The 2006-2008 Tier list

[tarheeljks]

so of the the three, only sheik "rapes" marth. Falco is even, fox is more or less even, maybe a slight advantage.

@dragon: the burden of proof is on you as you are the one who claims that the status quo is incorrect.

[AlphaZealot]

Actually I think technically the burdan of proof is on the person saying tournament results explain things, and so reddragon is right. It's just to bad that I actually have plenty of data to back up things.

MLG Vegas, with arguably the 8 best Smashers in the country competeing, had a finals of PC Chris versus KoreanDJ. It was Fox versus Falco then Fox versus Fox once KoreanDJ figured out how to beat PC Chris's Falco.

Mew2King, Forward, PC Chris, Chillin, KoreanDJ, Tink, and Dope have all placed high or won large tournaments in the last year using a space animal (MLG Vegas, MLG New York, FC6, misc smaller tournaments in DC/NY/Midwest). Before Mew2king, PC Chris, and KoreanDJ started winning no one really challenged Ken except Azen, after M2K/PC/KDJ started really stepping it up they managed to challenge Ken, and they did it using the space animals (and Shiek if your KDJ). Ken is essentially the only player in the country who was capable of winning large tournaments using ONLY Marth. M2K recently has started to step it up, but its more a response to ChuDat's Ice CLimbers (which usually rape the space animals) than it is in response to beating other space animal players.

The only two people who have managed large scale success with characters that aren't Fox/Falco is ChuDat and Ken (maybe Isai too, but he doesn't try in singles). Consequently though, the only characters that have challenged Ken is Fox/Falco (and KDJ's Sheik/Azen's Marth, but that is less seldom than the threat from the space animals).

[Tera253]

Tera has nothing against low-tier tounreys since Pikachu is right on down there.
~Tera253~

[BigRick]

*looks at AZ's post*

that's why top tier is truly:

Fox
Sheik
Falco
Marth

If you look at Ken/PC/M2K/KDJ, it seems that we have 2 Fox/Sheik, 1 Marth/Fox and 1 Falco/Fox... therefore, Fox takes 1st and Sheik 2nd!

[tarheeljks]

dissenting is fine, but if you want to come into a discussion and assert that aforementioned statements regarding Marth's place in the tier list are incorrect, you need to offer some proof of your own. the "rank" of each character (well maybe just the top half) has been discussed extensively, and so the arguments for the current list exist w/n the preceding 122 pages of posts. at any rate, i'll entertain since zealot is a mod. . .

i don't think marth should be any higher b/c of his matchup w/sheik. this matchup presents a big problem for marths, as they are likely to face a sheik at some point during a tournament. as a result marths tend not to advance as far as higher tier characters, thus he is lower on the tier list. obviously ken is phenomenal, but i don't think one player can determine the overall strength of a character. so if he beats a sheik, i don't interpret that as meaning marth>sheik. i interpret it as one more reason why he is one of, if not the best.

so there's the foundation of my reasoning as to why marth is where he should be. why do you think he should be higher?

[fletch71011]

First off, I agree with the order that the tiers are in, as although Marth is a phenomenal character, his weaknesses against the characters above him put him where he currently is. The problem, however, that I have with the list is the separation of the tiers. Sheiks and Marths still do tremendously well in tournaments, and definitely hold their own against the space animals, just not as much. If Sheik and Marth moved up into the space animal tier, along with maybe bring Falcon into the 2nd tier with Peach, I think the tier list would be much more accurate. I believe M2K made a post saying something about this not too long ago, but the gist of his post basically was that there really are only 4 serious characters that can win a tournament (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth), with some outliers (EX: Chu's IC's).

[captain smashie01]

...accurate. I believe M2K made a post saying something about this not too long ago, but the gist of his post basically was that there really are only 4 serious characters that can win a tournament (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth), with some outliers (EX: Chu's IC's).


heh, at a recent UK tournament, the top 3 were
1.jiggs
2. CF
3. Link

tho i guess that says more about the Uk than the teir list...

[DarkKnight077]

Everyone is saying: "OmG gUys its AlL about TounaMents placing!!!11!!"

Show me who won the last major tounaments with what charactors.
Show me facts to prove me wroung..........

Easy, go to MLG.com. Or...use google.com.

[Big Burn]

any word on when this thing will be updated?

[fletch71011]

any word on when this thing will be updated?

More than likely it will not be, as it doesn't really matter, requires a lot of effort, and Brawl will be out (hopefully) shortly.

[FoulPlay]

There only ever needs to be 3 tiers.

Broken:
Marth
Fox
Sheik
Peach
Falco

Good:
Samus
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Crap:
Everyone else

(NOTE: Characters aren't ranked in any specific order with in tiers.)

It's stupid that the tiers change every year. It was fine to keep updating them when we were still learning things about the game. But how is Falco suddenly better then Sheik, Peach, & Marth if he wasn't a year ago? What do we know about Falco now that we didn't know a year ago?

It's like now they just change the tiers every year for shock value.

Link isn't crap. :/

[SpruceTengu]

get link and luigi out of low tier so people stop complaining in low tier tournaments. you can simply bump them up to the next level.....but keep the same order. i think it would fix a lot.

I'd have to agree there. Playing with a darn good Link and a darn good Luigi in my smash circle, I'd have to say neither of those characters deserves to be grouped with the lower tier characters... granted its acknowledged that they're higher than them to some degree, I think the separation there is greater than people are giving credit simply by placing them in the top of the low tier. They have alot of good moves, and are generally characters people can get very good with; just because they're less popular (and therefore have lesser standing in tournies) doesn't mean they should be slapped down in the tiers entirely. Also; if they were added to the middle tier, its true that the middle tier would be huge, but thats what people are hoping to see in general; a more balanced selection of characters.

[TheManaLord]

lol @ DK in low tier xD

That's gonna change.

[halfDemon]

Zelda should not be bottom. Her FAir/Bair make her good enough for top of low.

And DK rules.

[Citrussed]

Not top of low... but she truly not meant to be in bottom... I think. >_>
I think im just saying that cause I play her.

[halfDemon]

I don't even play as her and I think she needs to be moved up. She's highly underrated.

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Wow, I must say. A lot of things have changed since my absence. My initial reaction to the list was "what has happened in the last year?", but then I noticed how the tiers were generated by the back room. I know that it's useless to argue the point of tier lists at this point, but coming from my experience, I don't think I've ever seen a tier list for any game based entirely upon one aspect alone. It can go awry when you do.

Oversaturation of characters played can skew a potential result here. When you have a bunch of people winning with a certain character, it doesn't automatically mean that character's the best, just a balance of easy to win with vs. actual character ability. Not saying Fox is a scrubby character, because by all means he's not, but there's a reason Ken's one of the few truly talented Marth's out there.

An extreme case would be to say that the community started picking, oh, Mario more than any other, for example, from the full gamut of skill level players. By sheer volume alone, Mario would be winning tournaments more than any other. Does this mean that Mario's a top tier character?

On the flipside, if one plays theory fighter all day, Fox takes top spot anyway. In theory alone, all one has to do is be hit by some light attack, and then you're waveshined to death. Of course, this is akin to saying Strider and Doctor Doom are the undeniable top tier in MvC2 due to their neverending, inescapable chip damage trap. Neither are treated as such because the execution required to do this without fail (which would be required to truly base it on these factors alone), and as such, can't be taken worth more than a grain of salt until someone shows it can be done.

The trick is to find a balance between results and ability. It's not the results themselves that should be watched, but WHY the results are the way they are. This still allows for great variability, as players come and go, skill increases, styles change, new strategies discovered. A tier list should show the current potential based on player skill, rather than the current results of the player skill, and rather than the potential for a character regardless of player skill. It's almost better to take who's currently winning, see why they're winning, who they're winning against, and base an opinion on that, over seeing what characters pop up where.

Anyway, this ol' vet's done rambling. So many new names, so few old. I guess the community really has changed beyond recognition. ^^;

[straight8]

I agree with ^^^. I really wish there were less people who played fox and falco and marth, because then a lot more characters would get recognition by being moved higher up. I really think young link and ics should be moved up as well as captain falcon, but I guess everyone always just sees how good fox players are instead of choosing someone else and really trying to master them (like yoshi or kirby).

[arrowhead]

really, kirby has no potential

but i'd say the lower you go on the tier list, the more opinionated it gets

[Aesir]

i cant believe people are STILL saying tiers are a popularity contest................ROFL!!!!!!!!!

ask yourself this, why do so many people play fox and falco? gg.

bcuz evry1 lykz teh furreh pr0n lulz

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

i cant believe people are STILL saying tiers are a popularity contest................ROFL!!!!!!!!!

ask yourself this, why do so many people play fox and falco? gg.

Like I said - they're the easies to get a win with. Greatest reward with the least effort. By that measure, they're the middleground of the execution vs. ability balance, so yeah, they get picked a lot. It's just not a good way to set a standard. When it comes down to it, Marth and Shiek don't really have reliable counterpicks. Fox and Falco do. The ability that they can handle their situations regardless of their opponent better is a huge factor in deciding who's best.

Tiers really should be decided by comparing the matchups of each character with each character with the current state of the game being played by 'em, not by their numbers of who's playing them. A solid tiering is a scale - compare one character to the rest of the cast, and see how they handle it, partially in theory based on the current playstyles, and partially in practice. Typically, these are done in a 10 round fashion, with a 9-1 comparison being a slaughter from one character (say, Fox vs. Bowser), and a 5-5 being a really even fight (Marth vs. Shiek). Once you compare 'em this way, you line 'em up and see who has the worst matches vs. the best, how good they do overall, then see who their worst and best matches are to get a weighed average. From there, it's much more clear on how it can lie. Comparing them this way, the old top-tier would be the same 3 as before - Marth, Shiek, Fox.

As I said before, if everyone started playing mostly Ness, and because of the volume, Ness's started emerging as winners of tournaments, would you assume he's top tier now? Quality over quantity.

[All_Characters]

I find tier list very irritating for 2 reasons.

1. When people see that a certain character is doing really well, they start to use that character more. When more people start to use a character, they start to do better, and that influences the NEXT tier list.

2. This is sort of the opposite of my previous point, but when someone playing a high tiered character, beats someone playing a low tiered character, the person who is low-tier has the easy excuse of "my guy is low tier, why are you being cheap and using high tier?"

For most people's purposes, the tier list is nearly useless. It only makes a difference at the much higher levels. Most people have fairly even matches between low-tiers and high-tiers. So why have the list?

[$ick]

Lmao @ your little sig ^^ Winning 75% of the time. You're just too good. The tier list is a year old. Of course there are mistakes about it.

[_the_sandman_]

I'm glad to see Marth is slowly moving down the list. It seems like people are realizing that he really only has one good attack!

Go ahead, claim that Ken is so great. But he only verses the same 3 characters. He's never faced a character like Yoshi or Pikachu before.

Just because a Marth player makes a video doesn't mean they're the best. In fact because they have to have videos, pretty much shows a lack of self esteem in their skills.

Lower Marth to Bottom now, people will thank you for it in the end.

[MikulOnIce85]

What i find funny is how falco used to be much lower in the previous tier list (or two) and suddenly came into top tier if my memory is working right, the people's realised just how much of a b@stard the shl and shine combo's can be :chuckle:

[Smooth_One]

I agree with Cyntalan. A game whose tier list is based on the players (instead of the game itself) is a game whose tier list is seriously flawed.
Your method would be ideal, but there is a problem with it I think.
The problem with that method of tier selection is that the high-tiered characters' matchups against the lower-tiered characters (who aren't used regularly in tourneys) aren't as relevant as their high-tier matchups.
For instance, saying that Fox does better against Falcon means a lot more than saying Fox does extremely well against Bowser, since Falcon is used much frequently more than Bowser is.
There needs to be a curve geared towards the more frequently-used characters. After that then I can't see why it wouldn't make 100% more sense than the current tier list's method of creation.

Sandman...
If you think Marth has only one good move, try watching vids without Drephen.
Ken is so great. And lol @ him never playing a Pika or Yoshi.
Yeah I'm sure people only make vids because they're depressed in their Smash skills.
...I hope you're joking about moving Marth to Bottom Tier.

[fletch71011]

I'm glad to see Marth is slowly moving down the list. It seems like people are realizing that he really only has one good attack!

Go ahead, claim that Ken is so great. But he only verses the same 3 characters. He's never faced a character like Yoshi or Pikachu before.

Just because a Marth player makes a video doesn't mean they're the best. In fact because they have to have videos, pretty much shows a lack of self esteem in their skills.

Lower Marth to Bottom now, people will thank you for it in the end.

Wow at this post. One good move? Which of all of his insanely good moves do you happen to be talking about?

Any Ken has played those lower tiers before, he's played pretty much the best of every character in the world (e.g. Aniki's Link, Chu's Climbers, Azen's everything, etc.), but usually beats them all. That and Marth absolutely rapes most the lower tier anyways, Pikachu especially.

[Rapid_Assassin]

Mains: Fox, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ness, Ice Climbers, Pikachu Win 75%

Secondarys: Falco, Marth, Ganondorf, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Pichu, Roy, Zelda, Young Link, Samus Win 50%

Dont Use As much: Yoshi, Mewtwo, Kriby, Link, Win 10%

Refuse to Use: Mario, Luigi, Doctor Mario. Win 0%

Who the **** are you playing against if you're winning 75% of the time? And how can you forget GW on your little list? :(

I'm glad to see Marth is slowly moving down the list. It seems like people are realizing that he really only has one good attack!

Go ahead, claim that Ken is so great. But he only verses the same 3 characters. He's never faced a character like Yoshi or Pikachu before.

LOL, looks like someone is new to smash...

Also, I should play against Ken with Yoshi or Pikachu, not because I can play them (because i suck with them), but just to prove your theory wrong. Or one of the characters you say he never plays against, because chances are at least 4 of the characters I play is not on your list of characters that Ken has fought before.

I agree with Cyntalan. A game whose tier list is based on the players (instead of the game itself) is a game whose tier list is seriously flawed.

It's based on both. The players do better with higher tiered characters in tournaments because they are better characters. Of course the tier list will be flawed. No one knows exactly how to take into account all matchups with all possible players, so they do their best guess of it. And while some characters can afford to move a few spaces up or down, the characters are all pretty close to where they should be, give or take a few slots...

[Smooth_One]

Rapid, going along with Cyntalan, characters are at the top not because they are the best (which I'm not saying they aren't), but because more people use them (and do well) in tourneys. If Ken, PC, Isai, Chu, Forward, and every other Smasher out there, started pwning with Ganon, he would be top tier. But the way the tier list is set up, that doesn't even mean that he's the best in the game.
So no it's not directly based on the in-game characters.
It is a good system, and it works, but it wouldn't be very hard to screw up theoretically.

*sigh*
Maybe the tier list was invented just to provide us Smashers with endless amounts of opinions on how it is flawed.

[Aesir]

Rapid, going along with Cyntalan, characters are at the top not because they are the best (which I'm not saying they aren't), but because more people use them (and do well) in tourneys. If Ken, PC, Isai, Chu, Forward, and every other Smasher out there, started pwning with Ganon, he would be top tier.
Lol no **** because everyone would be using the same character. nice logical deduction there sherlock.




*sigh*
Maybe the tier list was invented just to provide us Smashers with endless amounts of opinions on how it is flawed.

Tier list was designed so there would be a lot less flame wars on "who is the best character?" without it the boards would be chaotic.

[Pakman]

The people who make the tier list know what they are doing. It is updated frequently because this game is fluid. The same styles that were winning two years ago have been changing. If you want to get some character moved up the tier list. Find a respectable tournament and win with him.

The key to the tier list is that skill >>> tierlist/character matchups. Chu's ICs are amazing but he will probably beat 95% of the smashers out there with Y. link pichu and G&W. The reason the top tiers are there is that they have the most strengths and fewest weakests.

The tier list reflects the current level of play. If the tier list is re-evaluated. DK will move up because of players like bum.

[Pat/Pro]

Rapid, going along with Cyntalan, characters are at the top not because they are the best (which I'm not saying they aren't), but because more people use them (and do well) in tourneys. If Ken, PC, Isai, Chu, Forward, and every other Smasher out there, started pwning with Ganon, he would be top tier.

You couldnt pwn with ganon because everytime he played a shiek or good falco they would get pwned. The tier list isnt flawed. Its based off current meta game. Like how before people figured out waveshining and things like that fox wasnt as good. The tier list is pretty much how good all the characters are and is pretty indicative of the matchups.

[Deathcarter]

After you go past the middle tier, it is very hard for the tier list to accurately base its positioning on matchups cause of very contrasting styles and weird learning curves, but it probably is very accurate on The abilities of top/high tier characters compared to each other and everyone else. That is just my opinion.

P.S. When are they going to update the tier list? I hope that time is soon.

[TheManaLord]

The hardest to do is the low/bottom because nobody plays them, and once somebody does, they're gonna move up (bum's dk for example).

[frotaz37]

DK won't move up.

[TheManaLord]

DK won't move up.

look at the two above him in BOTTOM tier, link and luigi. these two will never get fourth at a major tourny against the best players in the world. dk on the other hand has always shown incredible promise (captain jack, azen, m2k, and now bum bringing him to the limelight)

[frotaz37]

Yeah cause people like Ka-Master, Azen, Yagi, Aniki, and GERM have never and never will exist.

Ever.

[TheManaLord]

where do they place with link? exactly

germ plays falco now, aniki plays samus now, azen never placed w/ link, ka master and yagi lolz


srsly dawg dont bother >_>

[frotaz37]

You're right, I shouldn't bother, it's pointless to argue with total idiots who know nothing about this game.

"Germ plays Falco now" Just because he plays Falco does not mean he doesn't play Link. ****ing duh.

Aniki constantly placed high with Link, plus, how do you know he doesn't EVER play Link? You don't.

Azen has placed well in tournaments with lots of characters.

Yagi doesn't really play anymore but was easily the best Luigi for his time.

And Ka-Master is the number 1 player in Washington, considered better than Sastopher, a peach who's beaten a LOT of good players.


Bum places high in one major tourney, and all of a sudden DK needs to move up? Yeah, I don't think so. If you think that you really have no idea what the tier list is about.

[TheManaLord]

lawlz ***** plox, no **** ppl play dif characters, that's common sense. you keep sayin' that these ppl play with these chars, who CARES. they dont place currently or consistently. bum will continue to rock the tournys and beat top tier characters to get to the top.