. My original post was just to make clear that Kirby does have something going for him, he does have kill moves and uses for grabs, can combo ect. unlike what Stripesofbars was implying. Since he indeed has something on him, one can't argue with the facts that Kirby's uair is a powerful move and his bair has decent knockback, sex kick and reaches far enough to avoid 60-70% characters shieldgrabs even. Plus other stuff I don't bother repeating here.

She speaks the truth. Uair is a pretty decent kill move and Bair can be chained onto itself, has decent knockback, and pretty good priority. It's also a sex kick, and is Kirby's #1 edgeguard move. And throws, while not immediately chainable into anything, can be used for Kirbycides and at the very least, damage.

I would seriously ignore most of what StripesorBars is saying. Kirby sucks, but he's obviously never played a good Kirby in his life or even seen one, judging by his reply.

[NJ'zFinest]

I don't know Spite...., the things that Stripes says about Kirby is what Omnigamer and Kirbster tell me lol I'll take Omnigamer's and Kirbster's opinion over Vilness's.

And Samochan, the stuff about Finland, Vilness beats people with low tiers because he's simply better than everyone else. It's like how Azen owns with any character, he's simply an amazing pro player and there aren't many people who are of equal skill. Azen won a tourney using only Luigi, Pikachu, and Link...however Azen never said any of these characters are good, he just says they are "fun". You said Vilness the best in Finland in all, so you should assume he can be anyone there using a low tier (especially if he mains a low tier).

[Samochan]

I don't know Spite...., the things that Stripes says about Kirby is what Omnigamer and Kirbster tell me lol I'll take Omnigamer's and Kirbster's opinion over Vilness's.

And Samochan, the stuff about Finland, Vilness beats people with low tiers because he's simply better than everyone else. It's like how Azen owns with any character, he's simply an amazing pro player and there aren't many people who are of equal skill. Azen won a tourney using only Luigi, Pikachu, and Link...however Azen never said any of these characters are good, he just says they are "fun". You said Vilness the best in Finland in all, so you should assume he can be anyone there using a low tier (especially if he mains a low tier).

Uh, Vilness never posted here, I did. >_>;

It's kinda ridiculous to compare Kirby's bair to Falcon's knee, especially when you take DI into account with only the first one since the latter one is one of those moves that are quite tough to Di and still live. Even Sheik's fair doesn't kill anything even on YS if properly DI'ed (smash DI), as demonstrated by EK. Living on YS with over 100% as Mewtwo while gotten hit with sheik's fair is quite good. When not taking DI into account, bair does kill at 100-120% at least, uair wastes people at 80-100%. And what does not outright kill them leads into edgeguard, which is one thing kirby is good at.

NJ, it still doesn't give Stripes rights to mock Finland. The best player here wins with low tiers simply because he's too good, not because other finns suck. So I did not really like Stripes comment. :/

[NJ'zFinest]

Uh, Vilness never posted here, I did. >_>;
I know >_> I never said he did

It's kinda ridiculous to compare Kirby's bair to Falcon's knee, especially when you take DI into account with only the first one since the latter one is one of those moves that are quite tough to Di and still live. Even Sheik's fair doesn't kill anything even on YS if properly DI'ed (smash DI), as demonstrated by EK.[/quote
It's not ridiculous to compare Kirby's bair to Falcon's knee if you're saying that Kirby's bair is an effective KOing move.
Also, Sheik's fair does kill.... even if it's properly DI'ed. You have to take note of the fact that Sheik is weaker in PAL :(
[QUOTE=Samochan;1839820]When not taking DI into account, bair does kill at 100-120% at least, uair wastes people at 80-100%. And what does not outright kill them leads into edgeguard, which is one thing kirby is good at.
Bair and Uair aren't easy at all to land on any experienced player. Also consider the fact that there aren't any effective setups for a Uair.....
Also nowadays, DIing moves to live much longer has become a popular trend...well, at least in the states. :psycho: You must take DIing into account. I've went to random local tournaments where I've had trouble landing repeative Up throw Uairs on "random" Marth players because they would smash DI them.

NJ, it still doesn't give Stripes rights to mock Finland. The best player here wins with low tiers simply because he's too good, not because other finns suck. So I did not really like Stripes comment. :/
Yea, Stripes didn't have to mock Finland :( , but at least we agree on the fact that Vilness is simply better than everyone else there :)

[Samochan]

It's not ridiculous to compare Kirby's bair to Falcon's knee if you're saying that Kirby's bair is an effective KOing move.
Also, Sheik's fair does kill.... even if it's properly DI'ed. You have to take note of the fact that Sheik is weaker in PAL :(

I did say it's decent, for kirby at least. Bairs can be chained and can effectively lead into edgeguard, but by no means bair is near as powerful as falcon's knee, for example. And Sheik's fair wasn't weakened on Pal, only sheik's grab and uair were changed.


Bair and Uair aren't easy at all to land on any experienced player. Also consider the fact that there aren't any effective setups for a Uair.....
Also nowadays, DIing moves to live much longer has become a popular trend...well, at least in the states. :psycho: You must take DIing into account. I've went to random local tournaments where I've had trouble landing repeative Up throw Uairs on "random" Marth players because they would smash DI them.


Kirby's utilt is a good setup for uair and bair. You can wavedash backwards into utilt and depending of the DI, character and %, you can either land a bair or uair on them, mostly full jumped bair that can lead into a falling bair (fence of pain). On fast fallers, utilt into uair at 80% or so is very effective, the stun from the utilt is enough for it. One can also abuse 3/4 of kirby's aerials and their zero lag when L-cancelled so that every time kirby hits with bair/fair/dair one is able to utilt them before they even move from the aerial itself, resulting in another aerial. King Kirby 90 has a good demonstration of this. Uthrow and bthrow can also be used as setups, but they're very DI and % dependant.

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

I know i may sound like a total noob asking this and i am a noob, but can you use Smash DI on any attack?

[NJ'zFinest]

only sheik's grab and uair were changed.
Hmm, even if true, is Sheik's Fair easy to smash DI? Even if it doesn't kill, Sheik has the best edgeguarding game, and Yoshi Story is one of her "rape" stages. She's broken for a reason :psycho:

Kirby's utilt is a good setup for uair and bair. You can wavedash backwards into utilt and depending of the DI, character and %, you can either land a bair or uair on them, mostly full jumped bair that can lead into a falling bair (fence of pain). On fast fallers, utilt into uair at 80% or so is very effective, the stun from the utilt is enough for it. One can also abuse 3/4 of kirby's aerials and their zero lag when L-cancelled so that every time kirby hits with bair/fair/dair one is able to utilt them before they even move from the aerial itself, resulting in another aerial. King Kirby 90 has a good demonstration of this. Uthrow and bthrow can also be used as setups, but they're very DI and % dependant.
lol, Up tilts are hard to land, especially on space animals. Like you said, DI can ruin the setup for and aerial. And about abusing Kirby's aerials....they don't have zero lag (you should take a look at the Frame List). If Kirby hits with a Bair/Fair/Dair, you can DI it, shield after it, jump after it, or roll after it (if you hold shield and the C stick in a certain position while being hit, you'll immediately roll). I know you're a big KK90 fan and all, but other people do that to (Kirbster, Runt, Omni, even myself). It's not something that people do with just Kirby and It all depends on the reaction time of the opponent. For example, I do SHFFL Dair to up tilt with Falco. It's very hard to react after being hit by the Dair, so the up tilt may land.

[Aiser]

I think link counters sheik, because I can four stock my friends sheik with my link so clearly thisis true. If you don't believe me you're a noob.

[$PITE]

Kirby doesn't chain attacks well. One of only Kirby's viable setups, Utilt, is difficult to land. Kirby's Bair and Uair do the job of getting the opponent off the stage. Kirby doesn't kill very well "outright," ie. Kirby needs to edge/airguard well to keep the opponent off the stage. Kirby's throws don't really chain into anything except in peculiar DI circumstances. Kirby has good tilts but relatively ineffective smash attacks. Kirby's specials aren't too useful most of the time, but have some minor uses. Finland isn't as bad as StripesorBars would believe.

^^ summary of facts.

EDIT: Oh, foxandfalco, what StripesOrBars says about Kirby sucking is true. But the Bair is not horrendous, it's one of Kirby's better moves, and Uair does have the ability to kill or at least set you up for one. I doubt Omni and Kirbstir would agree with how he said it, but it is pretty much unanimous that Kirby sucks.

[Samochan]

Kirby doesn't chain attacks well. One of only Kirby's viable setups, Utilt, is difficult to land. Kirby's Bair and Uair do the job of getting the opponent off the stage. Kirby doesn't kill very well "outright," ie. Kirby needs to edge/airguard well to keep the opponent off the stage. Kirby's throws don't really chain into anything except in peculiar DI circumstances. Kirby has good tilts but relatively ineffective smash attacks. Kirby's specials aren't too useful most of the time, but have some minor uses. Finland isn't as bad as StripesorBars would believe.

Nice summary. :3 Though I must add that kirby's foward smash has decent knockback, but it's difficult to land due to it's laggyness. Dmash is good for edgeguarding and usmash is very tough to land because of the sweetspot and lag, though otherwise has decent power. I must say though that I especially like the last sentence. :D

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

I think link counters sheik, because I can four stock my friends sheik with my link so clearly thisis true. If you don't believe me you're a noob.


lol! Good one Aiser!!

[SW_BoD]

^ I'm with you. That is a very moronic thing to say.

But overall. I think that th tier list is fine. 'cept Yoshi, kirby, and Ness.

[Aiser]

Oh **** this is the wrong thread, I ment to post that on the funny things noobs say thread.

**** it!

[controlfreak7]

Crazy discussions. But you know, if this tier list is based off tourney results then you can't really argue you against it, so I don't understand why people are still arguing about it.

However, I think this tierlist would look very similar, if not the same if it was based how good characters are, so with that being said this is what I think:

ICs: should be way lower, there is no way in hell they can be that high, they get raped by numbers of characters, and the reason being is cause once nana is gone, which usually isn't a problem popo is basically screwed. Even then most of the time they get knocked out they are desynched so you have to use forward b to get back to the stage and if you make it back to the stage successfully you are most likely lucky.

Luigi: should be higher, I mean its understandable that there aren't many luigis in tourneys, but when there is they usually do good.

Samus: again not so common of a character, but should be higher, Samus is good in a lot of aspects, one mainly being recovery. Not many problems koing with her, but its usually hard to ko her.


To that one guy that thought he understood smash and never been to a tourney(and mcc was backing him up).

First of all, Fox is being used more and more and it SEEMS like he is winning less and less because not everyone that plays with him is pro. Even it that were an actual fact it would be because the majority of people playing with him are not good so they aren't going to good in tourneys >.>.

Falco's shl is way overrated, its good, but to have that as the only reason for him being so high is stupid. It balances out with his crappy recovery. What makes him so high is his comboing abilities. (which in this case leads falco player's to win tourneys).

Pichu is actually underrated, I see him being light only a little worse than yoshi having no recovery method besides his jumps, or ness and falco's recovery.

his smashes are really good even though they are short ranged and his f-smash can be di out of (edgeguard d-smash is good even though its wall techable, also if you are near the edge, but facing away and you d-smash thats also 'okay'), and his nair is really good for comboing, is u-air is good for juggling falco and fox. His u-smash is pretty good.

And no, I'm not saying he should be any higher on the tier list, but I think people tend to underestimate him way too much.

And no mcc you aren't the smartest person in the world like you think you are.

Edit: The guy I was talking about posted 11 pages ago =P, so ignore that part >.>

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Pichu is actually underrated, I see him being light only a little worse than yoshi having no recovery method besides his jumps, or ness and falco's recovery.


Being light is a very bad thing. It's much worse than having no third jump. In fact, Yoshi still has a chance of getting back on the stage because his weight drastically increases during his double jump, making him nearly invincible.

For Pichu, what's the point of having a good recovery if you can't even use it? Pichu's recovery isn't even that good. Pichu's KO percentage is always 60 to 70, and that is a pretty early death percentage.

[leafgreen386]

Oh **** this is the wrong thread, I ment to post that on the funny things noobs say thread.
Aren't they the same thing?

[cb_marth]

I looked at the tier list and why is Fox and Falco the top two? Marth, Sheik, Puff all of them are just as good if not better then Fox and Falco? If its based on tournaments then thats stupid. Everyone is good with certain characters and everyone plays different with certain characters. Ranking them by who ever plays them is a terrible call.

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Yeah, you're right. It should be based on the characters stats, strategies, weight, falling speed, advantage or disadvantage on certain stages, and special abilities that only that character has (unless he has a clone). Here are a few special abilities. Falco's SHL, Fox's SHDL, Mario's SHFFLed U air combos, Doc's pill rushing, Samus's bomb jump, Mario and Doc can extend the horizontal distance of their Up B, etc.

[NJ'zFinest]

I looked at the tier list and why is Fox and Falco the top two? Marth, Sheik, Puff all of them are just as good if not better then Fox and Falco?
Why did you mention Puff....anyways:
As Mew2king said, Falco, Fox, Sheik, and Marth are all 99% as good as another.

[cb_marth]

Why did you mention Puff....anyways:
As Mew2king said, Falco, Fox, Sheik, and Marth are all 99% as good as another.

Easy,because she is one of the top characters if you know how to use her. Watch Maaku, or the King, both are insane Puff players. It is hard to believe yes but her defensive style into the screamer is insanly good.

[NJ'zFinest]

Easy,because she is one of the top characters if you know how to use her. Watch Maaku, or the King, both are insane Puff players. It is hard to believe yes but her defensive style into the screamer is insanly good.
Puff isn't one of the top characters. I spoken with King and seen his vids, I've also played KillaOR, I am well aware of what Puff can do. However, Puff isn't up to par with Falco, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach, CFalcon, Samus, and Ice Climbers. As any pro or experienced player.

[cb_marth]

Puff isn't one of the top characters. I spoken with King and seen his vids, I've also played KillaOR, I am well aware of what Puff can do. However, Puff isn't up to par with Falco, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach, CFalcon, Samus, and Ice Climbers. As any pro or experienced player.

Well okay I can see where your coming from. Like I said Puff is one of the top if you know how to use her. Falco and Fox have no chance agenst her in FD. If you play a pro Puff they will scream you off every time they grab you. Now Marth, Sheik and the others its a harder match, and I never said that she was more better then any of them now the Ice Climbers? Well I don't know why you said they were better then Puff because they arn't. Yet I can tell your more baseing your info on the character themselves. I think you should look at who is playing the certain character. I seen people use Puff 5 stock someone who used a Marth. I've also seen a Ness player do just as good in a match agenst a Sheik player. So maybe you should focus on who is using them and how they use them for their style. Honestly any character has the potentail of being good and beating any other character. It's just depends on who you like to use and who you have a better chemistry with.

[Marth05]

Being light is a very bad thing. It's much worse than having no third jump. In fact, Yoshi still has a chance of getting back on the stage because his weight drastically increases during his double jump, making him nearly invincible.

For Pichu, what's the point of having a good recovery if you can't even use it? Pichu's recovery isn't even that good. Pichu's KO percentage is always 60 to 70, and that is a pretty early death percentage.

Pichu has one of the greatest and unpredictable recoveries, and he can also KO characters at around 60% and 70%. You obviously haven't fought a good Pichu player.

[cb_marth]

Pichu has one of the greatest and unpredictable recoveries, and he can also KO characters at around 60% and 70%. You obviously haven't fought a good Pichu player.

Yeah a lot of people are under-rating this character. If you play a pro Pichu player you will have your hands full. This is a character that can do some really cool things.

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Pichu has one of the greatest and unpredictable recoveries, and he can also KO characters at around 60% and 70%. You obviously haven't fought a good Pichu player.


With what attack exactly? F smash? You can DI out of it, so you won't be hit by the strong part. U smash? Weaker than Pikachu's and Fox's U smash, so it don't kill at less than 100%.

[mcc]

Well okay I can see where your coming from. Like I said Puff is one of the top if you know how to use her. Falco and Fox have no chance agenst her in FD. If you play a pro Puff they will scream you off every time they grab you. Now Marth, Sheik and the others its a harder match, and I never said that she was more better then any of them now the Ice Climbers? Well I don't know why you said they were better then Puff because they arn't. Yet I can tell your more baseing your info on the character themselves. I think you should look at who is playing the certain character. I seen people use Puff 5 stock someone who used a Marth. I've also seen a Ness player do just as good in a match agenst a Sheik player. So maybe you should focus on who is using them and how they use them for their style. Honestly any character has the potentail of being good and beating any other character. It's just depends on who you like to use and who you have a better chemistry with.

do you have any evidence that jiggs is better than ICs? when a puff grabs a fast faller, she can't rest them every time. they can DI out of resting range, or their damage can be too high. when ICs grab someone, they have the potential to do an inescapable grab combo to every character. and player skill shouldn't be a factor when comparing character potential. the player skill/style may vary, but the character doesn't change. for all you know, the puff player could be 10 times better than the marth player.

[NJ'zFinest]

Well okay I can see where your coming from. Like I said Puff is one of the top if you know how to use her. Falco and Fox have no chance agenst her in FD.
Fox and Falco> Puff on FD as long as you play correctly
If you play a pro Puff they will scream you off every time they grab you.
That's why you space yourself with lasers and DI the throw
Now Marth, Sheik and the others its a harder match, and I never said that she was more better then any of them now the Ice Climbers? Well I don't know why you said they were better then Puff because they arn't.
Ice Climbers have much better matchups than Puff....they can take on pretty much any character. Haven't you seen or played any good IC players? I doubt you have.
Yet I can tell your more baseing your info on the character themselves. I think you should look at who is playing the certain character. I seen people use Puff 5 stock someone who used a Marth. I've also seen a Ness player do just as good in a match agenst a Sheik player. So maybe you should focus on who is using them and how they use them for their style. Honestly any character has the potentail of being good and beating any other character. It's just depends on who you like to use and who you have a better chemistry with.
LOL, why focus on the player? Azen's Pikachu can beat Chillin's Fox, but Fox is the better character and has the advantage in the match up, if I'm not mistaken. Basing it on the player is the worst thing you can do. You said you seen people 5 stock a Marth with Puff, what if the Marth player really sucks.... or if the Puff player is just really good....

Your logic stinks

"I 4 stocked my little sisters Sheik with Link, therefore, Link is very good"

[Marth05]

With what attack exactly? F smash? You can DI out of it, so you won't be hit by the strong part. U smash? Weaker than Pikachu's and Fox's U smash, so it don't kill at less than 100%.

I highly doubt you would DI out of the fsmash everytime, lol you're not Ken. Usmash is a really great move you can just fair into a grab than into a dthrow or uthrow(depending the character you are fighting) and follow their DI into an usmash. Also Pichu's dair is strong and has really good priority, it's a good suicidle technique that will usually KO your opponet(off stage when they are trying to recover).

[cb_marth]

Fox and Falco> Puff on FD as long as you play correctly

That's why you space yourself with lasers and DI the throw

Ice Climbers have much better matchups than Puff....they can take on pretty much any character. Haven't you seen or played any good IC players? I doubt you have.

LOL, why focus on the player? Azen's Pikachu can beat Chillin's Fox, but Fox is the better character and has the advantage in the match up, if I'm not mistaken. Basing it on the player is the worst thing you can do. You said you seen people 5 stock a Marth with Puff, what if the Marth player really sucks.... or if the Puff player is just really good....

Your logic stinks

"I 4 stocked my little sisters Sheik with Link, therefore, Link is very good"

What if both were pro's? Kinnda narrow minded there eh? I haven't played a good IC no but I have seen many. I also have seen a pro Puff and the Puff would win. Why is it the worse thing to focus on the player. Every character can we can't they. Some have advantages yes but that doesn't mean they are better? They have better match-ups? What? I think you should re-think this my friend.

[mcc]

marth counters puff. if they were pros, the puff wouldn't 4 stock him. and you can't watch a not-pro ICs player and then a pro puff player and conclude that puff is better. the point of the tier list is to say which CHARACTER is better, not which player is better. your last few sentences are hard to understand

[cb_marth]

marth counters puff. if they were pros, the puff wouldn't 4 stock him. and you can't watch a not-pro ICs player and then a pro puff player and conclude that puff is better. the point of the tier list is to say which CHARACTER is better, not which player is better. your last few sentences are hard to understand

Well okay I know where your coming from. Basically what I am saying is this: I am saying that Puff is a top tier. Like it or not, now I'm not saying that she is better then Marth or IC, or anyone els. I'm saying that she is a top tier, she can put up a fight agenst anyone. Especially Fox and Falco because of their weight in certain levels. I mean it would be different if I was a Puff player, then all this is simple ignorance, towards other characters. But im not, I am a Marth player, I am just simpley pointing out that Puff is a good character, I mean if you guys give IC a top tier rank then I would say Puff is there to. I mean have you guys forgot that Puff is one of the best off the edge in the game, she floats. Also if you master her KO, well she will knock you off everytime you go near her. That goes for Marth.

Someone asked me why I said Puff was a top tier and I told them, they just felt the need to try and show they know a thing or two about the game which is pointless agenst me, because I could care less if you know more about the game then I do.

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Jigglypuff is too light. People with swords have the upperhand against Jigglypuff cause of power and range.

[cb_marth]

Jigglypuff is too light. People with swords have the upperhand against Jigglypuff cause of power and range.

Oh I agree 100%. Yet if you get a Puff player that has mastered the screamer KO, down then your in trouble because once you powerslash your dead because the KO cancels it and knocks you off the screen.

[Emblem Lord]

Who the h*ll said Marth and IC's are top tier? Marth is high tier. IC's are mid.

wtf?

[cb_marth]

It wasn't me. I personally think that IC is a mid tier as well. Top tier's would be Marth, Falco,Fox, Sheik. Also I think Puff COULD be classifed around there.