The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Emblem Lord]

If they want to nerf Marth just make him like Roy. And nerfing is actually pretty easy.

Increase knockback on moves to limit comboability.

Decrease knockback on kill moves to decrease killing power.

Give more lag to aerials that are abused.

Reduce grab range. Mess around with the properties of the more broken moves i.e the shine, needle cancelling, etc. Or you could just get rid of them altogether.

See? Easy. And these alot more then that. Those are just the key points.

[Smooth_One]

I wouldn't think it would be that hard to nerf someone. Besides basically keeping the same moveset they can do anything they want. Improve/decrease traction, weight, lagtime, fall speed, priority, % dealt, knockback, hitbox sizes, throws' trajectories...Everything.
Moving Kirby from top to bottom is proof enough of that.

[StripesOrBars]

I don't believe in a tier list.

If you're good with that character, you're good with that character.

The japanese players pick their favorite characters and get good with them, why can't other people do the same.

I've seen plenty of "low tier" characters utterly rape "High Tier" ones.

honestly, I think the tier list itself is an excuse.

but, just my opinion.

It's this logic that shows the ignorance of the low level smash community.

This is also how you can tell if someone has played in a tourney or not.

It's pretty easy to figure out whos good and who sucks in this game.

To deny it is just stupid.

Edit: And please tell me what "low tiered" characters win tournies in Japan.

Hmmmm. . . I can't think of a single good player in Japan who uses a low tiered character and does well in tourney.

The only logical reason lower tiers CAN(not saying they do) place a bit higher(like 2nd to last instead of dead last) is because the Japs only use 2 stages, FD and DL64, which are the only 2 non broken stages for lower tiers, and characters like Falco and Falcon own lower tiers hardcore on both stages.

[K.C. Cloud]

It's this logic that shows the ignorance of the low level smash community.

It's pretty easy to figure out whos good and who sucks in this game.

To deny it is just stupid.

No it just shows the arrogance and excuse happy nation that we like to call America.

I could say you probably would never beat me in a match but who know you may kick my *** with some random low tier character people like you who are stupid enough to say "To deny this is stupid" need to reevaluate how you play and not just "I lost cause I use low tier characters" but dwell deeper into the capabilities of that character. If you like to use that character and own house then go own house with a complete and total understanding of that character.

Maybe people just don't play smart enough to beat other people.

If you know how to play then you know how to play, bottom line. You don't loose cause you suck, you lost cause you don't know how to beat the guy bigger and badder than you.

[Emblem Lord]

Relax K.C. Not all people are born equal. Some people are just smarter, or stronger, prettier, etc. Same thing with fighting games. Some characters are just better then others. The tier list is just an acknowledgement of that fact.

Stripes, you should relax too.

K.C you sound anti-tier. That's cool and all, but your last post made it seem like people who are pro-tier will just make up excuses as to why they lose. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you think about tiers and those that support them. Just some food for thought.

Stripes, try to avoid getting into another bull**** argument please.

[K.C. Cloud]

Relax K.C. Not all people are born equal. Some people are just smarter, or stronger, prettier, etc. Same thing with fighting games. Some characters are just better then others. The tier list is just an acknowledgement of that fact.

Stripes, you should relax too.

K.C you sound anti-tier. That's cool and all, but your last post made it seem like people who are pro-tier will just make up excuses as to why they lose. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you think about tiers and those that support them. Just some food for thought.

Stripes, try to avoid getting into another bull**** argument please.

The reason I am anti-tier is simply this, there are people who can take they're "low tier" and beat or destroy your "High tier" simply because they know the "ins" and "outs" of that character AND they play smarter than the opponent.

Same thing goes for most other cases, you don't loose to someone else because you suck, you loose because of.

A. Experience
B. Less than applicable fighting
C. You don't know what you're doing as well as the other guy

and other various reasons, not just because you use a character that doesn't perform well because he wasn't as well studied as a top tier character.

I'm not trying to sound like an *** though. You get better by work and understanding, most people don't know how to work a "low" tier character as well as they would a "High" tier character.

Stripes however had it coming.

[Emblem Lord]

That's all well and good. But don't judge those that are pro-tier. Everyone knows that Skill > Tiers. All we are saying is that Top tier + Good skill > Low tier + Good skill.

On a side note I find it interesting that your sig says you main Falco, but you are anti-tier.

[K.C. Cloud]

That's all well and good. But don't judge those that are pro-tier. Everyone knows that Skill > Tiers. All we are saying is that Top tier + Good skill > Low tier + Good skill.

On a side note I find it interesting that your sig says you main Falco, but you are anti-tier.

Good notice, but the reason I use falco is this, I personally like using falco, been into him since I started the game.

I use fox, he's similar to falco (somewhat)

Marth to practice spacing. Though I'm not that great with the guy.

Captain falcon cause I love kneeing people in the face It's to much fun..

I really only use Falco for competition. I use other characters outside of these as well because they are fun to play with, and beating people with "low" tier characters and seeing their expression is fun.

[ToP CaT]

yep cf and mario are the funnest to play hands down, and dont flame me for it being an opinion you losers, im aware of that

[K.C. Cloud]

yep cf and mario are the funnest to play hands down, and dont flame me for it being an opinion you losers, im aware of that

Well, my most fun to play with Character is Falco, Falcon is my second most fun character.

Fox and Marth I usually don't have that much fun playing with so I don't use them often, except dittos, I love dittos.

I like Mario too, his forward air is to fun to chain together, I also like using yoshi and watching Fumi's yoshi, I have a good laugh at the ownage.

The reason I'm against Tier is because people should use who they like, understand fully what that character can do. In the hands of a cunning individual it's either mans game.

I used to main fox, but I always had more fun playing with falco than fox, so i switched.

[mood4food77]

in japan, only fumi is the decent low tier player over there i hear, and he's up there, not up with masashi or anyone else

why is it that america beats japan and europe pretty badly, because we're better, and we rely more on the character potential than they do skill (yea we're more skilled, but every pro uses at least one character ranked marth or higher as their main or back-up), over there, they only use one character the most part, europe has captain jack who can handle us but i don't think europe has as many players like him, which like japan, rely more on skill than character potential than us

what i mean by cahracter potential is what characters are good in tournaments in our country (why probably our tier list is a bit more accurate than theirs is too)

i have nothing against people from other countries, i would like to play them myself, but after hearing results from like world tournaments and stuff, it's usually like america takes 3 or 4 of the top 5 places usually (maybe not that extreme but you get the point)


on topic, kirby is moving down...known fact

[Smooth_One]

And when you say that is a fact, do you mean it's a FACT, fact, or just a emphasizer fact? =P

And yes, Falcon is fun to play as.

[StripesOrBars]

The tier list is made assuming BOTH PLAYER ARE OF EQUAL SKILL.

IF a Shiek plays a Bowser, of course the most likely outcome will be Shiek as the victor, seeing as how she has waaaaaaaaaay more strength in this match.

Even if the Bowser does win, Shiek is still the better character.

A low tier character can beat a higher tier character(unless its Kirby), but at the end of the match, the higher tiers are still better.

Edit: Yes Falconand Mario are the funnest. Especially 4 man Falcon and Mario matches.

[Aesir]

Okay who's posting on doodahs account? seriously that this has to be the first post I've seen of him not belittle someone, I think I'm going to faint.

[pirkid]

Why does everyone think Kirbs should be bottom?

Death to Marth and Shiek, but in equal skill skill Kirby can hold against alot of the other characters. Easy wavedash, excellent air game and egde-tech.

Just cause not many people use him, and the ones who do usually suck, doesn't mean he should be BOTTOM.

(KirbyKing is my idol.)

[Smooth_One]

Not again.
Read the last couple pages pirkid. You'll find plenty of reason for Kirby to be at the bottom.

I'm not sure why but Pika is fun to play as also. Her nair always makes me chuckle. >_>'

[mood4food77]

kirby has no positive match-ups at all, he goes only even with himself and mewtwo, everyone has an advantage

yea, i find falcon to be the most fun, but nothing beats a jiggly ffa, come on, especially with people who know how to rest, it's probably the greatest match ever

[NightHawk87]

I don't see why people still say they don't believe in tier lists or that tiers don't matter.
Sure a more experienced player can defeat a less experienced one with a lower tier character, and sometimes people can just be naturally better with a lower tier character than a higher one, but there's no sense in claiming that certain characters don't have more advantages than others.

[the_air_up_there7]

C'mon mew2 is at that bottom? Oh well and falco is at the top alot of ppl use the top tier characters, thats why i decided to use more characters.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/falcouser.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/foxuser2ch6.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/ganondorfuser2ws3.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/peachuser.png

[phish-it]

If they want to nerf Marth just make him like Roy. And nerfing is actually pretty easy.

Increase knockback on moves to limit comboability.

Decrease knockback on kill moves to decrease killing power.

Give more lag to aerials that are abused.

Reduce grab range. Mess around with the properties of the more broken moves i.e the shine, needle cancelling, etc. Or you could just get rid of them altogether.

See? Easy. And these alot more then that. Those are just the key points.


Sometimes when I have nothing better to do, I think of ways to make the characters more balanced.

Fox for example:

Make the shine cancellable on frame 4 instead of 2

Weaken upsmash

Weaken Up-air

Give n-air a smaller hitbox (less priority)

Give b-air a smaller hitbox (less priority)

give up-tilt more moderate knockback (making it harder to combo with and kill)

etc.

[kidprecision]

C'mon mew2 is at that bottom? Oh well and falco is at the top alot of ppl use the top tier characters, thats why i decided to use more characters.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/falcouser.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/foxuser2ch6.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/ganondorfuser2ws3.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/gilrod7/peachuser.png

lol i think all your characters deserve top tier. they all own hard.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yay,Marth is still in a good spot,but shiek is still top of high tier.

It's ironic because Marths don't do that well against shieks,everytime i try to DI the D-throw and tech i get chased and grabed or D-smashed.You can't tech away/towards a shiek well.

Even if you do DI(odds are you won't) far enough and tech away they can always charge needles(Trying to just run at a shiek is stupid,and her F-tilts come out quick and have good range) ,and F-tilts at lower percentages are like free grabs.

When i'm at the edge i get B-throwed then when i attempt to recover,shieks run of the egde and Bair(or even Fair) edge gaurd.

Is DI even a priority against a shiek? I hate them!! >_<

[Emblem Lord]

Stop DIing the d-throw. Just jump and don't DI. You will still take a hit from her aerial of choice. But its better then getting chain grabbed.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Stop DIing the d-throw. Just jump and don't DI. You will still take a hit from her aerial of choice. But its better then getting chain grabbed.

Thanks for the advice,i've been having trouble with shieks recently...the only avantage i practically have against a shike is range.

[Emblem Lord]

Shieks needles > Marth's range. Plus she can space more effectively with her f-tilts. Meaning she can throw them out in succesion while he is shielding them and Marth can't attack her.

So Marth's range is almost completely negated.

[takieddine]

Not if the marth is the dominator in the match, it is then that shiek can't really attack...she has no solid approach forward in the air... ftilt is only good on the ground remember, the marth can always jump out of shield and fair...

[KevinM]

Not if the marth is the dominator in the match, it is then that shiek can't really attack...she has no solid approach forward in the air... ftilt is only good on the ground remember, the marth can always jump out of shield and fair...

The problem is a good Sheik player won't let marth start an aggro game or an aggro control game. Sheik is going to be the aggressor that match with her f-tilts.. she will needle spam and chain grab all she/he can to get them.

I guess you can counter with A good marth player wouldn't let that happen but besides Ken i havn't seen to many Marths not get dominated by a good sheik player

[h1roshi]

Shieks needles > Marth's range. Plus she can space more effectively with her f-tilts. Meaning she can throw them out in succesion while he is shielding them and Marth can't attack her.

So Marth's range is almost completely negated.

oh really?!...soif u space it right there is apoint where sheik can throw out a ftilt and not get grabbed afterwards...cuz i do very well against marths and all...but one thing dat frusttrates me a lot is dat i like to ftilt a bit too much and i get grabbed afterwards since they sheild...but if i can time it right and not get grabbed...that would be awesome...although they should be able to shuffle a fair ot of the shield...hmm...lately i have been using dtilt a lot...it sets them up perfectly for aerilas too...and it is a pseudo-preotection from being grabbed...trust me...it works....peace

-hiroshi
uber-worst fl smasher

[h1roshi]

Shieks needles > Marth's range. Plus she can space more effectively with her f-tilts. Meaning she can throw them out in succesion while he is shielding them and Marth can't attack her.

So Marth's range is almost completely negated.

oh really?!...soif u space it right there is apoint where sheik can throw out a ftilt and not get grabbed afterwards...cuz i do very well against marths and all...but one thing dat frusttrates me a lot is dat i like to ftilt a bit too much and i get grabbed afterwards since they sheild...but if i can time it right and not get grabbed...that would be awesome...although they should be able to shuffle a fair ot of the shield...hmm...lately i have been using dtilt a lot...it sets them up perfectly for aerilas too...and it is a pseudo-preotection from being grabbed...trust me...it works....peace

700th post...woot woot...booyahz...yayuhz....XD....

-hiroshi
uber-worst fl smasher

[AkaGoodguy]

im sorry, but i dont think ganon and CF should be in the same class, i think ganon is ok at bottom of middle, but CF should be bottom of high, up there with sheik marth and peach.
maybe its just me, but i think CF should be put in high rather than middle. if some one gets used to him, he owns pretty hard, ganon too, but come on... both in the same class tier? if you disagree, sorry for waisting time, but those are my thoughts on it.

[pdk]

everyone in high tier can play cat-and-mouse with both of them for ages if need be; hence, mid tier for CF

[AkaGoodguy]

ok fair enough.

[Krahman]

What's the tier list based on?

[Link-NY]

What's the tier list based on?

Its a list of how good characters are. with fox being the first worst character on the list. =b

[pdk]

it's based on a night filled with booze and dungeons & dragons dice that have "custom" labels with character names attached with elmer's glue

[mrb1tch3s]

I just say that tiers should be updated at least once a month.... and easier to find i might add. And like someone said before. Thats right Luigi isnt low tier. Luigi has impossible recover time and almost no lag on his attacks.

[Emblem Lord]

ROFLMFAO@ above post

[pdk]

I just say that tiers should be updated at least once a month.... and easier to find i might add. And like someone said before. **** right Luigi isnt low tier. Luigi has impossible recover time and almost no lag on his attacks.

1) recovery is super-easy for characters with projectiles to disrupt; i'll give you $50,000 if you can recover as luigi with a peach waiting at the ledge
2) laggy on just about everything else
3) the list would stay the same for long, long intervals

[Ensee]

What's the tier list based on?

Since no one correctly answered your question, I will tell you.
The tier list is based on tournament winnings with certain types of characters.
Therefore it means people who play Fox and Falco win most of the tournaments.

[Gustav Wind]

I'm not defending the guy saying "move luigi up", it's just that you misunderstood what he meant by "recover time"...

What he means is like, if you dthrow a luigi with C. Falcon (that earns you an aerial hit on most characters), he can easily nair you out of your combo.