The 2006-2008 Tier list [Archive] - Page 76

trademark0013

07-30-2007, 02:09 AM

I still disagree with Peach having an advantage over Jiggs. Because they're both floaties and have crazy recovery distance, they can both survive for a long time. However, it's harder for Jiggs to WoP a Peach because of her recovery. Also against Peach, Jiggs doesn't have many kill moves until you get to higher percentages except for fsmash, uair, and rest. Peach has her aerials, dsmash, and throws at a high enough percentage. That's my opinion.

u disagree with peach haivn the advantage... but.. this post explains how she does... wth?

Eci4

07-30-2007, 02:10 AM

Chaingrabin, range, edguarding, combos

Edgegaurding, chaingrabbing, and combos all become much harder to pull off when a falco player presses y, b, and then down multiple times.

Chain grabs only work on Final Destination because falco can DI onto platforms fairly well. This isn't always good though as it can often set up for up tilts and tips. It's also fairly difficult to get a grab on falco

Falco can combo marth too, so you can't argue comboing as one of marths victories over falco, it is something they both have.

Marth's range is beat by falco's lasers.

Lastly is marth's edgeguarding, and yes, Marth can do that. The fact that falco has bad recovery makes it that much easier.

Falco however can be so disruptive that Marth can't really do anything but shield, and that is when the falco player starts a pillar. Honestly, because of lasers, falco has marth beat.

REDRAGON

07-30-2007, 02:16 AM

Edgegaurding, chaingrabbing, and combos all become much harder to pull off when a falco player presses y, b, and then down multiple times.

Chain grabs only work on Final Destination because falco can DI onto platforms fairly well. This isn't always good though as it can often set up for up tilts and tips. It's also fairly difficult to get a grab on falco

Falco can combo marth too, so you can't argue comboing as one of marths victories over falco, it is something they both have.

Marth's range is beat by falco's lasers.

Lastly is marth's edgeguarding, and yes, Marth can do that. The fact that falco has bad recovery makes it that much easier.

Falco however can be so disruptive that Marth can't really do anything but shield, and that is when the falco player starts a pillar. Honestly, because of lasers, falco has marth beat.

Chaingrabs work on any stage cause even if they go to a platform, they will get hit with up-tilts and smash tipper..

combos might go even, but just because falco can be combod easily i think it goes in Marth favor.

A good Marth will play offensive vs falco so lasers are limited, and Marths sword gives him the range advantage.

On the stats it may look close, but ask pretty much any pro, and they will tell you that Marth has the advantage, its small but its there..

Eci4

07-30-2007, 02:19 AM

56k

07-30-2007, 02:21 AM

A good Marth will play offensive vs falco so lasers are limited, and Marths sword gives him the range advantage.

Playing offensive vs a Falco isn't always the best thing to do, 9 times out of ten you're running straight into a combo from Falco. How does playing offensive limit Falco's lasers? He can just back away and continue to laser.

REDRAGON

07-30-2007, 02:25 AM

If pretty much every pro would say marth has the advantage, and the tierlist was created by the pros (backroom=pros) then why is falco ahead of marth?

also, it isn't always possible to chaingrab on stages with platforms because if you DI onto the platform, and then tech away you can often get away from tilts.

The matchup is close, but I maintain it is in Falco's favor (not that it really matters)

first off, just because one character has the advantage does not mean they should go above the other.......
second, if you look back when people made there own tier list every one put Falco as 4th or at least below Marth.
Ask people dude, EVERYONE knows that the age of Falco has past....
btw, do you watch ANY videos of ssbm??? Marth always pwns falco.....

no offense, but you need to check your info before saying stuff like this...

56k

07-30-2007, 02:28 AM

no offense, but you need to check your info before saying stuff like this...

Roy does do pretty well vs falco/fox as far as i know.....

>___________________________>

Sometimes the best thing to do is take your own advice :laugh:

Eci4

07-30-2007, 02:34 AM

I mostly just play the game... and to say that videos mean anything says that everyone has the same skill level.

Also, as for the people posting their own tierlist, which one of them was a pro? I know some of these people are respected in their own smash communities, but that does not make them pro.

I know I'm not known or anything though, and I will admit, I do not know the marth/falco matchup.

Lastly, for some reason i was thinking that the tier list right now read Fox, Falco, Marth (but I now realize sheik is in between the two) but if it had been as I said, then yes, the Falco/Marth matchup would equal their ranking between 2nd and 3rd (sorry though this was my mistake)

I may be a bit biased to saying falco is better though as MN has so many falcos and so few (currently active) marths.

Now however, we are talking less and less on the matchup, and more on each other's credibility, which really doesn't matter. I don't see how the tier list really matters (says an original Ness main who switched to Fox)

Play who you can win with, and know your matchups for counterpicks. I'm going to quit posting here though because I really don't care about the tierlist. I know who is good (and all of the top 5 are good) I know who I like (I happen to like fox) and I know who I'll counterpick with.

REDRAGON

07-30-2007, 02:39 AM

>___________________________>

Sometimes the best thing to do is take your own advice :laugh:

Whats wrong with what i said???

To end the Falco vs Marth argument, i went to the falco guide and found this:
"Falco: 50% Marth: 50% (Pretty even and common fight, though marth has a slight advantage)"

score one for the boys back home!!!

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 02:42 AM

he's pointing out to what you said about roy

roy gets butt raped by fox/falco pretty much, but does better agaisnt them than most low tiers

you said roy can handle them....

Smooth_One

07-30-2007, 02:43 AM

Yeah because opinions matter like, tons.

Hey Mood, does Ganon do particularly better in any matchup than Falcon would? I would think Ganon is generally better against floaties...?

REDRAGON

07-30-2007, 02:57 AM

The reasons i say Roy "can handle" Fox is this:

1) Roy being a fast faller with decent weight does not die off the top easy, where fox gets most of his kills.
2) Roy can chaingrab Fox easy to a forward smash.
3) Roys down-tilt sets up an easy aerial or forward smash on Fox.
4) Roy can edgeguard the crap outta Fox with Down b and charge B.
5) Roys DED works wonders on Fox because he is a fast faller.

in short: Roy can kill fox pretty easy(usually a high weakness for him) and Roy does not die very easy in this fight...

I am not saying he has the advantage, buts its closer then some think...

Pat/Pro

07-30-2007, 03:49 AM

If pretty much every pro would say marth has the advantage, and the tierlist was created by the pros (backroom=pros) then why is falco ahead of marth?

also, it isn't always possible to chaingrab on stages with platforms because if you DI onto the platform, and then tech away you can often get away from tilts.

The matchup is close, but I maintain it is in Falco's favor (not that it really matters)

Pretty much every pro would consider marth to have a slight advantage over falco. The reason he is behind him is because the tier list is old and outdated. Just like when shiek was in first and then everyone was like wait a second these space animals are pretty good. And someone can still counter someone even if they are ahead of them on the tier list so that logic is pretty much out the window. The advantage is slight though.

kenny10

07-30-2007, 07:07 AM

Yeah. Those Ken v. PC matches is another great example on how a Marth has a slight advantage over a Falco even if he has lasers. It's pretty easy to dodge those lasers and Falco players don't really want to SHL into a Marth's face just to be killed by a tipper. That's one of Marth's biggest factors, the ability to kill just about anyone at a low percentage with a single tipper. Also, Falco has some good combos but they're easy to DI out of if you know what your doing.

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 10:37 AM

ganon does better against peach, i think all pokes (jiggs may be an exception), zelda, luigi, ICs, and DK

they pretty much rape the rest of the low tiers, and falcon does better against most of the high tiers

roy against fox

roy is shine bait, his recovery sucks
roy can die easily off the top, he's not that much of a fastfaller (and weight has an effect of the percent it needs to kill off the top)
roy can't CG
roy's dtilt is easily CC
roy lacks kill moves
his DED is not as good as marth's, at most, you will only hit 3 times
roy can't edgegaurd fox like fox can edgegaurd roy
and fox can run circles around roy
also, roy's not the fastest thing in the world

roy dies easily, he's an easy character to shine spike, remember roy does have the worst recovery in the game

why roy gets pretty much raped by fox

falco isn't easy for marth, but it's in marth's favor, more like 6-4

doc...what about him? anyone else know...XD

REDRAGON

07-30-2007, 01:38 PM

roy against fox

roy is shine bait, his recovery sucks
roy can die easily off the top, he's not that much of a fastfaller (and weight has an effect of the percent it needs to kill off the top)
roy can't CG
roy's dtilt is easily CC
roy lacks kill moves
his DED is not as good as marth's, at most, you will only hit 3 times
roy can't edgegaurd fox like fox can edgegaurd roy
and fox can run circles around roy
also, roy's not the fastest thing in the world

roy dies easily, he's an easy character to shine spike, remember roy does have the worst recovery in the game

why roy gets pretty much raped by fox

True his recovery sucks, but that by NO means makes his easy shine bait.......think about it..
Roy has average weight, but falls the 4th fastest making him die off the top hard(check your factsbefore saying stuff like that)
Roy can CG(I know its not as good as Marths, but he can it)
Roys dtilt is one of is great moves and used quite by the pros, who cares of it can be cc? IT rarely is, and its great for combos and smashes..
Roy DED is better then Marths because it has more power. Its speed and power, along with the fact that Fox cant really get out of it, makes it a GREAT killing move.
Roy edge guarding is great against Fox. The shine is great, but situational, while Roy has a move for every situation.
Fox is darn fast, but Roy has great running speed, great wd, great shffls, and longgrab range which all hurt Fox.

Roy does better then people think against Fox
case closed

Binx

07-30-2007, 01:50 PM

For one of the first times I really do agree with redragon, Roy is at a disadvantage assuming both players know the matchup, and I have deffinately had an easier time shine spiking Roy than say Marth, but he doesnt do that poorly against fox. I pretty much replace the A button with the B button when I play roy and it works pretty well for me just spam tons of f-b and some down tilts with neatral airs and the occasional neatral b edgegaurd or counter edgegaurd and it makes it a pretty even matchup.

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 04:17 PM

someone had a thread about vertical kills

i think he dies at a lower percent than samus does off the top, or around the same percent (Samus' fatness saves her)

StripesOrBars

07-30-2007, 05:00 PM

I really think there should be one more tier list update.

There's a few things that need to be changed.

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 05:06 PM

yes, there are, we need more tiers...i've suggested this since this one came out

StripesOrBars

07-30-2007, 05:21 PM

Another tier would be perfect.

Something like this

TOP
Marth
Fox

TOP2
Falco
Shiek

HIGH
Peach
Falcon
Gannon
ICs

MIDDLE
Samus
Jiggz
Doc
Luigi
Mario

LOW
Link
DK
Ness
Pika
Young Link
G&W

GARBAGE
Yoshi
Zelda
Roy
Bowser
Mew2
Pichu
Kirby

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 05:25 PM

i was thinking

top:
fox
marth
sheik

upper:
falco
peach
ICs
falcon

high:
samus
ganon
doc
mario
jiggs

mid:
DK
luigi
link

low:
y. link
pika
roy

lower:
g&w
yoshi
ness
zelda

bottom:
bowser
mewtwo
pichu
kirby

Aesir

07-30-2007, 05:55 PM

^ I disagree with that list so much its not even funny. >_>

You have to set guidelines on what your list is is measuring you can't just pop out a list without any backing towards it. Why on doodahs list is Marth top tier but on yours its Fox. You have to have some sort of guideline like either A. Tourney results B. human potential.

Something like that. <_<

I think if you were basing it off of, the current metagame it would be Marth Fox for top. But if you were going off human potential, it wuold probably be Sheik marth.

Del Money

07-30-2007, 05:57 PM

i agree with mood4food77 except for Dk being above link. unless there is no particular order to that list

ZoSo

07-30-2007, 06:02 PM

Sadly, the current tier list made more sense when there was a God Tier.

Case in point: Falcon is not a Middle Tier character.

TOP:

Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik

UPPER:

Peach
ICs
Falcon

HIGH:

Samus
Ganondorf
Jiggs
Doc
Mario

MIDDLE:

DK
Luigi
Link

LOW:

Pikachu
Young Link
Roy

LOWER:

Ness
Zelda
Yoshi
G&W

BOTTOM:

Bowser
Mewtwo
Pichu
Kirby

StripesOrBars

07-30-2007, 06:39 PM

At least we all agree that Kirby is teh suck.

Samochan

07-30-2007, 06:50 PM

At least we all agree that Kirby is teh suck.

Or it just might be your imagination, cause I still don't agree. >_> But it really doesn't matter anyway, since the bottoms are very close in being sucky characters and the tier placement is really what matters, not where they stack inside tiers, cept maybe mewtwo who's imo, lower tier material (yes, I look at Taj, but also other players like Nihonjin and Ek, plus some else maybe who I'm not that familiar with). But that's just my point of view, though I like how KKK owns with his kirby. :3 It would be ignorant to ignore that when we see other one man army's out there when it comes to low tiers. >_>

Del Money

07-30-2007, 07:02 PM

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

i've posted that tier list like 8 times pretty much

every time, people have agreed with it...i don't feel like making the same reasons again and again

Samochan

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

@Samochan
lol you said "ignorant to ignore" hehe. but seriously, those one man armies rely more on standing player skills (wavedashing, L-canceling, dashdancing, etc) more than they do on the characters actual meta-game. and those one-man armies have developed those skills to dominate on higher tier character players. if for instance, any low-tier were up against a high-tier and wavedashing, dashdancing, and L-canceling were disallowed for both players, the high-tier character would in most cases win.

Huh, what..? That doesn't make any sense. >_> That's like talking about ssbm without any kind of techs, on a noob level, where peach and sheik would win by spamming stuff.

And it's definitely not all about techniques you know. I know the word "mindgames" is overused term, but it's a simple word to describe the mind factor of the game. I don't see how KKK could actually own someone with simple techs, seeing as kirby doesn't have that much, other than spacing, swallowcide and roll/sidesteps, stuff like that. >_> Playing smart is part of players skills and that's what mostly determines how good the player actually is. Everyone can learn techs with practice, but not everyone play really smart like the pro's do. Not everyone even have the mindset to do that.

Techs don't have much to do with how much Taj, Gimpy, KKK and other low tier players own. Everyone good enough know their techs and their characters, but the deciding factor is the ability to play smart. Falco can decide to shffle dair shine dair my shield if he wants, but if he's nothing more than a tech god and gets caught on parasol from shield, then I proceed to land and watch what he's doing and punish... doesn't really give him the edge in the fight. >_>

And every character has their own unique metagame. Or do I suddenly see a peach randomly shffling nairs all over the place, or pichu sidestepping and rolling around and trying to tilt everyone in sight? Didn't think so either. I can also see KKK abusing kirby's good evasive abilities to it's fullest when he plays, which is part of kirby's metagame, along with swallowciding etc.

StripesOrBars

07-30-2007, 11:28 PM

Huh, what..? That doesn't make any sense. >_> That's like talking about ssbm without any kind of techs, on a noob level, where peach and sheik would win by spamming stuff.

And it's definitely not all about techniques you know. I know the word "mindgames" is overused term, but it's a simple word to describe the mind factor of the game. I don't see how KKK could actually own someone with simple techs, seeing as kirby doesn't have that much, other than spacing, swallowcide and roll/sidesteps, stuff like that. >_> Playing smart is part of players skills and that's what mostly determines how good the player actually is. Everyone can learn techs with practice, but not everyone play really smart like the pro's do. Not everyone even have the mindset to do that.

Techs don't have much to do with how much Taj, Gimpy, KKK and other low tier players own. Everyone good enough know their techs and their characters, but the deciding factor is the ability to play smart. Falco can decide to shffle dair shine dair my shield if he wants, but if he's nothing more than a tech god and gets caught on parasol from shield, then I proceed to land and watch what he's doing and punish... doesn't really give him the edge in the fight. >_>

And every character has their own unique metagame. Or do I suddenly see a peach randomly shffling nairs all over the place, or pichu sidestepping and rolling around and trying to tilt everyone in sight? Didn't think so either. I can also see KKK abusing kirby's good evasive abilities to it's fullest when he plays, which is part of kirby's metagame, along with swallowciding etc.

Look, Kirby is the worst, no way around it.

He's light, has NO kill moves that kill under 120%.

Leaving the only way for him to get reliable kills through his horrible edgeguarding game.

He also has low priority, laggy attacks, and his throws don't set him up for anything.

And who the hell is KKK and Gimpy?

Exactly.

JUST A PIECE OF MEAT!!

07-30-2007, 11:29 PM

At least we all agree that Kirby is teh suck.

LOL your too funny doodah.

KIRBY SUCKS he should be last in the tiers.

mood4food77

07-30-2007, 11:50 PM

yea, he sucks....literally

you don't know GIMPY...i mean he's the one who created the name boozer pretty much

and KKK is krazy kirby kid i think, the best kirby there is

BigRick

07-31-2007, 01:30 AM

Hmm KKK seems to do better than Gimpy though...

His style is extremely gay, he camps the ledge like 80% of the time lol

56k

07-31-2007, 01:34 AM

You're kidding, right? Gimpy removed all four of Da****ingShizWiz's stock during crews, and he beat DoH in pools among other things at FCD. I know KKK beat Caveman and Rob$, but...it's DaShizWiz!

mood4food77

07-31-2007, 01:35 AM

dashizwiz, the best falco in the US now

BigRick

07-31-2007, 01:37 AM

You're kidding, right? Gimpy removed all four of Da****ingShizWiz's stock during crews, and he beat DoH in pools among other things at FCD. I know KKK beat Caveman and Rob$, but...it's DaShizWiz!

LOL lets play devil's advocate here

1) him beating the shiz doesn't rly count cause its a crew battle
2) him beating DoH in pools is only because Bowser > Peach... or else we wouldn't have that many Mario Bros. videogames