The 2006-2008 Tier list [Archive] - Page 65

Emblem Lord

07-16-2007, 10:22 PM

This is why there should be two tier list.

One list would show placement based on potential and actual match-ups.

The other would show placement based soley on tourney results. Marth generally wins tournies because he faces mostly Foxes and Falcos and maybe some Sheiks. The popular character choices in tournies allows him to do well. These are factors we must consider.

Aesir

07-16-2007, 10:35 PM

Marth has a lot of weird low tier match ups. and goes even with a lot of other characters. If people played those said characters more often, chances are marths wouldn't do as well. Mind you they would probably still win tourneys but the frequency of them wouldn't matter.

the reason I feel why you don't see that is because F/F/S rape everything in their path pretty much.

Pat/Pro

07-16-2007, 10:41 PM

agreed ^^

Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth all on average do pretty much the same against each other but marth has the worst matchup average among all of the other characters.

mood4food77

07-16-2007, 10:49 PM

marth vs. low tier

he goes even with the links, yoshi, my kirby can give some marth's trouble (KIRBYCIDES FTW), but that's rape to kirby, uhhhh, he just doesn't rape low tiers like sheik does, fox and falco can have trouble with some of them (fox with bowser, dk, ness, g&w, luigi [on large stages] and falco with DK, ness, g&w), peach rapes them all too, as well as ganon (except for link and DK in which he has slight advantages)

trademark0013

07-16-2007, 10:52 PM

I agree 100% but Falcon above Peach...

um... why...???

darE::to::Dream

07-16-2007, 10:59 PM

um... why...???

Because he's a moron. If you look back a couple pages, he was insisting against all arguments that, in his words, "Peach >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falcon." I'm not exactly sure what prompted the change of heart, but the fact is that Peach has proven much harder to take to the top levels of competition than Captain Falcon, as many, many major tournament results will show.

fletch71011

07-16-2007, 11:20 PM

Because he's a moron. If you look back a couple pages, he was insisting against all arguments that, in his words, "Peach >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falcon." I'm not exactly sure what prompted the change of heart, but the fact is that Peach has proven much harder to take to the top levels of competition than Captain Falcon, as many, many major tournament results will show.

Exactly, I think she's really just too slow compared to Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Falcon, and now that people have gotten over her "broken" d-smash, she really hasn't proven to be as good as those characters, although she's probably right after them on the list.

mood4food77

07-16-2007, 11:23 PM

pretty much, outside of the top tiers, she rapes all but links, ganon, and jiggs, that's the reason why she's up so high, so if you look at it like this

even with fox
advantage over falco
disadavantage to sheik
countered by marth
even with peach
disadvantage to falcon
advantage over ICs
advantage over samus
disadvantage to jiggs
disadvantage to ganon
even with link
even with y. link

outside of those match-ups, she rapes the rest

Pat/Pro

07-16-2007, 11:58 PM

if you think peach is even with fox you are crazy. Fox definitely has advantage over peach its not as big as some people think it is but its definitely an advantage. Peach is like the easiest character to shine combo of the good characters, up throw up air is always viable, and she dies at pretty reasonable percents. No one can kill peach as easily as fox. Plus it can be insanely easy to laser camp peach. Young link also has a slight advantage over her. Alot of IC's say she is their biggest counter too but I wouldnt know too much about that.

fletch71011

07-17-2007, 12:02 AM

pretty much, outside of the top tiers, she rapes all but links, ganon, and jiggs, that's the reason why she's up so high, so if you look at it like this

gets absolutely raped by fox
advantage over falco
huge disadavantage to sheik
countered by marth
even with peach
disadvantage to falcon
advantage over ICs
advantage over samus
disadvantage to jiggs
disadvantage to ganon
even with link
even with y. link

outside of those match-ups, she rapes the rest

Fixed it.

I'd say the Link matches are slightly in their favor as well, although not as much as everyone on the boards claims. Advantage over Samus is debatable as well, and I think Falco is more even with her than most people think, as his lasers can ruin her float game, although she probably still should have the upper hand there.

trademark0013

07-17-2007, 12:24 AM

even tho ppl arent CCign against her as much, i still say she has a much better chance against more characters than falcon

Brookman

07-17-2007, 12:29 AM

Where would Billy Joel fit in the tier list?

Rapid_Assassin

07-17-2007, 12:29 AM

Most Peach players I've met have a harder time with Fox than most other characters. I'd personally rather fight a Marth or Ganon as Peach than a Fox, but you can blame my crew or New England in general for having too many Marth and Ganon players.. :p

Sheik isn't that bad. At least not bad enough to warrant a "huge" disadvantage.. :)

trademark0013

07-17-2007, 12:36 AM

^^^ agreed. i'd rather fight a marth as peach. **** new england....

Del Money

07-17-2007, 01:26 AM

Top Tier: Marth, Fox <=> Sheik <=> Falco
High Tier: ICs, Peach, Falcon, DK

trademark0013

07-17-2007, 01:27 AM

care to explain why u placed ICs there? its wobbling isnt it?

Del Money

07-17-2007, 01:31 AM

ICs dominate the entire top tier (except Marth)

trademark0013

07-17-2007, 01:33 AM

spacies shine them.

and what about the rest of the list? peach.. who counters ICs...

56k

07-17-2007, 01:36 AM

Top Tier: Marth, Fox <=> Sheik <=> Falco
High Tier: ICs, Peach, Falcon, DK

...DK? .

Del Money

07-17-2007, 01:40 AM

ICs 0% to death fox/falco/sheik/falcon. peach isnt top tier. DK is a semi-even matchup for ICs

...DK? .

i was wondering if anyone would respond to that part haha. actually i think Jiggs should replace DK

Del Money

07-17-2007, 01:48 AM

sorry for the double post but i am a fox/DK player and the only characters i think DK has a real matchup problem with are falco/sheik/marth/jiggs/and fox (depending on how aggressive fox is). DK absolutely rapes falcon and the entire low tier and his decent matchups are marios(both),luigi,ganon, ICs,peach (to a degree) and samus (to a degree)

56k

07-17-2007, 01:49 AM

DK can rape Fox and Falco.

grab them hoes.

g0nz02

07-17-2007, 01:51 AM

Man, ICs have so much more potential than every other character in this game.

Del Money

07-17-2007, 01:57 AM

DK can rape Fox and Falco.

grab them hoes.

well yeah thats a given cuz of the fast fall but overall moveset wise, he has no chance against falco's immobilizing lasers ,edgeguard spikes,around around powerful smashes (except up-smash). fox combos DK as well as falco does but cant approach him as easily from a distance with laser spamming which allows DKs forward and down tilts to be more effective, thus leading to better DK-rape-fox chances

trademark0013

07-17-2007, 02:08 AM

actually i think Jiggs should replace DK

i agree with u on that

Del Money

07-17-2007, 02:13 AM

man i hate jiggs alot but come to think of it, jiggs can pwn or at least matchup against pretty much everyone except marth, yoshi, the links (if protectiles are spammed), and samus

Pat/Pro

07-17-2007, 02:59 AM

man i hate jiggs alot but come to think of it, jiggs can pwn or at least matchup against pretty much everyone except marth, yoshi, the links (if protectiles are spammed), and samus

umm are we forgetting fox. Fox is jiggs biggest counter if not 1st definitely his 2nd. I think you just forgot about him. And jiggs actually does real well against samus. He can rape samus's recovery and samus cant kill up.

edit:
i just went back and realized that you dont really know what you are talking about with the whole IC thing. ICs definitely do not dominate fox. Shines screw up ICs bad. And a good fox can kill nana very quickly. You almost never see a fox or falco gets 0 to deathed by an IC either. ICs do well against against fox and falco but I would say its still in their favor without a doubt. Plus ICs have alot of really tough matchups like with peach, samus, and jiggly (so ive been told).

REDRAGON

07-17-2007, 03:07 AM

umm are we forgetting fox. Fox is jiggs biggest counter if not 1st definitely his 2nd. I think you just forgot about him. And jiggs actually does real well against samus. He can rape samus's recovery and samus cant kill up.

edit:
i just went back and realized that you dont really know what you are talking about with the whole IC thing.

Fox is great against Jiggs but Jiggs has WAY more against Fox then Marth....
So Marth is Jiggs hardest for sure!

Pat/Pro

07-17-2007, 03:08 AM

Del I just saw taht you had Dk for high tier so i think what you put might actually be a joke.

Del Money

07-17-2007, 03:09 AM

umm are we forgetting fox. Fox is jiggs biggest counter if not 1st definitely his 2nd. I think you just forgot about him. And jiggs actually does real well against samus. He can rape samus's recovery and samus cant kill up.

ok i agree there. its been a couple months since i played melee and i overlooked fox's combo abilities on jiggs but forget jiggs instant combo to rest death on fox and that jiggs edgeguarding fox is almost inevitable

i just went back and realized that you dont really know what you are talking about with the whole IC thing.

how do you figure?

Del Money

07-17-2007, 03:19 AM

the DK thing was seriously just to see who was paying attention. i am a DK player however and his moveset relative to other characters, his attack priorities, and his hit range/hitboxes put him at mid-tier at best. you gotta admit it was a pretty funny joke. im actually surprised i didnt get flamed much for it.

and finally jiggs own most in edgeguarding but with regards to regular fighting marth's range/speed, fox's speed, and projectiles in general are jiggs major contenders. though jiggs would definitely prevail against samus and link in 1-button melee

Pat/Pro

07-17-2007, 03:24 AM

re reead what I posted beacuse I added to it about the IC's.

Plus fox should almost never get himself rested against jiggs. up throw to rest doesnt really happen at high levels of play.

Brookman

07-17-2007, 03:25 AM

DK mad cheap against (insert character name here).

Del Money

07-17-2007, 03:29 AM

fox is superior to jiggs but the difference isnt as great and most people thing. im sure youve heard of The King a.k.a supposedly the best jiggs player in the world (dont quote me on that though). if you watch his videos enough times, youll see what i mean

i can see ICs struggling with samus and potentially peach. i sure as hell dont see it with jiggs.

DK mad cheap against (insert character name here).

captain falcon especially (DKs up+Bas part of a combo works wonders, and his down tilt for edgeguarding against falcons even those who walltech), fox and falco when grabbed into up+airs, all the crappy tiers

REDRAGON

07-17-2007, 03:32 AM

Pat/Pro

07-17-2007, 03:40 AM

Ive seen kings videos. But most jiggly players will tell you that fox and marth are the two best jiggly counters and they both do extremely well against her.

Fox can kill her with an upsmash when she is as low as 60 something percent before the hit. Upthrow to u air is death to jiggly. You can get them by taking advantage of jiggs slow speed or through things like down air to grab. If jiggs misses a rest against fox she is screwed. You can either rack up damage with lasers then follow it up with a fully charged up smash or take the lasers to down air to up throw up air approach. Plus its not hard to laser camp jiggly either with fox.

And struggling against peach as for ICs isnt potential. Its a reality. Peach is probably the IC's biggest counter. Ask jsut about any good IC and they will tell you how hard peach is for them. I dont want to go into detail but it mostly has to do with the fact that the IC's aerial game is weak and her downsmash breaks up the ICs really well. Jiggs can be good against the ICs because you can get easy rests on nana and if jiggs gets nana off the stage she can kill her and there is nothing you can do about it by wop or even just f airs. Plus she rapes the ICs recovery. I dont know much about jiggs vs ics thats just what I have been told.

Del Money

07-17-2007, 03:41 AM

Yes, at high levels of play Jiggs has many nasty tricks against Fox

is this the dude who placed in the top 25% of all tournaments he goes to? and as a samus player no less? ill trust his word on this one, especially since he agrees

56k

07-17-2007, 03:43 AM

Yes, at high levels of play Jiggs has many nasty tricks against Fox

What tricks? Certainly not uthrow rest.

Plus fox should almost never get himself rested against jiggs. up throw to rest doesnt really happen at high levels of play.

*agrees*

The only good things Jiggly has against fox are mid-air uair rest setups and gimpy edgeguarding.

Jigglypuff gets raped by Fox. It doesn't help that Fox is the best vertical killer and Jigglypuff is the most easily vertically killed.