View Full Version : The 2006-2008 Tier list
NJzFinest
11-06-2006, 10:45 PM
There is a ton of people who would disagree with the statement that fox vs. sheik is even.
Those people suck. Only have experienced players told me that it's an even matchup.
2. He has good comboability but seriously calling it incredible is way too exaggerated.
....
6. This is to anything said about the shine. Ganon, Peach, Link, CF, DK are the only waveshinable characters/ characters that can be comboed well with the shine. Shinespiking 0% kills is a potential not an advantage. Yah you can 0% shinespike a ******* congrats, its avoidable regardless and usually always happens at high percents. This is because that is the only time a GOOD player will be off the stage.
....
10. neutral air? Abusable and cheap. Sure have your opinion, the best part was you refered to M2K. In this very thread M2K was the one saying fox isn't that great. One of his specific reasons was range. nair is outranged by a bunch of other longer ranged moves.
2. It is incredible...compare it to the 26 other characters in the game. Only Falco, Sheik, and Marth come close.
6. Why is it that when people think shine, they only think of shine combos? Shine is used to control spacing, combo, edge guard, avoid shield grabbing, etc. It can be used very effectively on any given character.
10. How many characters can outspace it effectively? How many players know how to play against effectively? With that one technique.... didn't Mew2king rape numerous players?
Things you said I want to point out:
Fox has his hard matchups and there is a lot of them and I want that to be known.
A lot of hard matchups you say...? Hmmm
There is a lot of characters that he can go even with so why can't those characters take them out.
There's a lot of characters that Falco go even with?....Hmm
Guys....Fox and Falco suck
Emblem Lord
11-07-2006, 12:03 AM
ControlFreak: Answer me this. Are Fox and Falco better then the rest of the cast overall. Excluding the other top 5 characters. In my eyes they are all too good. So answer me.
Look I tire of arguing with you. People in the thread have already positive repped me and supported me in the thread. So I take that to mean I know what I'm talking about.
FYI M2K = best Fox on the planet. He knows fox is a cheap gay *******. When he says Fox suxks he says that in regards to the other top 5 characters. He knows Foxes weaknesses and knows why he is broken. When he says fox sucks he doesnt mean it. He's mostly just talking. Plus he is tired of fox because he mastered him.
Anyway, the game has been out for 5 years already. That's plenty of time to see whop is and isn't good. And this is what we have today wtih the current list. And what inconsistencies with the list do you speak of. The top 5 have always been ranked more or less where there are. They might rise a few spots or drop one or two, but they have always been good.
But if nothing else. Answer my question.
Are Fox and Falco better then the majority of the cast overall? And yes. SHL is cheap. There is no lag, it combos, it can shield stab, screw up recovery, it can be done repeatedly, and it can stuff attacks that come out BEFORE THE ANIMATION OF THE SHL BEGAN.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 01:18 AM
I'm not gonna read the page before this one but I can already see whats going on. Lemme show some data again.
We all know who the 4 best are(Marth Shiek Fox and Falco)(Peach ICs and come close to them, but not close enough).
Sheik=Fox +0
Shiek<Falco -1
Shiek>Marth +0
Sheik= +0
Fox=Shiek +0
Fox<Falco -1
Fox=Marth -1
Fox= -1
Falco=Marth +0
Falco>Shiek +1
Falco>Fox +2
Falco= +2
Marth<Sheik
Marth=Falco
Marth=Fox
Marth= -1
So in conclusion
Falco
Shiek
Fox=Marth
DUH.
However, Falco and Peach are close to even and Fox Shiek and Marth own Peach.
Falco gets owned by climbers as does shiek and fox can go either way. Where as Marth owns them.
So you have
Falco>ICs
Falco=Peach
-1
Fox>Peach
Fox=ICs
+1
Shiek>Peach
Shiek<ICs
+0
Marth>Peach
Marth>ICs
+2
so these things can also be a factor.
So if u use those factors it becomes
Falco +1
Marth +1
Shiek +0
Fox +0
But IMO the top 4 against eachother is all that really matters.
controlfreak7
11-07-2006, 02:43 AM
Those people suck. Only have experienced players told me that it's an even matchup.
2. It is incredible...compare it to the 26 other characters in the game. Only Falco, Sheik, and Marth come close.
6. Why is it that when people think shine, they only think of shine combos? Shine is used to control spacing, combo, edge guard, avoid shield grabbing, etc. It can be used very effectively on any given character.
10. How many characters can outspace it effectively? How many players know how to play against effectively? With that one technique.... didn't Mew2king rape numerous players?
Things you said I want to point out:
A lot of hard matchups you say...? Hmmm
There's a lot of characters that Falco go even with?....Hmm
Guys....Fox and Falco suck
Meh, I wish I looked at the minor details of my post more carefully so that I don't have people constantly breathin down my back.
Fox's combos are about 2-3 hits on average, what makes them so good is how critical they are. This is why it isn't incredible, but definitely good. Shine has its uses, but uses such as the ones you point it out don't occur as primary points in battle. The point is you are trying to kill your opponent and you do that by primarily combos with fox typically based around the shine. Controlling spacing, and avoiding shield grabbing are things I didn't mention. However is it really ever used to avoid shield grabbing intentionally? I have yet to see that the nair is cheap, but as far as I know every character that has a good amount of range (good being greater than fox's). I didn't mention M2K gets raped by people who know how to deal with it I said that he mentioned there are numerous characters that outrange fox.
let me reword what I said: Fox doesn't have a lot of hard match ups, but when you are versing someone that knows how to use their character against fox its a pretty hard match, its not like the fox is having the easiest ****ing time in the world while the other person is working their *** off trying to play against him. He can get comboed horribly by characters regardless of tiers. Fox can get comboed by characters he himself should do well against.
About falco: Generally speaking, Falco goes even with everyone in upper, and (w/e is below upper). He does really well against fox, cf, sheik, and goes about even with everyone else. Even meaning its not harder or easier for either character.
Lastly I'm not trying to prove that fox and falco suck just that they are overated because of their position on the tierlist because of how well they do in tourneys as a result of their popularity. Eventually you are going to find a good enough falco or fox player that is better than you in a tourney and the final round will generally consist of fox and falco players, because all the people that played other characters eventually lost to a fox/falco that was better than them.
If Brawl was delayed a year or two, I'm sure opinions of fox and falco would eventually change drastically.
ControlFreak: Answer me this. Are Fox and Falco better then the rest of the cast overall. Excluding the other top 5 characters. In my eyes they are all too good. So answer me.
Look I tire of arguing with you. People in the thread have already positive repped me and supported me in the thread. So I take that to mean I know what I'm talking about.
FYI M2K = best Fox on the planet. He knows fox is a cheap gay *******. When he says Fox suxks he says that in regards to the other top 5 characters. He knows Foxes weaknesses and knows why he is broken. When he says fox sucks he doesnt mean it. He's mostly just talking. Plus he is tired of fox because he mastered him.
Anyway, the game has been out for 5 years already. That's plenty of time to see whop is and isn't good. And this is what we have today wtih the current list. And what inconsistencies with the list do you speak of. The top 5 have always been ranked more or less where there are. They might rise a few spots or drop one or two, but they have always been good.
But if nothing else. Answer my question.
Are Fox and Falco better then the majority of the cast overall? And yes. SHL is cheap. There is no lag, it combos, it can shield stab, screw up recovery, it can be done repeatedly, and it can stuff attacks that come out BEFORE THE ANIMATION OF THE SHL BEGAN.
Fox and Falco are great characters and are amongst greatest of the cast when played to the fullest, but that is only to the best of our knowledge at this point. This is my point, the tier list conveys who is doing the best tourney wise. What is that exactly supposed to imply? How good the character is. The only way to prove that fox and falco are really as good/broken as you claim they are is to have the fox/falco community narrow down to the same amount as the upper tiers and the tier below upper (forget whats its called =/)
You take it that you know what you talk about and that is in the eyes of those that agree fox and falco are broken for the same reasons you do. The tier list is a ****ing popularity contests which misleads people to believe fox and falco are too good for their own good. And that doesn't ****ing mean they suck it just means they are treated as greater than they actually are. Those people would have disagreed with me if you hadn't posted, you didn't change anyone's opinion by your statements.
Let me add I know that M2k is the best fox in the world which is even more fitting as to the fact that he thinks fox isn't so great as people portray him to be. So if M2K says that in regards to the other top 5 characters, does that make those 5 characters also broken and imply that he should be lower than them? The point being Fox has ****ing weaknesses and instead of abusing them ppl *****. If he was so broken he wouldn't have a hard time taking out the rest of the cast, but he does and in some cases he can get ****ing raped. By your statements it seems you know M2K really well. So he waists his time making posts against fox and thinks fox is broken while pointing out his weaknesses. If he was just bull****ting wouldn't that just be spamming the thread then?
Anyway, the game has been out for 5 years already. That's plenty of time to see whop is and isn't good.
I wonder if the low tier players that say there is more to be discovered (using examples such as moonwalking) would agree with this. Why couldn't we say the same statement when 'this game has been out for 4 years already.' Is the number 5 supposed to imply something more?
about shl: O yah? well yoshi can get people to 60+% with his dair, it must be cheap. Samus can shoot 2 missles in a row with missle cancel that must be cheap too especially because they can be used to ko and have greater knockback than shl. Luigi's wavedash is cheap because it covers so much distance and gives him really good combability. Pikachu's down b is cheap cause when time correctly people will get hit by it in every area they try to recover.
Shl is simply put annoying and again instead of dealing with what makes Falco, falco he is automatically cheap.
This is insulting to me because learning how to use fox wasn't that easy for me and to say that I'm using a cheap and broken character makes me feel as if my work is bull****.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 05:00 AM
Fox is over rated by 2 tier spots.
Falco is under rated by 1 tier spot.
And how can u not think Fox and Falco aren't broken?!
Fox and falco are two of the best in the game (In my opinion only marth beaths them) but these last few post are making them out to be the end all characters of the game.
They do have weaknesses, weight, lack of range, uninspired recoveries. Yeah they easily make up for them with their speed and power, but saying they aren't thier because the two are on the top of the tier list is silly.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 05:33 AM
Fox and Falco's weight isn't really a problem unless they're off the stage.
Thier weight combined with their fastfallingness even helps them survive vertical kills sometimes(+DI).
Samochan
11-07-2006, 08:05 AM
[QUOTE=controlfreak7;1870890
1. tech the shine
2. crouch cancel the shine
3. crouch cancel the f-tilt (at that percent crouch cancelling the f-tilt would have kept him from getting knockedback, I believe)
4. phantasm was the safest recovery he could have made if he had time to.
5. the fox player got him with the shine mainly because he was in the precise area the fox player wanted him to be, so he could have di back from the f-tilt.
[/QUOTE]
1. Perhaps, but there was a very small marging for it, plus he got hit by the nair. And if he were to tech it, he would have teched in place (fox would have grabbed), to the ledge (a very bad place to be at the moment, techchase->shine/grab) or into Fox (get nailed by another shine).
2. You cannot cc anything when you've just stumbled and fox jabs you and resets you, which automaticly makes you to do the wakeup animation (no wakeup attack). :/ The thunders combo negates any counterattacks from Falco after the shine has hit, since it's possible to just wavedash out of it and jab the falco. Heck, I do reseting sometimes with Peach and her dsmash; they get hit by one dsmash, stumble in front of me, I slap them to reset them and dsmash them again. I even did that when my friend was behind me once.
3. He couldn't cc it again since he was still in the wakeup animation. And cc would have just gotten him off stage anyway and he would have dropped lower.
4. He was too low to phantasm to the ledge, as I said in my earlier post. So he either had to use his jump (in which he got shinespiked) or firebird to get back stage (would have gotten shinespiked as well)
5. Yes, because the Fox player comboed him there and there was little the Falco player could have done to avoid it. Thunders combo really works, Fox is able to do anything he wants to Falco after the jab. :/
The thunders combo works only at 0-30% or so and the combo started from 0%. and Imo, 40-50% is still quite low or medium damage and it was all part of the shine combo.
Emblem Lord
11-07-2006, 10:28 AM
Controlfreak: The debate ended the moment you agreed that fox and falco are the best over all. Discussion over.
As for the SHL, well, if you don't think it's cheap then you don't play awesome Falcos or you are just being silly. Sorry, but I used to train with Zanguzen, so I know all about Falco being gay.
You feel insulted because people say your character is cheap? So now we get to what this is really about. You don't want people invalidating all the work you put into mastering your character. Look no one said Fox is easy to master. Quite the contrary. He is hard as hell to master. I have the upmost respect for people who train hard with him and become good with him.
But regardless of how much work you put in to him, he is still one of the best. Sorry, but it's the truth, Yeah, ok maybe he is overrated, but that's just because he is really good. The character that you main is one of the best and can do some really cheap things. Cheap by definition meaning something done with minimal effort, but yields great results.
Even if Fox went down on the list do you think he would ever be lower then high? Sorry, but he will always be in the top 5.
Please learn to live with it.
<3: I never said they had weaknesses. Of course they have them. But thier strenghts make up for thier weaknesses more so then the other characters. Well, more so excluding the 3 other top 5.
Why all this talk of fox anyway? Falco should be number one IMO. He's too **** good.
Naota-Kun
11-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Even gods have weaknesses. Why not Top Tiers? Fox and Falco do have weaknesses but they are still considered best because of how pratical they are to win a battle quick and aggressively. Besides, their weaknesses are some of the least exploitable if you play and DI right.
Emblem Lord
11-07-2006, 02:07 PM
Fooly Cooly FTW
Fox and Falco's weight isn't really a problem unless they're off the stage.
Thier weight combined with their fastfallingness even helps them survive vertical kills sometimes(+DI).
I don't know anyone who tries to kill fox and falco off the top of stage. You as the opponet exploit there weaknesses not try to play into thier strengths.
<3: I never said they had weaknesses.
Probablly why I was talking to you.
Naota: No mater how good you can DI, if your recovery is easy to edge gaurd, your recovery is easy to edge gaurd. DI won't help you not get hit or magically give you more range.
I'm not trying to play the role of "everyone and thing is equal man" but I'm saying admit thier weakness and leave it at that. What a lot of you guys are trying to do now is tell me why there weakness don't really exist.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 05:28 PM
I don't know anyone who tries to kill fox and falco off the top of stage. You as the opponet exploit there weaknesses not try to play into thier strengths.
If you play Fox then you kill vertically(up).
If you play Fox against another space animal, you're still going to kill up(of course you still have your horizontal kill options, but upsmash and upthrow to upariels is your main weapon).
Falco weighs a little more or a little less than mew2(I think he weighs a tad less than mew2).
Mew2 dies from upsmash(Foxs) around 70%.
Falco doesn't die from Upsmash til 100% or over.
cb_marth
11-07-2006, 06:48 PM
Fox and falco are two of the best in the game (In my opinion only marth beaths them) but these last few post are making them out to be the end all characters of the game.
They do have weaknesses, weight, lack of range, uninspired recoveries. Yeah they easily make up for them with their speed and power, but saying they aren't thier because the two are on the top of the tier list is silly.
I agree...Fox and Falco are both top tier's for sure. Every character has a weakness thats what makes the game fun. Although is that right did I see someone say Fox=Marth:ohwell: I highly doubt it. Maybe Falco=Marth but I'm pretty sure Marth is better then Fox. Maybe not maybe I'm nuts:ohwell: ?
controlfreak7
11-07-2006, 08:17 PM
Controlfreak: The debate ended the moment you agreed that fox and falco are the best over all. Discussion over.
As for the SHL, well, if you don't think it's cheap then you don't play awesome Falcos or you are just being silly. Sorry, but I used to train with Zanguzen, so I know all about Falco being gay.
You feel insulted because people say your character is cheap? So now we get to what this is really about. You don't want people invalidating all the work you put into mastering your character. Look no one said Fox is easy to master. Quite the contrary. He is hard as hell to master. I have the upmost respect for people who train hard with him and become good with him.
But regardless of how much work you put in to him, he is still one of the best. Sorry, but it's the truth, Yeah, ok maybe he is overrated, but that's just because he is really good. The character that you main is one of the best and can do some really cheap things. Cheap by definition meaning something done with minimal effort, but yields great results.
Even if Fox went down on the list do you think he would ever be lower then high? Sorry, but he will always be in the top 5.
Please learn to live with it.
<3: I never said they had weaknesses. Of course they have them. But thier strenghts make up for thier weaknesses more so then the other characters. Well, more so excluding the 3 other top 5.
Why all this talk of fox anyway? Falco should be number one IMO. He's too **** good.
Ok look, you told me I haven't vsed a good falco, so that means that the falco has to be good to use it good enough for you to call it cheap, therefore all the more reason it isn't cheap. BTW I vsed and got 3 stocked by SOS's falco in a friendlies, you might not know him, but he is good imo (17th at OC2).
No I don't feel insulted my character is cheap, I feel insulted people CALL him cheap, because I don't believe in cheapness. Then ppl make posts like yours, o well he is 'quite hard to master/use,' it sounds contradictory. I believe cheap is anything that a player of any level can abuse to the fullest. (peach's d-smash when someone di/cc down). But that is what cheap would be if I believed in it (or what I would call cheap because I'd get owned by it).
I know fox is one of the best, never said he wasn't, but him being the best doesn't mean he doesn't have his sometimes very crucial disadvantages, people say a bunch of things about fox's advantages as if the disadvantages don't exist, the do. Also this is what leads people to think he is cheap cause he is one of the best. I don't believe them to be cheap, especially because those defined as cheap are also defined as hard. Its how you are supposed to use fox, thats what makes him fox, that shouldn't make them cheap.
The thing that you don't seem to understand is not everyone looks at the tier list for what it was meant to show. So people automatically assume fox rapes every single character in the game without a problem, and that also leads to more people maining him. Fox would be looked at for what he is truly worth if he was even a few spots lower on the tiers.
What do you want me to learn to live with? The fact people think he is cheap? Ok look I have no problem saying he is cheap, its just that its sounds more than actually is (because of what you pointed out) more degrading than it is. It isn't and shouldn't be degrading at all, cheap is just a statement. But if cheapness is acheived through hard work it sure won't change the fact that its cheap, but it kind renders how hard it is meaningless.
Meh, I don't care anymore people can say what they want. I'm not going to argue with it.
To what you said about <3. It was the fact that you didn't mention that they had weaknesses that troubled to him. Other than that fox and falco's weaknesses are pretty good weaknesses.
And how can u not think Fox and Falco aren't broken?!
This was a double negative, so I'm not sure what you are saying.
You can either be saying how can u not think fox and falco are broken.
Or you can be saying fox and falco are not broken.
leafgreen386
11-07-2006, 09:12 PM
lol cheapness
Funny thing is I'm having an argument about this with someone on another board (except about snaking in mkds). I'll just quote my opinion on cheapness from there (I'll only take the section I used ssbm as an example, though... it's all that's relevent, anyway).
I firmly stand by the opinion that nothing in any game is cheap. If it's unfair, it gets banned. "Cheap" is just a word used as a john for a person's own inability to counter something, that is in fact, counterable. In smash, anything is counterable. To avoid a chain throw, use mindgames and tech skill to not get grabbed (granted, easier said than done, but still, you'll notice pros rarely get grabbed by non-pros, and even other pros, meaning if you're good enough it's very much possible to "not get grabbed"), and... if you do get grabbed, DI the throws to try to fake out your opponent into going the wrong way, then tech and make your way to safety. To get out of pretty much any combo, use good DI and tech when you hit the ground. If you want to get a hit in, but don't want to get hit in return, use good spacing (aka tech skill), and fake your opponent into messing up and lagging (aka mindgames). In smash, everything is counterable by tech skill and mindgames. Whoever wins truly is the better player.
[I went on to explain how snaking only requires tech skill and no mindgames, making it even easier to counter than most things in smash, blah blah blah you probably don't care]
In other words, I'm not on anybody's side with this. I know the top tiers are undoubtfully better than the rest of the cast, but they have their weaknesses, and they're only cheap if you make them that way.
pikachun00b7
11-07-2006, 09:16 PM
Link is in the same tier as pikachu? I thought link atleast get a middle tier.
look at the placings, not the categories
NJzFinest
11-07-2006, 09:44 PM
Link is in the same tier as pikachu? I thought link atleast get a middle tier.
look at the placings, not the categories
mcc brings up a good point. Link is in the same spot in both tier lists.
Marth05
11-07-2006, 10:24 PM
I'm starting to think Kirby should be moved under Pichu or Mewtwo, now that I realized it I don't anything from him that's good other than his ok-recovery.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 10:47 PM
Kirby is the best...
....oh wait this is Melee, nvm.
Emblem Lord
11-07-2006, 11:03 PM
Controlfreak: I know you're not a noob, so you should know what is implied by the tier list. A ranking of characters overall. Not a holy bible of smash that says who can beat who. Sorry if it seems like I'm arguing with you. It's just more frustrating to see a smart poster say these kinds of things then it is to hear from some ignorant newbie.
Well, we agreed on my main point. Fox and Falco are basically the best overall despite thier weaknesses.
<3: I meant to say " I never said they didn't have weaknesses" A little misunderstanding to say the least. I know they both have weaknesses.
Certain weaknesses are just more of a disadvantage then others. The star fox duo have far less crippling weaknesses then a low tier character.
And back onto the subject of cheapness. Well, the minimal effort to achieve great results is general definition. It often takes months to fuylly master all the technical aspects of Fox and Falco's game. But once this is done, they are on a level of unfairness that many of the other characters can't compete with. I say cheap or unfair because most of the other characters simply lack the tools in thier arsenal to properly deal with the abilitites that Fox and Falco possess.
StripesOrBars
11-07-2006, 11:17 PM
Falco is easy to play.
Fox is not.
(valid point)
Lucky_Sharmz19
11-07-2006, 11:26 PM
He's right. In about less than a minute, I was able to do a huge combo with Falco consisting of SHLs, aerials, pillars, and Shining.
StripesOrBars
11-08-2006, 08:58 AM
I don't know if he's that easy but....
I think you're thinkin of Shieksies.
highandmightyjoe
11-08-2006, 11:38 AM
I agree that placement is more important than category. That is why I love Link being where he is. It makes him dominant in low tier tournaments, and causes people to greatly underestimate him in larger tournaments. I main Ganon and second with Link. So when I pick Ganon people have a decent amount of respect for him, then in the next match I might swith to Link which is responded to with scoofs. He is only one place lower, but people tend to forget that just because he is in a lower category.
StripesOrBars
11-08-2006, 01:06 PM
Gannon being bottom of his tier is a fluke.
Just like Fox being top.
(owned)
Lucky_Sharmz19
11-10-2006, 08:09 PM
Did anybody say anything about why Jigglypuff is between Mario and Doc in the tierlist?
1048576
12-04-2006, 12:34 AM
I agree completely with this list except for the placement of Mewtwo below Pichu, but that's probably just because my group of friends and I aren't skilled enough to use Pichu without leaving themselves open. Good Job with this list BRoomer's
*Knows he is not worthy
linkmastersword
12-04-2006, 01:12 AM
Gannon being bottom of his tier is a fluke.
Just like Fox being top.
(owned)
how is it a fluke that he is bottom of his tier? I straight up didn't get what you were trying to say.
Shmooguy
12-04-2006, 01:19 AM
can this get added to the offical everything list? I dont see why the official tier list isnt stickied.
ness and pikachu should go up :p
ToP CaT
12-04-2006, 11:39 AM
wow this thread will never die....
Elemennopee
12-04-2006, 04:19 PM
Why would we let it die? It will stop tier topics from arising.
Titanium Dragon
12-04-2006, 05:09 PM
Why would we let it die? It will stop tier topics from arising.
Instead we just argue in this thread! :laugh:
TRUE!
12-04-2006, 05:42 PM
hmm....i'm pretty new but i realize but i don use anyone that's high in the teirs....maybe i should
Kuriko
12-04-2006, 06:26 PM
Don't use a high tier character just for the sake of doing so. You won't get anywhere with that.
linkmastersword
12-04-2006, 06:33 PM
Don't use a high tier character just for the sake of doing so. You won't get anywhere with that.
I think you may mean TOP tier character
you can definately use a high tier character (shiek marth peach) and it will get you somewhere, it will get you some where real quick. Top tiers may be better but it takes time to get good with them. high tier, you could master very effective techniques shockingly quick. DISTURBINGLY QUICK.
I think yoshi should be higher, along with C.F. and definatley G&W... i mean if you know how to use G&W hes really hard to beat... and the marios should be a tad lower
Elemennopee
12-04-2006, 09:26 PM
GaW is too light, not a lot of KO moves, weak, his shield is VERY easy to shield stab, his attacks are slow, his roll is very slow, and his dodge is slow.
Yoshi's recovery is enough to say that he is fine where he is.
Captain Falcon is very easy to combo and edgeguard.
The Marios are fine where they are.
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