The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Pat/Pro]

What tricks? Certainly not uthrow rest.



*agrees*

The only good things Jiggly has against fox are mid-air uair rest setups and gimpy edgeguarding.

Jigglypuff gets raped by Fox. It doesn't help that Fox is the best vertical killer and Jigglypuff is the most easily vertically killed.

troof...

And dont trust red dragons opinion over mine here. I play fox he plays samus. Watch the video of ken playing killa or for a textbook session on how to destroy jiggly with fox. Even back then they knew how to rape jiggly with fox.

Jiggly does however do pretty well against falco.

[56k]

I was just coping the link from Youtube when you posted that haha.

Ken (Fox) vs KillaOR (Jigglypuff)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2ue_gdAGG1w

[Del Money]

Ive seen kings videos. But most jiggly players will tell you that fox and marth are the two best jiggly counters and they both do extremely well against her.

Fox can kill her with an upsmash when she is as low as 60 something percent before the hit. Upthrow to u air is death to jiggly. You can get them by taking advantage of jiggs slow speed or through things like down air to grab. If jiggs misses a rest against fox she is screwed. You can either rack up damage with lasers then follow it up with a fully charged up smash or take the lasers to down air to up throw up air approach. Plus its not hard to laser camp jiggly either with fox.

And struggling against peach as for ICs isnt potential. Its a reality. Peach is probably the IC's biggest counter. Ask jsut about any good IC and they will tell you how hard peach is for them. I dont want to go into detail but it mostly has to do with the fact that the IC's aerial game is weak and her downsmash breaks up the ICs really well. Jiggs can be good against the ICs because you can get easy rests on nana and if jiggs gets nana off the stage she can kill her and there is nothing you can do about it by wop or even just f airs. Plus she rapes the ICs recovery. I dont know much about jiggs vs ics thats just what I have been told.

well yeah but im a fox player and rarely use up smash anyways. the situation rarely calls for it. up+air on jiggs is instant death. and theres laser camping, but jiggly's A-button-based moveset just screams "multiple small hits into combos" and especially for the fast-fallers and larger characters, this helps jiggs alot. fox is superior but jiggs isnt nearly half as helpless as everyone seems.

as for ICs, i wouldnt know much about how peach compares so i cant really say. i only knew one person who was good at ICs and absolutely destroy a good sheik, had somewhat even matches against my fox, and my DK usually beat him by a slim margin. of course that doesnt really prove much but i thought id put it out there

[Pat/Pro]

ICs do really well against shiek. Its potentially her biggest counter. She is one of the only characters a lone IC can chaingrab. And her moves dont break them up very well. Yeah but watch that vid he posted.

[Del Money]

@Pat/Pro

though this may mean nothing, how you explain the ICs struggle with my DK like i describe before?

[56k]

well yeah but im a fox player and rarely use up smash anyways. the situation rarely calls for it.

Start using it. It you're a true Fox player there should be a little dent in your controller right above the c-stick ;)

[Del Money]

Start using it. It you're a true Fox player there should be a little dent in your controller right above the c-stick ;)

like i said, for me the situation rarely calls for it. i use n-airs and short-hop n-airs much more with fox. the up smashes usually happen for me against fast fallers, occassionally sheiks, and edgeguarding n00bs

[Pat/Pro]

Yeah you have to use up smash with fox. Its like required haha. Running jc into an upsmash is like a fox staple. plus shine combos against shieks and peaches should almost always lead into an upsmash.

But I dont know why you did well. But I know that DK does reasonably well against ICs because he is able to keep spacing with his backair very well. it reaches farther than their aerials thus making it harder to approach. Also he is very hard to kill horizontally being such a heavy character which is the way most ICs kill. I use Fox Ics and shiek as my tournament characters and always use either shiek or fox on dk so I dont really know the matchup very well.

here is an example of a dk almost beating an ic that is better than them. (dont yell at me for saying chu is better than bum because he is)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w-LJ7KAEy-k

[56k]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A_EA7PQR55Q&mode=related&search=

*runs*

[Pat/Pro]

Haha I was there. That was so funny. It was pretty much understood that Chu was gonna get "japed" that match.

[trademark0013]

If I descirbe the things I like about a character, can you guys help me pick one?

wrong thread for that buddy

[mood4food77]

ICs can't CT samus at all
they can CT jiggs only with dthrow-fair (but it's easily escaped)
ICs can CT peach and marth but it's insanely hard to do it

ganon also is a big IC counter since he is the micheal jackson of smash...XD, but he is the only character that ICs have a problem with that they can also CT

they counter sheik, the only character to do so
fox is even with them
i think they are a falco counterpick, if not it's even
they rape falcon...no doubt
doc and mario can give trouble, but ICs still have advantage
then everything below, i'm pretty sure ICs rape them all, maybe with the links giving them the most trouble

[BigRick]

IC's don't rape Falcon.

He's more mobile than them
Beats em in the air
Has safe (ungrabable) patterns
Able to split em when they're grounded with either knee, stomp, raptor
Effective nana killer

[56k]

IC's do rape Falcon.

However, I think Fox has advantage vs IC. Fox is one of the main reasons I don't play IC anymore (Marth is the other reason)

[BigRick]

IC's do rape Falcon.

Well, is there sumting false in the points that I've mentionned???

You say that Fox has the advantage over IC's... while he has the same 5 things in that matchup:

He's more mobile than them
Beats em in the air
Has safe (ungrabable) patterns
Able to split em when they're grounded
Effective nana killer

[mood4food77]

ICs rape falcon, falcon must seperate the ICs to actually do good, ICs just need one grab on falcon

the ICs job is alot easier than falcon's job

fox has the advantage over ICs cause of the shine, and it's only on small stages and scrolling stages

also, falcon can't split them up as easily as fox, and falcon's kill move isn't as good as fox's

fox is also much harder to grab than falcon and much harder to CT

[Phen]

Falcon is a tough match for ICs, assuming they know how to play against ICs.
I find Fox to be an even matchup, though. Falcon can stay safely out of grab range, while Fox has to get closer.

Most Falcons don't know the matchup though and will probably just take FD.

[mood4food77]

i'm pretty sure anyone with common knowledge will never take ICs to FD, they'll take them to pokefloats or rainbow cruise, in which they can't CT, possibly even onett (if it's not banned)

only isai and azen have beaten chu's ICs, no other falcon has, they usually get raped

[Phen]

you're ridiculous, of course only other top players will beat a top player. -.-

[BigRick]

ICs rape falcon, falcon must seperate the ICs to actually do good, ICs just need one grab on falcon

Well this is the case for everyone that can't play keepaway against the ICs kinda like Samus. ICs just need one grab to take a stock off every1 thx to Wobbling now

the ICs job is alot easier than falcon's job

It's not easy to grab Falcon... not only he's mobile and can play runaway effectively. But knee and dair also give him frame advantage

fox has the advantage over ICs cause of the shine, and it's only on small stages and scrolling stages

I would say that it has much more to do with his mobility. Falco also has the shine but he has much more trouble agaisnt ICs.

also, falcon can't split them up as easily as fox, and falcon's kill move isn't as good as fox's

That, I will give it to you. But my point isn't that Falcon beats ICs, it's that he doesn't get raped by them.

fox is also much harder to grab than falcon and much harder to CT

True that Fox is harder to grab... but wobbling negates the 2nd point



So that's why I feel that ICs beat Falcon, but don't have a huge advantage over him.

[Phen]

overall, if the falcon knows how to avoid grabs he has the advantage.
that's all there is to it.

[Brookman]

Falcon does fine vs. ICs. Another way to put it would be to say that the match up isn't any harder for falcon than any of his other match ups.

[REDRAGON]

I thought i just read somewhere that Chu has never lost to a Falcon except Azen and i think Isai...

Btw you all that think Fox is harder for Jiggs then Marth, read this

"Jigglypuff may not be the most common of tournament characters, but she never-
theless packs her fair share of power when wielded correctly. With proper
spacing and timing, her characteristic "wall of pain" and powerful, high-
priority aerial game can allow her to hold some degree of control over the
match. In addition, Jigglypuff can very easily take advantage of your recovery,
dragging you down to your death with neutral-aerials or simply batting you away
with a well-placed back-aerial. The smart Fox player also must not entirely
discount Jigglypuff's arsenal of Rest combos, which severely punish you for any
botched spacing, missed shuffles or L-cancels, predictable techs, or missed DI.
These facts may seem to paint a grim picture of this match-up; indeed, many
players persist in the notion that Jigglypuff is in some way a suitable counter
to Fox."

From CunningKitsune's guide on Fox in the Fox section

Marth is harder for Jiggs for sure...

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yes, but is he harder than Shiek? Hmm.....

[mood4food77]

jiggs won't move up, why?
fox has the advantage
falco is even
sheik has the advantage
marth counters
peach has a disadvantage
falcon has the advantage
ICs are at a disadvantage
samus is even
doc has the advantage
jiggs is even (duh)
mario is at the disadvantage
ganon has the advantage
link is even
luigi is even
DK is at the disadvantage
roy is even
y. link has the advantage
pika has the advantage
yoshi is countered
zelda is even
g&w is countered
ness is countered
bowser is countered (massively)
kirby is countered
pichu is at the disadvantage
mewtwo is countered


now why should jiggs move up with so little good match-ups

[Pat/Pro]

Stop saying fox vs shiek is even haha. No one believes that but you. It is defintielyin foxs favor not by alot by definitely in his favor.

And yes sonic fox is much harder for jiggs than shiek. Top jiggs have found new ways to get alot of easy rests of shiek. And how long ago was that guide written anyways dragon. There is no way in hell jiggs is a fox counter.

The IC vs Cf can really go either way but I would still say its in ICs favor. people forget just how mobile the ics are.

[REDRAGON]

Stop saying fox vs shiek is even haha. No one believes that but you. It is defintielyin foxs favor not by alot by definitely in his favor.

And yes sonic fox is much harder for jiggs than shiek. Top jiggs have found new ways to get alot of easy rests of shiek. And how long ago was that guide written anyways dragon. There is no way in hell jiggs is a fox counter.

The IC vs Cf can really go either way but I would still say its in ICs favor. people forget just how mobile the ics are.

It is a very old guide, but its still accurate.....
Marth is harder then fox for for Jiggs......

Why is Roy above Pika and Y.link on the tier list???
They are better characters overall, and seem to have better matchups, not to mention, Pikas and Y.link do better in tourneys.....
Anyone know?

[-Darc-]

Plus fox should almost never get himself rested against jiggs. up throw to rest doesnt really happen at high levels of play.

Kekekekekekeke

[mood4food77]

it usually doesn't happen, we've established that, but crazier rest combo's happer more (uthrow, bair, uair, bair, uair, rest, etc)

[-Darc-]

it usually doesn't happen, we've established that, but crazier rest combo's happer more (uthrow, bair, uair, bair, uair, rest, etc)

I know. I play Jiggs.

I was hoping someone would get the joke because I'm known in NE for getting a lot of up-throw rests.

[Pat/Pro]

Kekekekekekeke

I shouldve put unless your playing darc because he is so uber l33t. Darc please say something on the issue about saying that fox is hard to play please haha.

[-Darc-]

But I like playing against Fox ;_;
Some foxes at least.

Other foxes I hate. >_>

[Del Money]

ICs have slight advantage over falcon. marth is harder on jiggs than fox. fox vs sheik is almost even with fox slightly on top. those are facts

EDIT: oh and fox vs ICs is slightly in fox's favor, unless hes grabbed or off the edge (like all the fast-fallers)

[WFL]

ICs can't CT samus at all
they can CT jiggs only with dthrow-fair (but it's easily escaped)
ICs can CT peach and marth but it's insanely hard to do it

ganon also is a big IC counter since he is the micheal jackson of smash...XD, but he is the only character that ICs have a problem with that they can also CT

You just said it's possible to chaingrab Peach, who is a IC counter, but then you say Gannon is the only character that gives them trouble that they can chaingrab.

Contradict yourself much?

[B0mbe1c]

The list is fine, since Falco/fox are most used characters and are really used. I am a falco user myself.

[mood4food77]

ganon is easily CGed, peach can escape CGs

yea i kinda contradicted myself, oh well...deal with it

fox vs. ICs is even except on YS, FoD, rainbow cruise, pokefloats, brinstar, and onett, which are all in fox's favor slightly, i think bigger stages are in ICs favor (like FD, battlefield, dreamland, DK 64), but the moving stages and brinstar are the stages that make the most effect on the match-up (no CT for ICs...)

[Del Money]

ganon is easily CGed, peach can escape CGs

yea i kinda contradicted myself, oh well...deal with it

fox vs. ICs is even except on YS, FoD, rainbow cruise, pokefloats, brinstar, and onett, which are all in fox's favor slightly, i think bigger stages are in ICs favor (like FD, battlefield, dreamland, DK 64), but the moving stages and brinstar are the stages that make the most effect on the match-up (no CT for ICs...)

um close but no. fox is relentless on platform levels against ICs and cause separation must more, in wide open levels theres closer to even but fox still has the slight advantage

[56k]

You just said it's possible to chaingrab Peach, who is a IC counter, but then you say Gannon is the only character that gives them trouble that they can chaingrab.

Contradict yourself much?

Umm...being able to chaingrab a character doesn't define counters and advantages.

Going by your logic, Mario would have the advantage over Fox and Falco :laugh:

[mood4food77]

it's only in ICs case

if they can't CT you....you'll do fine, if they can, you're pretty much screwed

[Del Money]

oh and on a side note i dont think mindgames should contribute to advantages and disadvantages. i think it should be completely moveset-based and characters physics (i.e. short hops, wavedashes, etc). mindgames are more of a specific player's playing style rather than character ability