The 2006-2008 Tier list

[StripesOrBars]

Fox does the best in tourneys, so yes, he's that good.

No he doesn't, Shiek and Falco do waaaaay better. The SBR members are wrong.


Word, Fox doesn't > Sheik, it's a very close match. I myself say it's even.
Only IC and Falco "clearly" > Sheik


Well in Shiek VS Falco you have to look at what Shiek has.

PROS
She can duck under SHLs.

Has without a doubt the most options at ledeguarding Falco(Needles, Fair, DSmash, Nair, and if you must her chain). Which means low % kills(not like Marth vs Falco but she comes a close 2nd).


High percentage kills with one forward tilt to Fair.


CONS
****ed by shine combos.

..........



So in the end Shiek has more going for her with those 2 things than anyother character(=Marth). Plus the shine combo con I gave basically applies to all characters save for maybe Jiggs, ICs, and Peach(except on DreamLand64)and random crap characters.

More whinnage IMO. It's just an uphill battle for Shiek.

[BigRick]

I've been sigged... kool

I just wanna add a lil' sumtin to this discussion... The SBR said that the Tier List is based on the current metagame, which is how well a character would do in a tourney, but you guys keep talkin about tourney results.

Tourney results is something that affect the metagame, because they're actual proof that show which chars dominate, but there is more...

- The current character population
- Counters and char specific tactics
- The achieved potential of certain chars

The easiest exemple to point this out would be Fox and Falco. They are probably the most played characters right now, meaning that there will more chances to face one of these two in a tourney. Even though someone doesn't main them, he could have one of these two as a solid secondary. So basically how well a character will place in a tourney is heavily influenced by how well he can do against the space animals : a good reason why Sheik, Marth and Peach are high tier is because they are good choices against Fox and Falco. One reason why Fox and Falco would be considered top tier is because they logically go even with themselves, so you can fight fire with fire.

Characters that have a lot of potential, like Ganon and Link, have trouble against FFS, so they end up being middle of the road guys in the metagame, even though they have some favorable matchups against chars that are ranked higher.

As an example, if a Ganon player enters a 32-man tourney with 10 foxes in it and 8 shieks, he would probably have alot of trouble going far. But if instead he faces matchups that are less difficult, like 10 Peaches and 8 Samus, then his chances would probably increase...

Just my 2 cents,
Peace out

[THE RAGE!!!]

The tier list is based on major tournaments well all of the players are at a highly competitive playing level...
The tier list is a measure of how characters stack up in tournament play according to the current metagame.

No...Level 9 computers don't understand the potential of their own character, they were programmed to do oh so little.

Welcome to smashboards, be sure to post after you actually learn something.

It doesn't matter if the don't understand their character's potential what matters is that there at the same skill level & since you know they are the same skill level you can tell that if a certain character win's it is because that charcter is better than the other or it might just be luck so to lesson the chance that it's just luck you could average the results from say 100 matches you would get a pretty clear picture of what charcter's better

[StripesOrBars]

It doesn't matter if the don't understand their character's potential what matters is that there at the same skill level & since you know they are the same skill level you can tell that if a certain character win's it is because that charcter is better than the other or it might just be luck so to lesson the chance that it's just luck you could average the results from say 100 matches you would get a pretty clear picture of what charcter's better

The tier list is based on major tournaments well all of the players are at a highly competitive playing level...
The tier list is a measure of how characters stack up in tournament play according to the current metagame.

No...Level 9 computers don't understand the potential of their own character, they were programmed to do oh so little.

Welcome to smashboards, be sure to post after you actually learn something.

[Umbreon]

I've been sigged... kool

I just wanna add a lil' sumtin to this discussion... The SBR said that the Tier List is based on the current metagame, which is how well a character would do in a tourney, but you guys keep talkin about tourney results.

Tourney results is something that affect the metagame

IMO the metagame should affect the tournament results.

[BigRick]

IMO the metagame should affect the tournament results.

Actually they affect each other... it is some kind of vicious cycle:

Some characters place well in tourneys because of the metagame, and these characters that do well end up being played more often, thus affecting the metagame.

[THE RAGE!!!]

The tier list is based on major tournaments well all of the players are at a highly competitive playing level...
The tier list is a measure of how characters stack up in tournament play according to the current metagame.

No...Level 9 computers don't understand the potential of their own character, they were programmed to do oh so little.

Welcome to smashboards, be sure to post after you actually learn something.

do you have your own voice?

[CodeBlue]

IMO the metagame should affect the tournament results.
I would tend to agree.

From Wiki: Metagame, literally "a game outside the game," is a prediction of how others will make decisions in a game based on their personality or their previous decisions.

Which is why we see so many of the more experienced gamers doing better because they know what options their opponents have and act in such a way to counter those options.

[mcc]

Well in Shiek VS Falco you have to look at what Shiek has.

PROS
She can duck under SHLs.

Has without a doubt the most options at ledeguarding Falco(Needles, Fair, DSmash, Nair, and if you must her chain). Which means low % kills(not like Marth vs Falco but she comes a close 2nd).


High percentage kills with one forward tilt to Fair.
she can't duck under SHLs

a lot of characters have a lot of options for ledgeguarding. and i don't think nair should be there

for high % kills, how about a bair for falco?

[Eci4]

Actually they affect each other... it is some kind of vicious cycle:

Some characters place well in tourneys because of the metagame, and these characters that do well end up being played more often, thus affecting the metagame.

because of the tournament structure I disagree... There are picks and counterpicks, and that kind of destroys metagame adaptation... I mean, if tournaments were you pick one character then stick with that character well then metagame would effect things more...

I mean, you can go into a tournament thinking I'm going to play as marth, but you face up against a sheik first match... if you lose, you counterpick... I mean, you'd know they have a sheik that can beat your marth so you switch..

[BigRick]

because of the tournament structure I disagree... There are picks and counterpicks, and that kind of destroys metagame adaptation... I mean, if tournaments were you pick one character then stick with that character well then metagame would effect things more...

I mean, you can go into a tournament thinking I'm going to play as marth, but you face up against a sheik first match... if you lose, you counterpick... I mean, you'd know they have a sheik that can beat your marth so you switch..

Sry but you are wrong, counterpicking is already considered as a factor in our current metagame. Stage counterpicking is a reason why the Ice Climbers shouldn't be considered higher than medium tier IMO, cause IC players get counterpicked with ugly stages like Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise, which lower their effectiveness.

Back to topic, wouldn't you say then that the better characters in the metagame would be those that have less counterpicks? Fox and Falco provide less options to their opponents to counter them with, making them top tier.

[NJ'zFinest]

The tier list is based on major tournaments well all of the players are at a highly competitive playing level...
The tier list is a measure of how characters stack up in tournament play according to the current metagame.

No...Level 9 computers don't understand the potential of their own character, they were programmed to do oh so little.

Welcome to smashboards, be sure to post after you actually learn something.

haha doodah.

so, um, yea Rage, cpus can't determine anything, only the players who have a mindset and knowledge of the character of their own can. Notice how cpus usually do the same actions regardless of how different the characters are?

I basically said enough in my past post anyways (this is foxandfalco if you didn't realize).

[Umbreon]

Back to topic, wouldn't you say then that the better characters in the metagame would be those that have less counterpicks? Fox and Falco provide less options to their opponents to counter them with, making them top tier.

you can effectively counter fox with marth falco sheik ICs samus peach ect. same for falco.

so if you're not a master IC player, how do you counter sheik? cause sheik is lower in the tier list.

[mcc]

with the exception of marth, I don't see how the characters you listed are counters for fox. can you explain?

[Eci4]

Sry but you are wrong, counterpicking is already considered as a factor in our current metagame. Stage counterpicking is a reason why the Ice Climbers shouldn't be considered higher than medium tier IMO, cause IC players get counterpicked with ugly stages like Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise, which lower their effectiveness.

Back to topic, wouldn't you say then that the better characters in the metagame would be those that have less counterpicks? Fox and Falco provide less options to their opponents to counter them with, making them top tier.

well thats fine, but it just means that the metagame never changes (save for unless new things are learned) IMO there is no metagame for smash... I mean, there are never new things added except for what we learn, and new techniques are so sparse now that it is pretty much set

for there to be a metagame it would mean you could go into any tournament and say I predict a heavy use of this character, and this stage, therefore I will use this character. You cannot go to any tournament and say I predict this because of current metagame... Well you can, you can say I predict multiple foxes, falcos, marths, sheiks, and peaches... but you WILL be able to do that from now on untill people stop having tournaments for the game... there may be a metagame but it is not changing

[BigRick]

you can effectively counter fox with marth falco sheik ICs samus peach ect. same for falco.

so if you're not a master IC player, how do you counter sheik? cause sheik is lower in the tier list.

For the Fox/Falco counters that you listed... aren't most of these matches even?

How to counterpick Sheik if you don't play IC's? This is a nice question since Sheik is my worst matchup lol... It seems that Fox/Falco can do well against Sheik, and that the matchup would be even, even though the ninja is the strongest char in the game IMO. So come to think of it, wouldn't Sheik be one of the reasons why Fox/Falco became top tier? Maybe more ppl might have learned to use Fox/Falco instead of IC's as a secondary so that they can use them against Sheik when in need.

EDIT(To Eci4): Well, it's kinda normal for a game's metagame to reach a certain level of stability when it's been awhile since the game has come out. But I've checked old tier lists and in their differences you can easily say that the metagame has changed during the years.

[Umbreon]

sheik vs fox/falco is even, and you have to be better at fox than your opponent does @ sheik. not a suitable counter. That says that sheik should be higher in the list, yeah?

[AlphaZealot]

Back when I played competitively I use to use Peach, but I picked up the Ice Climbers just to counter Sheiks. Decent Sheiks could take my Peach simply because I sucked in the match up, but when I switched to Ice Climbers the result was entirely differant (so long as it was a neutral stage that isn't Battlefield).

The cg combos on Sheik using the Ice Climbers are just to easy, anyone can learn them, that isn't to say I could take out Isai's Sheik, but most Sheiks I would deal with in tournament could be abused by my Ice Climbers "gayness".

Fox and Falco, as Mow said, are mostly even against Sheik. The favor may be slightly in the Fox/Falco catagory, but I wouldn't say it makes that much of a differance either way.

Fox/Falco versus Ice Climbers is interesting. Aside from Chu Dat, no other Ice Climbers really stands a chance against any of the top notch Fox/Falco players. Its hard to find evidence that the Ice Climbers are a hard counter to either of these characters. Of course you can cite grab combos, but you can do that against almost every character using the Ice Climbers. Falco has more going in beating the Ice Climbers then Fox does (imo), largely because Pillaring does more to break the Ice Climbers up then waveshines ever would. One of the secret keys to beating the Ice Climbers is to keep them at off percentages, Fox is limited in that regard because he doesn't have stun on the shl, although the usmash can easily make up for that.

[StripesOrBars]

she can't duck under SHLs

yes she can.

a lot of characters have a lot of options for ledgeguarding. and i don't think nair should be there

not like the Shiek does. Nair should definitely be there.
for high % kills, how about a bair for falco?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL @ Bair. How about you goto a tournament first b4 you talk and/or play the game one time.

[mcc]

yes she can.


not like the Shiek does. Nair should definitely be there.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL @ Bair. How about you goto a tournament first b4 you talk and/or play the game one time.

no, she can't duck under SHLs. don't even argue about that

why would you need so many different moves for edgeguarding is one or two work well? fair is much better than nair anyways

LOLOLOL you're an idiot. high % = farther knockback = easier kill. even if it doesn't kill, you can edgeguard her, which can lead to a kill

[StripesOrBars]

no, she can't duck under SHLs. don't even argue about that

why would you need so many different moves for edgeguarding is one or two work well? fair is much better than nair anyways

LOLOLOL you're an idiot. high % = farther knockback = easier kill. even if it doesn't kill, you can edgeguard her, which can lead to a kill

I'm not even gonna argue with a n00b. Come back when you goto a tournament.

[mcc]

in other words, you lose

but seriously, if you thought that shiek can duck under SHLs, i think you should be the one going to a tournament

[NJ'zFinest]

in other words, you lose
No, you just did

but seriously, if you thought that shiek can duck under SHLs, i think you should be the one going to a tournament
she "can", of course the falco can aim lower, but the normal SHL height is above sheik's crouch
anyways, stripes has been to tourneys and he's recognized for his skill....while ur a random nobody who is horrible at this game


you lose

[StripesOrBars]

<3 foxandfalco

[mcc]

you mean above shieks crouch?

any falco with a brain would shoot lower if they saw the shiek crouch. your argument is pretty weak if you say that she *can* duck them


just because stripes has been to a tournament doesn't mean everything s/he says is right. that's what's wrong with some of you. you think that the more experienced players can never be proved wrong

[StripesOrBars]

you mean above shieks crouch?

any falco with a brain would shoot lower if they saw the shiek crouch. your argument is pretty weak if you say that she *can* duck them


just because stripes has been to a tournament doesn't mean everything s/he says is right. that's what's wrong with some of you. you think that the more experienced players can never be proved wrong

For Falco to shoot that low is just annoying. It's way easier for a Shiek to just hold down on the control stick than it is for Falco to shoot that low everytime.

Shiek has the easiest time vs Falco(save for Marth once again and maybe Peach and Jiggz). That's the point n00by mc n00b sauce.

[NJ'zFinest]

any falco with a brain would shoot lower if they saw the shiek crouch. your argument is pretty weak if you say that she *can* duck them
But she goes under the normal SHL length. The Falco who's SHLing would have to re-adjust his timing during the match just to hit sheik with lasers. Most Falco's don't bother doing that, it's annoying to do....but I wouldn't assume someone who's never been to a tournament would know.

just because stripes has been to a tournament doesn't mean everything s/he says is right. that's what's wrong with some of you. you think that the more experienced players can never be proved wrong
More like, the more experienced players have...experience to back up their claims.

[Eci4]

Why isnt peach better against falco than sheik is? I really don't have enough experience here, but all falcos I play against are easiest with peach

[StripesOrBars]

Shiek Marth Peach all have the best matchups vs Falco.

[mcc]

But she goes under the normal SHL length. The Falco who's SHLing would have to re-adjust his timing during the match just to hit sheik with lasers. Most Falco's don't bother doing that, it's annoying to do....but I wouldn't assume someone who's never been to a tournament would know.

More like, the more experienced players have...experience to back up their claims.

it's not that hard to adjust the SHL. i doubt that pro falcos would SHL the same height when they see a shiek still and crouching. they're not lazy you know. and by the way, it sound really lame when the only argument you have toward me is "you have never been to a tourney"

so you're saying that just because stripes has experience, that means that he is right that falcos won't bother to SHL a crouching shiek?

[StripesOrBars]

so you're saying that just because stripes has experience, that means that he is right that falcos won't bother to SHL a crouching shiek?

Do you even know what a "pro" is?

And no 9/10 times they won't adjust the SHL. They'll just rush in and attack.

You lost, this argument is done.

[mcc]

OMG i have never been to a tournament, so I dont know what a pro is. haha you are just so funny

which one do you think is a smarter choice?
1. rush in to attack
2. SHL and get free damage

[StripesOrBars]

Whats a pro sir?? Please explain to me what defines a "pro".

And so this thread doesn't get closed becaus eof this n00b:

I'm still trying to figure how Kirby isn't bottom of bottom.

[mcc]

a pro is someone who places well in major tournaments

you never answered my question

[StripesOrBars]

a pro is someone who places well in major tournaments

you never answered my question

LOL exactly you have no idea what you're talking about GG.

[mcc]

please answer my question sir

[StripesOrBars]

LOL it's funny, this tier list is made and it already needs to be changed.

[mcc]

because you refused to answer my question, i will assume you just do not want to admit you are wrong. you can keep ignoring me, that's fine. but i know that you will still read my posts even if you don't reply to them

i think mewtwo should go up

[theultimodragon]

What would be nice is if every character had a more equal chance of winning, mangz.

"Man, that marth got tore up from the flo' up by that pichu"

Hopefully HAL will figure that out in the iteration...

[mcc]

i think they probably tried that but just failed at it. to make everything almost balanced, they would need to play the game for years to find out weaknesses and stuff and then they need to change the character and make sure that what they changed didn't make that character gain an advantage over another character. and putting even more characters in brawl than melee will just make it even harder to balance everyone out