The 2006-2008 Tier list

[BigRick]

It is based off tourney results.
If more Foxes win tournies, that means he is higher tier.
And, as logic dictates, if there are more Foxes playing, a higher ratio of Foxes will win (even IF he weren't the best character in the game, that would be true).
If a thousand people all started using Mario and won tourneys, that means Mario would move up. But only BECAUSE people started using and winning with him, not because he magically got better.

There. Popularity affects the tiers.

ROFL

What's up with that's crap reasoning... is this the Million Mario March???
Ken and M2K by themselves would probably rape a thousand marios so Fox and Marth would still remain above on the tier list.


>_>' Honestly, ManaLord and 5150. 'gg 2 u' and 'no' don't prove anything except you can't reason well enough to think of a, eh, reasonable response.

lol expect crappy answers for crappy arguments

[SCOTU]

Smooth one's kinda on the right track, but the thousand mario players winning would be offset w/ a thousand mario players losing. and just becase more ppl play fox doesn't make him higher on the tier list because statistically more ppl would win w/ fox. many would also loses w/ fox, so it balances some.

Oh, and BigRick, i still think that is an awesome sig.

[spike9407]

Smooth one's kinda on the right track, but the thousand mario players winning would be offset w/ a thousand mario players losing. and just becase more ppl play fox doesn't make him higher on the tier list because statistically more ppl would win w/ fox. many would also loses w/ fox, so it balances some.

Oh, and BigRick, i still think that is an awesome sig.

No it doesn't even out because there is no results saying 30 Foxes lost at so and so tournament. There could however be results saying 6/8 of the top 8 were Foxes through most of the tournament. Tiers and popularity go hand in hand. Let's say SSBM just came out. 50% of the competitive community, in a certain area, have used Captain Falcon as much or more than any other character and consider him their main. About 10% of the people, in the competitive community that also live in that area, that used Captain Falcon got really good with him in the first month. There are many videos of him destroying different characters so some competitive smashers in that area that were starting to get decent with Fox changed to him. 5 percent more of the competitive smashers in that area are maining him. 55% main him at the time. 11% of that area are really good with him by the second month and a MLG tourney is held. It's a 400 person one. 180 are Captain Falcons. There are 90 people that are a character in the current bottom tier, low tier, or middle teir excluding Captain Falcon. 130 are Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, or Sheik. 8 percent of that area that was really good with him were there. So that makes 6.4% percent of the people there really good Captain Falcons. Captain Falcon has a 45% chance of winning. 10 of the really good Captain Falcons make top 24. They get 1st and 2nd. Fox in 3rd, Shiek 4th, and Marth 5th. Then the tier list would be Captain Falcon as first for probably a good long time until the diehard Fox fans make a breakthrough and a lot of there potential is unlocked. Oh whats that? The top player uses Fox. And a very good player uses him? Well he can still be 2nd on the list.

[REDRAGON]

Tell me why this theory is wrong:
Ken, M2K, and Azen use Marth to his full potential and IF you have the skill to master him then he is #1...
Fox's full potential is not as good, getting his full potential beats a Marth player that has not mastered Marth, but if the Marth fully masters him, then Marth pwns...

Redragon

[darE::to::Dream]

Didn't KDJ's Sheik beat M2K's Marth? Does that mean Sheik is #0, kind of like Isai in the power rankings?

[REDRAGON]

Didn't KDJ's Sheik beat M2K's Marth? Does that mean Sheik is #0, kind of like Isai in the power rankings?

That was a lil while back and M2k would pwn in rematch.
Trust me :cool:


Redragon

[Emblem Lord]

I think it shows that Marth's peak is easier to hit then Foxes or Falcos. A space animal at their peak would be unstoppable. But Marth is less technical but is till a threat. So it's a bit easiar to become beastly with him and become a "perfect" Marth then it is to become a "perfect" Fox or Falco.

Do you really think Marth is superior to Spacies with thier combos and thier shines? That one move, shine is just so godly in so many ways. A perfect space animal with perfect shines would be unbeatable.

Perfect Marth is more easily obtained so that's why the most elite use him. Because it's so hard to hit the full potential of spacies.

[darE::to::Dream]

I said M2K, not Ken. Which happened a little less than two months ago.

Ken hasn't been to a major tournament in a little while and probably won't show up again until OC3. I wonder if he'll shake up the brackets again when he reappears....

[spike9407]

Tell me why this theory is wrong:
Ken, M2K, and Azen use Marth to his full potential and IF you have the skill to master him then he is #1...
Fox's full potential is not as good, getting his full potential beats a Marth player that has not mastered Marth, but if the Marth fully masters him, then Marth pwns...

Redragon

Fox's peak is way harder to reach and way better if reached then they are unstoppable. Shining alone is quite dangerous if mastered due to the fact they can't get back if you're shine is good enough.

[REDRAGON]

I think it shows that Marth's peak is easier to hit then Foxes or Falcos. A space animal at their peak would be unstoppable. But Marth is less technical but is till a threat. So it's a bit easiar to become beastly with him and become a "perfect" Marth then it is to become a "perfect" Fox or Falco.

Do you really think Marth is superior to Spacies with thier combos and thier shines? That one move, shine is just so godly in so many ways. A perfect space animal with perfect shines would be unbeatable.

Perfect Marth is more easily obtained so that's why the most elite use him. Because it's so hard to hit the full potential of spacies.

Fox's peak is way harder to reach and way better if reached then they are unstoppable. Shining alone is quite dangerous if mastered due to the fact they can't get back if you're shine is good enough.

Thats what my friend said, heres how i reply:
I can easily agree for Marth because i have PROOF:
Ken, Azen, M2k pwn with Marth and they win most the tourneys they go to because they have mastered Marth.
You are basing you agreement off of an idea, an idea that has not been proven. All you can say is "Oh IF you mastered him you would pwn"
Prove it!

I said M2K, not Ken. Which happened a little less than two months ago.

Ken hasn't been to a major tournament in a little while and probably won't show up again until OC3. I wonder if he'll shake up the brackets again when he reappears....

I said M2K too :)
Ken went to a small tourney that i went too a few weeks ago and it still playing, not as much but still going.

[darE::to::Dream]

I said M2K too :)

Last edited by REDRAGON : Today at 09:35 PM.
My post: Today 08:54 PM

Thank you, but you can't change the past without people noticing.

Prove it!
Prove Marth is the best by picking up Marth and winning some major tournaments with him. Or, stop making unreasonable demands.

[REDRAGON]

Last edited by REDRAGON : Today at 09:35 PM.
My post: Today 08:54 PM

Thank you, but you can't change the past without people noticing.


Prove Marth is the best by picking up Marth and winning some major tournaments with him. Or, stop making unreasonable demands.

Yeah that was a joke.......:ohwell:........whatever lol

YOU my friend are making unreasonable demands. I never said i was the best. lol
Marth has won TONS of tourneys(Maybe even like 90% if the people who have mastered him are there)
You are saying: Fox is the best but no one has mastered him.
How bout YOU start making some reasonable demands??? :p


Redragon

[darE::to::Dream]

I never said Fox was the best. Do read back a little and notice I did not say that at all. To ask people to give proof, when from my memory all you've done was ignore it and say something like "character 1 >>>>>>>> character 2 so someone give me proof otherwise!!!" seems a bit unappealing to me. To take that one step further and ask for evidence more compelling than Ken, Azen, and Mew2king, and you've got a "Well, prove to me that God doesn't exist!" argument.

Out of curiosity, didn't Ken and Mew2king both play Fox?

[REDRAGON]

I never said Fox was the best. Do read back a little and notice I did not say that at all. To ask people to give proof, when from my memory all you've done was ignore it and say something like "character 1 >>>>>>>> character 2 so someone give me proof otherwise!!!" seems a bit unappealing to me. To take that one step further and ask for evidence more compelling than Ken, Azen, and Mew2king, and you've got a "Well, prove to me that God doesn't exist!" argument.

Out of curiosity, didn't Ken and Mew2king both play Fox?

Do you think Fox is the best? Yes or no
I have proof for my agreement because all those pros pwn with Marth. Who pwns with Fox at a consistent rate and wins many tourneys?
Ken plays Fox a lil, against certain matchup and certain stages he will
M2K did and does but i think he plays Marth more now, and he is doing better with Marth(i think)

[darE::to::Dream]

The theoretically "perfect Fox" can only be seen in SDM's No Mercy, Adventure, and Perfect Control series, but it's pretty telling of how strong perfect gets.

My post was simply a counter-argument to your definition of the best - that Sheik still has an advantage on Marth, and is still pretty heavily played.

[Aesir]

marth and sheik are amazing when played with pros, why they have loads of experience backing them up they're easer to play. Not as technically straining as fox and falco.

However Fox and Falco, essentially are the better characters, why? you can essentially learn falco tech and be a moderately smart player and bingo you're competitive. Its not the fact that marth and sheik are better, its the fact that they're easier to play, then fox/falco where as fox and falco require **** loads of tech.

edit: this post is meant to shut everyone up, probably not but I'm bored and need to do something.

[BigRick]

Fox/Falco are too good.

Screw the name Melee, let's call this game ''Star Fox: The Fighters'' instead.

[Adi]

Your sig would be dissapointed in you.

[majoras.]

Do you think Fox is the best? Yes or no
I have proof for my agreement because all those pros pwn with Marth. Who pwns with Fox at a consistent rate and wins many tourneys?
Ken plays Fox a lil, against certain matchup and certain stages he will
M2K did and does but i think he plays Marth more now, and he is doing better with Marth(i think)

Fox is not the best, but he is better than marth

[SCOTU]

who wins major tourneys w/ fox?
Here's the top 12 players on the last smash panel power rankings.
1. Ken 1 ▬ Marth
2. Chu Dat 2 ▬ Ice Climbers
3. Mew2King 6 ▲ 4 Fox
4. PC Chris 3 ▼ 1 Falco, Fox
5. Azen 5 ▬ Marth, various
6. KoreanDJ 7 ▲ 1 Fox, Sheik
7. Isai 4 ▼ 3 Sheik, Captain Falcon, Fox
8. Chillindude 8 ▬ Fox
9. Dope 10 ▲ 1 Falco
10. Vidjogamer 13 ▲ 3 Peach
11. KM 12 ▲ 1 Falco, Fox, Marth
12. Tink 11 ▼ 1 Fox, Falco

Note that Ken's fox is arguably just as good as his marth.
so you have:
Ken, M2K, PC, Azen, KDJ, Isai, Chillin, Dope (i've been told he 2nds fox), KM, Tink.

That's 10/ top 12. only 4 Marths (Ken, M2K, Azen, KM) There, proof. are you frikin happy?

[The Hypnotist]

It's not a popularity contest. It's who's the best, and FTR Ken's Marth is the best. Period. With your logic Ice Climbers should be before Peach because there is only one Peach in the top 12 and only one IC, and the IC is better.

[TGM]

Marth is 4th for a reason. fox/falco are flat out better than he is. faster, move combos, and they have a shine.

[Aesir]

I don't exactly think shine is sole reason, but yeah for the most part you're right. >___>

[BigRick]

Your sig would be dissapointed in you.

What? Fox/Falco might be too good... but Falcon is godlike!

[TGM]

I don't exactly think shine is sole reason, but yeah for the most part you're right. >___>


shine isnt the sole reason but its a VERY IMPORTANT PART. think, if they didnt have the shine that would mean many combos would not be avalible to bust out.

[Aesir]

^ Hence why you listed combos, that would include shine. But who cares? >_>

[Wilhelmsan]

Fox without shine would still be high tier with upthrow->upair and his nair/bair tandem.

oh and upsmash...that move is so bloody good.

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Part of arguing for tiers based on Theory Fighter is the current capability to play at that theoretical level. A comparison I like to draw from is Marvel Vs. Capcom 2. The game has been dumbed down to 4 characters over the years, and while they are considered the best, in Theory Fighter, they all lose to a specific duo - Strider/Doom. Strider super w/ Doom's anti-air assist makes for a high-chip damage trap that is impossible to escape, provided the Strider can keep up the execution flawlessly. The problem? It's really easy to mess up the execution. Strider's commands are easy to mix up, and if one gets entered instead of the other, it not only ends the trap, but puts both Strider AND Doom in full vulnerability for a potentially devastating amount of time.

Similarly, Fox, in Theory Fighter, should be undeniably the best character due to waveshining being a makeshift infinite. All it should take is one shine, then shine until they're off the stage, then repeat. Of course, the execution for such maneuvers is really easy to mess up, and one mess up is all it takes for the opponent to escape. Unlike the Strider/Doom instance, however, it doesn't necessarily put Fox in a devastatingly bad position.

So really, one does need to take the current level of execution into play, as well as the current metagame. You can't pull the results of the best players and say the characters they use are the best any more than you can pull the popular results and quantify the character placings. You can, however, look at those results, and understand WHY the results are what they are. What the current strategy is, what works, what doesn't, how well can people reliably execute said strategy, as well as input understanding. These are the factors that pull a tier list from pure Theory Fighter into an understandable list.

[shotafan]

...some people here need to actually go and play in REAL tournaments and then you'll begin to agree with the tier list...If that doesn't help then try learning all the characters and then you'll begin to see why the tier list is the way it is. I mean I'm a super hardcore Peach player but I'm not gonna argue that she's top tier or anything. (Besides I'm already happy that she's high tier...WEE~EEE!!!)

[Sandy]

I could really care less about tiers, SSB is about playing as your favorite Nintendo characters, not playing as the top tier Fox all the time. In other words, I play the game to have fun, regardless of how bad the character may be I still would enjoy using a character I like a lot.

[BigRick]

I could really care less about tiers, SSB is about playing as your favorite Nintendo characters, not playing as the top tier Fox all the time. In other words, I play the game to have fun, regardless of how bad the character may be I still would enjoy using a character I like a lot.

well if you just play friendlies, then you shouldn't really care

[wordman]

Which version of Smash is the one nobody plays? NTSC or PAL?

[Sandy]

I'm guessing PAL. But your question doesn't make sense.

[wordman]

I'm guessing PAL. But your question doesn't make sense.


Isn't that the version that is considered balanced or was the ssbm .1 is what I'm trying say? Sorry if I confused you I'm just curious why no one plays it if it is.

[Wilhelmsan]

PAL is supposedly more balanced, with no sheik chaingrab, weakened fox upsmash, and lots of other things.

Shouldn't middle tier go

CF
Samus
Ice Climbers
...
...
...
...

Each character matches well with the one below it

[1048576]

Fox without shine would still be high tier with upthrow->upair and his nair/bair tandem.

oh and upsmash...that move is so bloody good.

Fox without shine would have nothing to break up combos. If Fox gets hit, he gets juggled for three minutes and then flung off the stage. Fox with no shine would have no way to prevent getting hit/grabbed after a shielded aerial. Mid tier, below Link.

[wordman]

Fox without shine would have nothing to break up combos. If Fox gets hit, he gets juggled for three minutes and then flung off the stage. Fox with no shine would have no way to prevent getting hit/grabbed after a shielded aerial. Mid tier, below Link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZ1nvagxT8&mode=related&search=

[_the_sandman_]

I think Fox should be high on the tier list because of what he is capable of. He has great moves and stats. He shouldn't be represented at the top only because of one move.

[Rapid_Assassin]

Fox without a shine might not be the best character, but he'd definitely still be high tier. He still has speed combined with moves that do a lot of damage for how fast he is, and still has gay combos without shine. His entire moveset is broken, except maybe f-air...

[teh_nuke]

Which version of Smash is the one nobody plays? NTSC or PAL?
PAL is the format in Europe and Australia, NTSC is the format in North America... There is no version that nobody plays.